BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 3:44pm

I finally decided to post the pictures of the repair and rebuild of the 2 BionX hub motor i got for free ( severly broken dur to rust and water!)

Please note that the stator in some pics is an older version than in some other pics.. these pics was token during BOTH motor repair

The shear strengh of this 3M DP-460 ( or DP-420) Scotchweld epoxy is 4600 psi !!!! and is made especially for magnet !!! This is also a structural glue type so it have a filling feature that is perfect to fill the space between magnets in the motor to help increase strengh!!.

Magnets was glued one by one and i leave them 5 minutes before adding the next magnet to allow them to stick perfectly and AVOID all them to stick together with the next.

First 10 pics:
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 3:53pm

suite:
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by karma » Mar 07 2010 3:55pm

nice rebuild doc :mrgreen:

i see you found the good Epoxy :wink:

how anyone can let there hub motor get to that point ill never now :x

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by slayer » Mar 07 2010 4:03pm

Nice work doc, i know for a fact that scotchweld is strong enough it is widely used in bodyshop repairs.

Doc I was reading on ebikes.ca that they say their system (bionx) is only working with their batteries (proprietary system) is it true , i don't think so cause i seen a guy here boost his pack and i saw another guy here in gatineau using a 36 volts on a 24 volts system...but his 36 volts was a bionx ...but do you know if it would work with different pack? i would tend to belive it does

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 4:42pm

slayer wrote:Nice work doc, i know for a fact that scotchweld is strong enough it is widely used in bodyshop repairs.

Doc I was reading on ebikes.ca that they say their system (bionx) is only working with their batteries (proprietary system) is it true , i don't think so cause i seen a guy here boost his pack and i saw another guy here in gatineau using a 36 volts on a 24 volts system...but his 36 volts was a bionx ...but do you know if it would work with different pack? i would tend to belive it does
The BionX hub motor have a controler inside the hub. That controller is using 55V mosfets.. so we would normally think they can take up to let say 50Vdc.. but the low voltage regulator inside the controller and the rest of the kit like the console and the battery circuit could not that that voltage limit.. they are using some 7805 voltage regulator that are normally limited to 35V-40V and some buck or boost converter chip like the LM25XX that sometime allow up to 60V but many have 40V max...

The only way to use these BIONX MOTOR like WE WANT.. I mean... REAL HIGH POWER !.. is to remove the controller from the hub motor and use it with a different controller like the infieon, crystalyte etc... these motor are very similar desing... 3 hall sensor... 3 phase wires etc... we would only need to put these 3 phases wires out of the hub and also put a 0V, and +5V and the 3 hall sensor signal wire ( total 5 wire for the 3 hall sensor out of the motor)

Like i said in a previous project still on hold, these motor could take 3kW burst and certainly 1000-1500W continuous IF WE CAREFULLY MONITOR THEIR WINDING TEMPERATURE :twisted:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 5:11pm

Here is a little schematic i did to show the BionX wiring ( it apply on both I2C(pre 2009) and CANbus system

Doc
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Ypedal » Mar 07 2010 6:06pm

Since my A2B does not use the console, or the pedal sensor, do you think it would take 48v ? Or more specifically do you know if the 36v BionX controller has High Voltage protectino preventing a 48v battery from powering it up ?
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by slayer » Mar 07 2010 7:06pm

OK,
But the real question was not for real high power but just using 36 volts from a different kind of battery pack. not bionx pack or 24 volts and 36 volts from justin lemore ...say a guy's who have a 24 volts system and the batteries just died on him and he doesn t want to buy an expensive pack from bionx he could use a 24 or even probably a 36 volts pack at a cheaper price .

...i know i saw jvbike done it a couple of years ago using 36 volts on a 24 volts system and i saw one here in gatineau, a bionx re seller also ...and a lot of people don't think it can be done because they think there are some electronic communicating inside the pack with the controller.

