Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver 1.2

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:31 pm

Jeremy, could you expand on point 2 please. Could you clarify the 15khz PWM signal and the difference with the commutation frequency...I've measured single phase on my geared Bafang motor using the 6 fet 116 based controller and it worked out to 111 to 160hz (low and high setting). Where does the 15khz come in, thanks.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:24 pm

NRG wrote:Jeremy, could you expand on point 2 please. Could you clarify the 15khz PWM signal and the difference with the commutation frequency...I've measured single phase on my geared Bafang motor using the 6 fet 116 based controller and it worked out to 111 to 160hz (low and high setting). Where does the 15khz come in, thanks.



The 111 to 160 Hz that you're seeing is the commutation frequency - often referred to as the 'electrical rpm' of the controller/motor combination.

The PWM frequency is the, usually fixed, much higher frequency that the controller uses to control the voltage applied to the motor. This frequency has to be high enough to allow the motor inductance to smooth out the current and so also needs to be significantly higher than the maximum commutation frequency. A ratio of around 10:1 or so is probably about the minimum between PWM and commutation frequency; a higher PWM frequency is better for low inductance motors.

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:29 pm

Thanks Jeremy, I' m still not sure I understand...is this fixed PWM Frequency the sampling frequency? And it has nothing to do with the duty cycle that determines motor speed and current?
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:18 pm

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:47 am

Good find that site - it manages to say clearly with pictures what I was trying to explain (none too clearly!) with words.

It also illustrates another point I was making above about block commutation. The first set of 'scope pictures show block commutation - no PWM, just full voltage applied to each phase as required. The later 'scope pictures show PWM pretty clearly.

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 am

Jeremy I wonder if you could help.

I've been messing about with the parameters on an E-Crazyman 6-fet 116 based controller that's driving an SWXB motor.

I understand the current limit control is crude in operation, however, I'm finding the rated current limit I set in Parameter Designer is about 5amps out IE: if I set a 20amp limit the peak draw measured by my Watts Up is 25amp. I suspected the shunt may have some excess solder and indeed it did on one end, removing as much as I could trimmed about an amp of the 'overshoot'...so I'm wondering how accurate current control is with theses controllers?

Also on another note I've set the phase current at 2.3~2.5x the rated current but I'm not sure if this is 'safe' I've noticed the controller gets quite hot, much hotter than before I started messin' about with the settings...any recommendations for this setting?

Many thanks.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Jeremy Harris » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:23 am

NRG wrote:Jeremy I wonder if you could help.

I've been messing about with the parameters on an E-Crazyman 6-fet 116 based controller that's driving an SWXB motor.

I understand the current limit control is crude in operation, however, I'm finding the rated current limit I set in Parameter Designer is about 5amps out IE: if I set a 20amp limit the peak draw measured by my Watts Up is 25amp. I suspected the shunt may have some excess solder and indeed it did on one end, removing as much as I could trimmed about an amp of the 'overshoot'...so I'm wondering how accurate current control is with theses controllers?

Also on another note I've set the phase current at 2.3~2.5x the rated current but I'm not sure if this is 'safe' I've noticed the controller gets quite hot, much hotter than before I started messin' about with the settings...any recommendations for this setting?

Many thanks.


My experience is that the current limiting accuracy (on the main, software set, current limit) isn't great. +/- 3 to 5 amps is about as good as they get. The main issue seems to be variation in resistance of the whole shunt current path, including how much solder there is on the board 0V trace. I don't really think the current limit needs to be much better than this though, as it's only intended to be a rough setting - I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between 20A and 25A unless they were looking for it.

Setting the phase current for 2.5 times the current limit is OK, but if you are trying to pull 25A from this controller in standard form then it will get warm unless you change the FETs. As standard, they come with either 60NF06 FETs (16 mohm Rdson) or sometimes 75NF75 FETs (13 mohm Rdson). These are quite lossy devices, for example, the IRFB3077 FETs that I'm running in one of these have an Rdson of typically 2.8 mohm. This makes a big difference to how hot they get. For example, 25A through a 60NF06 FET will create around 10 watts of heat (per FET) whereas 25A through an IRFB3077 FET will create about 1.75 watts of heat. The IRFB3077 FETs are good for around 65 to 70V working voltage (they are rated at 75V max) and are a good choice for this controller. Their max current rating is 210A for the silicon, but restricted to 120A by the package. In practice I'd have no qualms at running these FETs at 50A or so in a 6 FET controller, maybe more if the use was such that the controller wasn't being held at high current for long periods of time. A 60V pack with a 50A current limit on one of these controllers fitted with these FETs would be OK for around 3kW peak power, pretty impressive for such a small unit. Change the capacitors to 100V ones (they are usually 63V) and change the FETs for IRFB4110s (100V, about 3.7 mohm Rdson) and you could probably see up to 5kW or so.

