X5/Puma + 20" + Li => Fashsion??
- Thread starter The7
- Start date
Neither...
I'd go for the 4 series.
8)
I'd go for the 4 series.
8)
BiGH
100 kW
Ypedal said:
ditto!
....
for now...
xyster
10 MW
X5 for mostly on-road/paved/hard-pack trail use; much lighter Puma for mostly off-road/bumpy trail use. Those 4xx-favoring people don't know or appreciate the torque they're missing...
For sub 1500w operation.. 4 series.
For 2500w + .. x5..
How's that ?
For 2500w + .. x5..
How's that ?
Jozzer
100 kW
Sounds fair :lol:
xyster
10 MW
Ypedal said:For sub 1500w operation.. 4 series.
For 2500w + .. x5..
How's that ?
Right on! No reason to choose the X5 over the 4 series if the buyer is sure he will never be interested in running >1500 watts. Between 1500 and 2500 watts is a gray area where terrain and weight considerations become the discriminating factors.
Jozzer
100 kW
4 series should be good for 2KW with a little care, or with a temp probe/cuttout...or some other kind of thermal management..
Thank you to all you helping out us poor newbies with your knowledge and experiences
If I understand this correctly, you need to have .... a lot more available power both volts and amps for the x5
right?
back to more archive readings thanks
If I understand this correctly, you need to have .... a lot more available power both volts and amps for the x5
right?
back to more archive readings thanks
xyster
10 MW
efreak said:
No, you don't have to. The X5 will run just as well as the 4xx series on the same low power levels -- for instance 36 volts 20 amps. But the X5 is twice the weight and more expensive than the 4xx. So I see no reason to chose the X5 over the 4xx unless someone is planning to run it at a power level that the 4xx can not efficiently sustain -- like 72 volts 35 amps or more -- in which case there's ample reason to choose the X5, as I did.
Secondly, it takes more power to get the X5 accelerated up to speed compared to the lighter 4xx series. So the 4xx series will probably be quicker than the X5 at 36 volts 20 amps. At a power like 72 volts 35 amps, the 4xx series is much less efficient than the X5 (the wasted energy is lost as heat), and the smaller physical size gives it less leverage. So, all else being equal, the X5 will win that drag race, and stay much cooler while doing it.
Thirdly, the 4xx series motors are at real risk of frying to death if pushed for too long at 72 volts 35 amps or more (like if climbing a long steep hill full throttle at that power). In the same situation, it'd take a lot more power to put the X5 at risk of sudden hubmotor failure.
http://www.ebike.ca/simulator/ is an addictive toy that also illustrates some differences between 4 and 5 series. Bellow a few datapoints I've picked that show the differences between 408 and 5304.
In short the 5 series has lightly more torque, slightly higher peak power and is slightly more efficient at all voltage/current levels. The price is higher weight/cost.
408 @ 48V 20A
Torque 47 N-m
Peak power 650W
Efficiency at peak power: 72%
5304 @ 48V 20A
Torque: 57 N-m
Peak Power: 750W
Efficiency at peak power: 85%
At 72V 35A the ratios are similar, but weight pennalty becomes relatively less bad:
408 @ 72V 35A
Torque: 80 N-m
Peak power 1500W
Efficiency at peak power: 70%
5304 @ 72V 35A
Torque: 100 N-m
Peak Power: 1950W
Efficiency at peak power: 85%
Consnsus seems to be that if it only becomes worthwhile to carry extra weight if you drive your motors hard.
Can anybody enlighten me what is a puma motor?
In short the 5 series has lightly more torque, slightly higher peak power and is slightly more efficient at all voltage/current levels. The price is higher weight/cost.
408 @ 48V 20A
Torque 47 N-m
Peak power 650W
Efficiency at peak power: 72%
5304 @ 48V 20A
Torque: 57 N-m
Peak Power: 750W
Efficiency at peak power: 85%
At 72V 35A the ratios are similar, but weight pennalty becomes relatively less bad:
408 @ 72V 35A
Torque: 80 N-m
Peak power 1500W
Efficiency at peak power: 70%
5304 @ 72V 35A
Torque: 100 N-m
Peak Power: 1950W
Efficiency at peak power: 85%
Consnsus seems to be that if it only becomes worthwhile to carry extra weight if you drive your motors hard.