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 7:24pm

slayer wrote:OK,
But the real question was not for real high power but just using 36 volts from a different kind of battery pack. not bionx pack or 24 volts and 36 volts from justin lemore ...say a guy's who have a 24 volts system and the batteries just died on him and he doesn t want to buy an expensive pack from bionx he could use a 24 or even probably a 36 volts pack at a cheaper price .

...i know i saw jvbike done it a couple of years ago using 36 volts on a 24 volts system and i saw one here in gatineau, a bionx re seller also ...and a lot of people don't think it can be done because they think there are some electronic communicating inside the pack with the controller.

Here is the answer you want :wink: YES it's possible!

The Lithium battery only have 4 wires:

negative, Positive, and two for the temp sensor.

So the LiMn 37V model can take any battery from 31Vdc to 42Vdc ( the 37V model shut down at 31V)

I have presently 7x 24V NiMh battery circuit and one 36V LiMn battery circuit.

As SOON as i get the famous component that is missing to try the complete system, i'll try whatever voltage you want and will post resiusts to know the limit and what can broke on them.

Ken from Powerinmotion sent me a CANbus remote and recently i got a I2C remote. i'll be able to test any motor with any battery with any console.

I hope geting that battery harness ( that have every right connection between every components) on monday or tuesday.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by slayer » Mar 07 2010 7:31pm

Great thank you doc, i was thinking to buy a 24 volts bionx used and put 36 volts on it... well not really but at least in my mind ...i do that sometimes :lol: maybe someday if i see one who wants to sell for 500 $ 8)

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 07 2010 7:35pm

Ypedal wrote:Since my A2B does not use the console, or the pedal sensor, do you think it would take 48v ? Or more specifically do you know if the 36v BionX controller has High Voltage protectino preventing a 48v battery from powering it up ?

Since i only have one 37V battery circuit i would not blow it to try overvolt above 42V ( 10s full) As soon as i get one more 37V circuit i'll try

Same for the motor controller ( i have two that i think are 37V version) I tried them and they both work with 42V when using with the 37V battery circuit.

I think that the only limit of your A2B kit is probably the controller... and the little battery indicator circuit.

I could give yo a better answer if i could see that controller.. but i know... you need to ... remove the spokes and open that motor... :? ( i tried to find any pics or review on the internet of that a2b motor and controller and.. found nothing interesting... :(

but YOU could be the one that give ous that answer! :mrgreen: :wink:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by itselectric » Mar 08 2010 3:21am

slayer wrote:Great thank you doc, i was thinking to buy a 24 volts bionx used and put 36 volts on it... well not really but at least in my mind ...i do that sometimes :lol: maybe someday if i see one who wants to sell for 500 $ 8)
You can over volt on PL250 (24v version) with 36V. But bionx does not recommended it, it will reduce life of the motor.

However, if you take a look ohm cycle, they are sell 250w HT motor with 37v in Europe, it become one of favor model in Europe due to wattage restriction on motor, but does not restrict voltage.

http://ohmcycles.com/our-bikes/urban-xu700/

Another common way to use other battery is to plug the directly new battery onto charge port, take one battery to charge another battery, not the way I would recommend it, but it works.

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by steveo » Mar 08 2010 3:05pm

very well done doc ...

looks like a lot of work to rebuild that motor .. but that motor will make another cyclest happy!

-steveo
Repair Thread
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by GCinDC » Mar 10 2010 10:11am

I got a PL250 for my wife over a year ago, and it's so SLOW! nowhere near factory spec even.

i didn't ride it enough to know how off it was, but finally sent the battery back in (before end of 1 yr warranty) and they replaced it (24V LiMn)... but it too is so SLOW!! OK, maybe the speed is okay but the range is lousy. ~5 miles at full power?

or heck, I'd LOVE to pop a 36V battery in there. Or even a 6s LiPo... Think LiPo would be too high current? :mrgreen:
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by GCinDC » May 25 2010 7:54am

itselectric wrote:You can over volt on PL250 (24v version) with 36V. But bionx does not recommended it, it will reduce life of the motor.
Alright, I'm fed up! My wife didn't ride her bike for 3 months and now the (NEW!) 24V LiMn battery is half dead with max range of 5 miles. I don't want to overvolt it, or even give it extra range -- She just needs it to work like it should for 10 miles...