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:48 am

Hi Jeremy,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. Seems I may be worrying about the current unduly... what you are saying with regard to the FETs is interesting, my particular controller is populated with IRF3205 FETs, Rdson of 8mohm I think, so with a conservative 20amps they would dissipate approx 3w and ~1w with the IRFB3077, think I'll upgrade and uprate the caps as well.

Thank you!
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby only1jake » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:48 pm

I keep getting an error when I try programming my Lyen 12FET controller.
All I want to do is get on and change the LVC.

When I connect it like it says.
It finds the port now and no yellow mark.
I click transmit and it starts going, but when I hold down the button it says: "Run time error: 8020, Error reading comm device"
What can fix this?

I've tried everything else on all the other threads, just keep getting this.

This is using Lyens setup etc.

Thanks!!
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby only1jake » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:37 pm

FOUND A SOLUTION: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/cooldrives/vista-prolific-chip-driver-for-serial-adapters.zip

This works for any 64bit system.
Fixes error 8020.

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:29 am

Jeremy Harris wrote:
My experience is that the current limiting accuracy (on the main, software set, current limit) isn't great. +/- 3 to 5 amps is about as good as they get. The main issue seems to be variation in resistance of the whole shunt current path, including how much solder there is on the board 0V trace. I don't really think the current limit needs to be much better than this though, as it's only intended to be a rough setting - I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between 20A and 25A unless they were looking for it.

Setting the phase current for 2.5 times the current limit is OK, but if you are trying to pull 25A from this controller in standard form then it will get warm unless you change the FETs. As standard, they come with either 60NF06 FETs (16 mohm Rdson) or sometimes 75NF75 FETs (13 mohm Rdson). These are quite lossy devices, for example, the IRFB3077 FETs that I'm running in one of these have an Rdson of typically 2.8 mohm. This makes a big difference to how hot they get. For example, 25A through a 60NF06 FET will create around 10 watts of heat (per FET) whereas 25A through an IRFB3077 FET will create about 1.75 watts of heat. The IRFB3077 FETs are good for around 65 to 70V working voltage (they are rated at 75V max) and are a good choice for this controller. Their max current rating is 210A for the silicon, but restricted to 120A by the package. In practice I'd have no qualms at running these FETs at 50A or so in a 6 FET controller, maybe more if the use was such that the controller wasn't being held at high current for long periods of time. A 60V pack with a 50A current limit on one of these controllers fitted with these FETs would be OK for around 3kW peak power, pretty impressive for such a small unit. Change the capacitors to 100V ones (they are usually 63V) and change the FETs for IRFB4110s (100V, about 3.7 mohm Rdson) and you could probably see up to 5kW or so.

Jeremy


Hi Jeremy, many thanks again for the help. I've upgraded the controller with Panasonic NHG and IRFB3077 FETs, the FETs seem to have made a difference to the temperature as the controller is now just warm to the touch.

Another question if I may: The LVC setting in PD has gaps in it IE: the voltage selection jumps from 32.5v to 40.5v with nothing in between. I'm running 12x Turnigy cells for 44.4v and would like LVC set around 36~38.5v Is there anyway of achieving this in s/w or does the controller need modding?
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Jeremy Harris » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:58 am

NRG wrote:Hi Jeremy, many thanks again for the help. I've upgraded the controller with Panasonic NHG and IRFB3077 FETs, the FETs seem to have made a difference to the temperature as the controller is now just warm to the touch.

Another question if I may: The LVC setting in PD has gaps in it IE: the voltage selection jumps from 32.5v to 40.5v with nothing in between. I'm running 12x Turnigy cells for 44.4v and would like LVC set around 36~38.5v Is there anyway of achieving this in s/w or does the controller need modding?


It is possible to change the controller LVC by changing some resistor values on the board, but to be honest it isn't that easy (they are surface mount) and the advantage is probably small in terms of enhanced capability. I'd be inclined to leave the controller set for 40.5V with a 12S LiPo pack, but not rely on that as the sole means of protection against a low voltage event, because of the probability of the pack being unbalanced by the time it's discharged to a nominal 3.375V per cell is quite high - the pack is effectively flat when it gets to this point, with a fairly high probability that one or more cells will be lower than the safe limit (you may have, for example, 11 cells at 3.5V and one cell at 2V). If you're concerned about draining the pack that far and having some protection, then the best way to do it would be to fit a simple LVC system to the pack, that will detect a single unbalanced cell and trigger the controller ebrake cut-off. This is a pretty cheap and easy way to have some peace of mind if you have no other way of monitoring discharge. geoff57 has put together some small, cheap LiPo LVC units - see the for sale section.