Can anybody enlighten me what is a puma motor?
xyster
10 MW
tomv said:
Good info, tomv. What the simulator doesn't estimate is at what power the motor melts, or at what voltage the moving parts fly apart.
Judging by user reports and Justin from ebikes.ca's opinion, the X5 can handle more than twice the power of the 4xx, and about a 25% higher voltage.
Too bad there's those pesky physical constraints:
Attachments
BiGH
100 kW
Yah - what xyster said.
408 can handle 72v 20a without too much trouble.
at 35a tho - it can be a bit iffy. so you can't run it at full throttle for a long time. (basically you need to make a thermal cutoff that works either manually or automatically)
X5 (as Lowell can sure tell u) can handle some truely insane power levels.
Puma is very good, but a little more expensive and there are a few different versions of it, and they can run different amounts of max power(and voltage).
408 can handle 72v 20a without too much trouble.
at 35a tho - it can be a bit iffy. so you can't run it at full throttle for a long time. (basically you need to make a thermal cutoff that works either manually or automatically)
X5 (as Lowell can sure tell u) can handle some truely insane power levels.
Puma is very good, but a little more expensive and there are a few different versions of it, and they can run different amounts of max power(and voltage).
Jozzer
100 kW
Yeah, now I have had a few puma's to play with I think I am in the Puma camp too. If I wanted more power then an X5 (like 4kw+), but although the 4 series works ok and is very reliable, the puma has way more "zing".
4 series is also alot heavier, i can really feel tthe difference on the back end!
4 series is also alot heavier, i can really feel tthe difference on the back end!
recumbent
100 kW
Jozzer said:
More "zing" sounds fun, but I'm afraid it also represents the annoying noise of the straight cut gears whining aloud every time we accelerate, like my Heinzman unit does. It has zing also. Maybe helical cut gears would be the answer.
The 400 series get my vote, but in all fairness i never tried the "Puma", if indeed it did not have the annoying noise (which I highly doubt) then I'd change my vote.
The Puma motor is amazingly quiet. Not anything like a Heinzman. In fact, I couldn't hear the gears at all when I was riding it. (keep in mind the surroundings were quite noisy and my hearing is not that great).
To me, it seemed quieter than a Crystalyte motor.
To me, it seemed quieter than a Crystalyte motor.
Jozzer
100 kW
Certainly not quieter, though as you get older the higher frequencies go first...perhaps over a certain age the puma's become silent :lol: (looks forward to being as venerable as Fetcher and immune to annoying whines)
The are louder for sure, theres no disputing that, but they make up for it in many ways! (weight and hillclimbing/acelleration, and efficiency when thrashed)
Without trying it though, your vote means little recumbent :lol:
The are louder for sure, theres no disputing that, but they make up for it in many ways! (weight and hillclimbing/acelleration, and efficiency when thrashed)
Without trying it though, your vote means little recumbent :lol:
xyster
10 MW
There's been so many different versions of the Puma, with no external identifiers to tell them apart, could some versions be quieter than others? (Not that Fechter hasn't probably lost most of his hearing due to all those workshop explosions).
BiGH
100 kW
I think mark and Knoxie are going very well in promoting the Pumas heck i want two right now but i also agree with Xyster, is there any possibility of giving feedback to the factory to stamp the dam things with a model number. The crystalyte model numbers are fantastic - in that you know exactly what you're getting (ignore the canon and journey kit).
the puma needs something stamped on it. like:
320V2
320V3
or something to determine motor speed / version number. That way you'll find more people wanting to order them becasue they are sure of what theyre getting insted of asking for the "new puma" - is that the new new puma or only the new puma lol
heck i want two right now but i also agree with Xyster, is there any possibility of giving feedback to the factory to stamp the dam things with a model number. The crystalyte model numbers are fantastic - in that you know exactly what you're getting (ignore the canon and journey kit).the puma needs something stamped on it. like:
320V2
320V3
or something to determine motor speed / version number. That way you'll find more people wanting to order them becasue they are sure of what theyre getting insted of asking for the "new puma" - is that the new new puma or only the new puma
lol