So, I'm thinking about opening it up and swapping out the old battery for a 6s2p lipo?

nominal: 6x3.7V = 22.2V
hot: 6x4.1=24.6V
low: 19.8V

I'll use a 6s balance charger, and connect a BM6 for security.

Think it work??
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by ambroseliao » May 25 2010 4:09pm

How many amp hours is the BionX supposed to have?
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » May 27 2010 2:19pm

ambroseliao wrote:How many amp hours is the BionX supposed to have?
9.6 amphour (10s 6p) of 1.6Ah cells for the 36V big battery

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by GCinDC » May 27 2010 2:36pm

Sorry for threadjack! I'll post elsewhere when i get to work on this, but basically:

I've been talking to Ken at itselectric and have learned some interesting things:
- no bms on old batt
- the easiest thing to do would be to plug a new battery in to the charger port, leave the old one in there, so the new batt current goes through old batt!
- regen might prove problematic. but i could disable it in console or by using putting a magnet on brake lines, so it never knows when the brakes are used! tricky!

For my 24V LiMn system, the charger goes up to 29.4V. i'd love to use the same charger, but for 7s lipo, the charger will bring them up to 4.2/cell, so IF regen is used on steep hill at start of ride, i could overcharge it. w/ LFP's lipo vids, it's hard to imagine them blowing. and i have to think they could handle high voltage for a bit...

But for the battery life, it'd probably be better to charge them only to 4V/cell, so to use a 28V charger, if 7s. I'm really curious what the existing LiMn config is, 7s? I was reading somewhere that LiMn cells are 4V? I have no experience with them... Seems like a good idea anyway to understand the existing properties... I ramble.
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by liveforphysics » May 27 2010 6:28pm

Hey! Great job on the motor repair Doc! I missed this thread the first time. It's tough to glue magnets perfect like that, and you did a much better job than the factory.
It's a shame they sell such a crap motor/controller/battery for so much more money than something like cheap generic 9C kit from Justin, when the cheap kit makes for a drastically better end product.


GCinDC- I would do a pair of the Turnigy 8S 5.8Ah packs.

Whatever shape best suits your needs. Chubby:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=10870

Or long and skinny:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=10895

Charge LiPo to only 4.1v rather than 4.2 and it lasts a ton longer. That would make about 33v at full charge. If it's controller can't handle 33v, then toss the whole thing out. lol :)
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by GCinDC » May 28 2010 5:48am

Silly me, I already did create my own thread.
Youtube channel, 2013 Highlights vid. Ebike Nerdcast.
Giant DH Comp: 20s lipo (11.6Ah), hs3540, Adaptto Mini-E, 900W BMSBattery charger.
GT I-Drive (sold), 20s lipo, 9C, 72V 45A 12FET.

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by crichman » Jun 10 2010 8:06pm

Cool stuff. But you don't need a magnet to disable regen on Bionx -- all you have to do is unplug the magnet sensor connector.

Charlie
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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by DISH » Jul 16 2010 11:09pm

My trike came with a Bionx PL-350 (350 WATT) system. I had nothing but trouble with the Bionx system.

I blew the MOSFETs inside the motor THREE TIMES! First two times were under warranty. Third time it was out of warranty and it was my baby. I did this by blasting downhill and when I hit ~42 MPH it appears the back EMF from the motor exceeded the breakdown of the MOSFETS. Result? Little pieces of what once were functional MOSFETS rattling around inside the motor. This appears to be a design flaw of the earlier Bionx systems. I don't think they thought anyone would be doing that kind of speed and didn't design the system to withstand that kind of back EMF from the motor windings.