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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby will_newton » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:40 pm

NRG wrote:Another question if I may: The LVC setting in PD has gaps in it IE: the voltage selection jumps from 32.5v to 40.5v with nothing in between. I'm running 12x Turnigy cells for 44.4v and would like LVC set around 36~38.5v Is there anyway of achieving this in s/w or does the controller need modding?
I think Ed Lyen's version of the software has a complete selection, but you have to buy one of his controllers to get it. Easiest solution is the selectable voltage cutoff on the Cycle Analyst. The best solution is Gary Goodrum's LVC boards, which monitor each individual cell. Between the CA for the total pack and an LVC board on the balance taps, you are more than covered.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:45 am

I can't get parameter design to work.
Some files wont let me extract them they just say "invalid or corupt" and the others give me a warning that just says
" Component 'ComDlg32.OCX' or one of its dependencies not correctly registered: a file is missing or invalid"
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby shorza » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:40 pm

Can someone suggest a safe LVC for my 18s?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the figures, but if I wanted my lvc to be 66v, I would have to program it for 55v?
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby gensem » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:56 pm

I would have to say that a safe way to monitor low voltage is cell based not pack based. If one cell is weaker you might kill it overdischarging.

Battery pack wyse depends on the battery chemistry, lipo, life, etc...
Im gessing lipo because of the 18s
Im not experienced with lipo but I guess 58-60v would be fine. 66v seens a little hi, you might get power cuts due to voltage sag.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby gensem » Wed May 04, 2011 7:24 pm

I have a quick questiin about 3 way switch/throttle %
How does this setting control the max speed?
I dont think its advancing/retarding the timing because that wouldnt work with sensorless hubs. Cant be reducing amps either.
Btw should I expect more heat from the hub running at lets say 60 70%?


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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Arlo1 » Thu May 05, 2011 12:48 am

gensem wrote:I have a quick questiin about 3 way switch/throttle %
How does this setting control the max speed?
I dont think its advancing/retarding the timing because that wouldnt work with sensorless hubs. Cant be reducing amps either.
Btw should I expect more heat from the hub running at lets say 60 70%?


Thanks

The 3 speed switch cuts the amps and the volts to give you different levels or acceleration and top speed.
So 50% is 50% of the acceleration and 50% of the top speed.
The hub will run cooler on 50% then 100%
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby NRG » Mon May 09, 2011 4:28 am

gensem wrote:I have a quick questiin about 3 way switch/throttle %
How does this setting control the max speed?
I dont think its advancing/retarding the timing because that wouldnt work with sensorless hubs. Cant be reducing amps either.
Btw should I expect more heat from the hub running at lets say 60 70%?


Thanks


See Jeremy's post on page 2

4. The speed settings (used when programmed in switch mode) are nominal percentages of the maximum allowable duty cycle, so directly control the motor maximum no-load speed. For example, if programmed to 30%, 70% and 100% the controller will only allow the motor to run up to those speeds. In effect, it's a throttle limiter, but it does have the effect of expanding the throttle mechanical range. For example, with 30% selected the full throttle travel will give 0 to 30% motor rpm, rather than 0 to 100% rpm, which can give better low speed control if required.

So, the % settings effectively scale the mechanical effect of the throttle with regard to speed: 50% setting means wide open throttle gives 50% of the no load top speed.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby gensem » Mon May 16, 2011 11:58 pm

A little advertisement

Check the new open source infineon setup program.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27927&p=405914#p405914

Its real folks!
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby PetriK » Sun May 22, 2011 8:48 am

The three mode speed setting in pedelec seems to work only up to 100%. if 120% is used, then the throttle must be used for increasing the speed for over 100% area.

I like the pedelec mode so that its max 100% that i can get by pedalling, but 120% with a push a button eg when doing a steep uphill (i have on off throttle button).
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:11 am

IM back at it again... Stupid windows 7 is stoping my this time so now when I do it the way you say for a 64 bit system I get the error code
"c:\\Windows|SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX" was loaded but the DllRegisteredServer failed with error code 0x8002801c"
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby gensem » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:00 pm

Arlo1 wrote:IM back at it again... Stupid windows 7 is stoping my this time so now when I do it the way you say for a 64 bit system I get the error code
"c:\\Windows|SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX" was loaded but the DllRegisteredServer failed with error code 0x8002801c"



Try to unregister and register the dll again.

regsvr32 -u c:\Window\SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX (to unregister)

regsvr32 c:\Window\SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX (to register)

btw check if the file is in that folder.
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:42 pm

gensem wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:IM back at it again... Stupid windows 7 is stoping my this time so now when I do it the way you say for a 64 bit system I get the error code
"c:\\Windows|SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX" was loaded but the DllRegisteredServer failed with error code 0x8002801c"



Try to unregister and register the dll again.

regsvr32 -u c:\Window\SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX (to unregister)

regsvr32 c:\Window\SysWOW64\MSCOMCTL.OCX (to register)

btw check if the file is in that folder.

between the google machine and other shit I got it thanks!
And thanks to oldhaq as well for a email I saved of his to help me!
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Re: Keywin E-bike Lab Parameter Designer Software Manual-ver

Postby gensem » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:28 pm

Arlo I would use XPD to program infineon controllers(search in forums) is much better compared to keywin.
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