At this point I had enough of Bionx and refused to pay their ridiculous prices for replacement parts. To make a L-O-N-G story short, I scrapped the battery, control system, gutted the motor and brought out phase and hall sensor wires. I built up a 60 V 28 AH Li-Ion battery pack and connected the system to a $25 12 MOSFET BMS Battery controller (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =4&t=13691). Although this controller comes in two versions (36 and 48 volt) I took it to 60 VDC after checking the rated voltage of the MOSFETS and capacitors. The Bionx motor runs perfectly in the sensorless mode using this controller so all you really have to bring out is the three phase wires.

I've been running this system now for about a year with absolutely no problems. The BMS Battery controller comes with the internal current limit set to 25 amps. This means at 60 volts I am pumping around 1500 watts through the Bionx 350 watt motor. Cruising speed is now in the 32 to 35 MPH range instead of the wimpy 20 MPH I used to suffer with the Bionx system. The motor is mounted in a 20 inch rear wheel using a 20x1.75 inch knobby tire. If I pedal along with the motor 40+ MPH is no big deal on level roads. It does 20 to 25 MPH up the steepest hills in this area with no overheating issues. I have no doubt this motor could take at least 2X the 1500 watts I've been dumping into it as I've inspected the windings and so far nothing has discolored after running it for a year at the 1500 watt level and I have a habit of running the throttle wide open most of the time which results in the system running at the 25 amp current limit especially when climbing hills. I live in the foothills of the Allegheny Mountains (peaks 3100 ft. above sea level). I've been pretty much gas free for the past 6 years and put around 5000 miles a year on this trike so it's seen a LOT of use. I routinely haul as much as 100 pounds of groceries as i do all my shopping and running around town on this trike!

I was just about to post a HOW TO article for those that are fed up with Bionx and their ridiculous prices when I ran across this topic. I still intend to publish my mods when I get a few more photographs together.

PS - Regen also works fine using the Bionx motor with the BMS Battery controller.
bionx6.jpg
What happens to the MOSFETS inside the Bionx motor when you go downhill in excess of ~42 MPH !!!
bionx6.jpg (93.47 KiB) Viewed 19341 times
More photos at: http://k3pgp.org/bionxboard.htm
30m_25a.gif
Small trip today showing ~30 MPH and hitting the 25 amp limit the BMS Battery controller is set to.
Also shows using regen for braking instead of grinding down my disc brake pads
30m_25a.gif (47.62 KiB) Viewed 4895 times
^^^ Logging is done via a bluetooth module installed inside the Cycle Analyst and connected via bluetooth to an HP IPAQ RX3115 pocket computer writing to a file using my GPS software. Hence the .NMEA file extension... Battery voltage sagging a bit as this was the last part of the trip home after a round trip of ~30 miles.

Freewheeling speed (back wheel up off the ground) is approx. 37 MPH at 58 volts using a 20x1.75 inch knobby tire which will give you some idea of the turns / volt ratio for the Bionx 350 watt motor.

Please note: All of the above applies to a Bionx PL-350 bought 3 or 4 years ago. Hopefully the newer Bionx systems do not have this fatal (EXPLODING MOSFET !) flaw...
Last edited by DISH on Jul 17 2010 1:15am, edited 18 times in total.
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DISH   10 W

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by DISH » Jul 16 2010 11:09pm

For some reason my previous post was entered TWICE even though I only sent it once. :shock:

I took the liberty of deleting the second post. :mrgreen:
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hydro-one   10 kW

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by hydro-one » Jul 16 2010 11:26pm

Great job on the motor, looks real nice doc !!!!

Keep up the great work DISH. Your making your species proud. You know why!!!

Mike
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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

Post by Doctorbass » May 25 2011 1:02pm

I found a picture of the NEW 2011 Bionx motor ( lighter and less cog)

Image

Doc
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