Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't care

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by CamLight » Jul 26 2010 10:36pm

hydro-one wrote:wow less than you thought!!!!!

Is it getting hot in here!!!!
MUCH less! I can't believe IXYS is willing to sell it at that price. :mrgreen:

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by CamLight » Jul 26 2010 10:39pm

liveforphysics wrote:So, yeah, you get a 24 fet equalivlant controller in a package the size off a 6 fet.
Still the same amount of heat though, isn't it? That can bump the size up a bit.
But, that's manageable with a good design. :)

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by hydro-one » Jul 26 2010 10:54pm

$250 collosus controller!!!! that might actually fit on the bike!!, or in it!!

This might be able to find a use. mabye on a budget build. :P

lyen you paying attention?
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by Lyen » Jul 26 2010 11:53pm

hydro-one wrote:$250 collosus controller!!!! that might actually fit on the bike!!, or in it!!

This might be able to find a use. mabye on a budget build. :P

lyen you paying attention?
Hi Hydro-one,

Yes, I am watching things closely. But the challenge is the initial investment and implementation. I will see what I can do. :)

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by Fligh High » Jul 27 2010 7:34pm

The Ixys looks great hope this will work out. The isolated tab is already worth it ! It even looks very good for producing them factory-wise in many numbers , fantastic future product to be.

My knowledge isn't that great concerning mosfets but I tried to compare the Ixys to TO-247 , it's about the equivalent as 2 x IRFP4368 or 3 x IRFP3077 current-wise and only slightly more expensive. Rds also practically around same area.
Interesting though is the drain current vs. case temperature , max current is gradually getting less from 25 degree c while the TO-247 packages can deliver the same current until about 120 degree c and only then taper off. So there is a certain cross-over point where the TO-247 packages are better ! The IRFP4368 is certainly very good. Size-wise the Ixys is the same as 2 TO-247 IRFP4368 next to each other , it should be possible to make the same size controller with both.

What I mean to say is : you can still build a compareble controller with the older stuff , but only if some one would start making them :wink:

But the coming time will be very interesting , I think a lot of people are going diy controller crazy at the moment (atleast in their minds) , so it's only a matter of time !

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 28 2010 1:06am

Fligh High wrote: Interesting though is the drain current vs. case temperature , max current is gradually getting less from 25 degree c while the TO-247 packages can deliver the same current until about 120 degree c and only then taper off. So there is a certain cross-over point where the TO-247 packages are better !!

You're looking at it a bit incorrectly. :)

The TO-247 package irfp4468pbf has an RdsOn increase from 25degC to 175degC of ~240%
The TO-220 package irfb4110pbf has an RdsOn increase from 25degC to 175degC of ~255%

This slick package has an RdsOn increase from 25degC to 175degC of ~205% (about 15-20% less effected by temp increase than the leading IR TO-220 and TO-247 parts).

The limit you're seeing on the other FETs is the package limit (how much current the leg/bond-wires can hold) showing a plateau. This FET has a lead structure designed around handling many hundreds of amps, so you don't see this package limit plateau, and you see only the silicon limits reflected in it's temp vs current graph.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by Fligh High » Jul 28 2010 6:50am

liveforphysics wrote:
The limit you're seeing on the other FETs is the package limit (how much current the leg/bond-wires can hold) showing a plateau. This FET has a lead structure designed around handling many hundreds of amps, so you don't see this package limit plateau, and you see only the silicon limits reflected in it's temp vs current graph.
Sure , I think I understand the silicon/bond-wires limits , but in real life use wouldn't 2 x Irfp4368 be the same current-handling wise as 1 Ixys if they reach "working" temperature in practical use ?

How would you program the max phase current-limit in a controller btw , because it can't be a fixed 500 amps in case of the Ixys because it is less capable when temperature rises but the 2 TO-247 Irfp4368 limit can be set allmost to a fixed 390 amps because of the plateau (all veeerry loosely compared of course)

You know a lot about this stuff and I am learning all the time , please tell me how you think Irfp4368 would hold up in a diy controller untill the Ixys becomes available because I don't want to wait for the Ixys as you might understand :wink: Shouldn't we be working on the TO-247 stuff in the mean time ? It's all we have....

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 28 2010 8:39am

Fligh High wrote: Sure , I think I understand the silicon/bond-wires limits , but in real life use wouldn't 2 x Irfp4368 be the same current-handling wise as 1 Ixys if they reach "working" temperature in practical use ?

How would you program the max phase current-limit in a controller btw , because it can't be a fixed 500 amps in case of the Ixys because it is less capable when temperature rises but the 2 TO-247 Irfp4368 limit can be set allmost to a fixed 390 amps because of the plateau (all veeerry loosely compared of course)

Yep, the IRFP4368 is a very very good FET in a nice package, I based my controller design around it's 100v brother, the IRFP4468, which is also outstanding. The 4468, as well as the IXYS gigamos TO-264 series FETs are what I based my previous controller FET stages on, because they kick ass. Unfortunately, when switching these current levels, the inductive path becomes a huge factor in controller design and the ability to share current effectively at high PWM frequency (required for the low L+R motors) as well as complex cooling and cap layout/packaging needs. The only option to go beyond a 12-fet design and keep it inductively balanced is to use radial FET arrangements, which is the path I took on my controller layouts, because my linear layout design experiences (like my cell tester, which uses 8x IRFP4468s in linear parallel) taught me it's a fool's game to play with these current levels.

With this FET, the inductive path from having the entrance and exit on opposite sides, along with the sinking opposite to the connection side just makes these things a damn dream to layout! :) You can do a 6fet layout neat as a bugs ear with an inductive path that would make an RF engineer happy, and 12FET designs are equally fantastic, not to mention so much easier to construct than the radial designs. These things have seriously made my last few months of work on FET arrays seem like huge waste of time, because it's effortless to just bolt these things down to the backside of a CPU sink and have a beautiful and balanced compact simple and superior inductive layout.

TO-247 and TO-264 both are very good, worlds better than TO-220. However, this thing just dominates from the angles those packages miss on. :)
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 28 2010 9:30am

I had a dream last night that Luke and I went to a factory and were trying to get some boards built around these fets :lol:

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 28 2010 12:56pm

If you could get your rc motor guys to use these fets, you would have a serious monster product. :)


johnrobholmes wrote:I had a dream last night that Luke and I went to a factory and were trying to get some boards built around these fets :lol:
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by John in CR » Jul 28 2010 1:46pm

If they were for a 48V device, what's the voltage limit of this things? If I can safely go to mid 82V, then up my guarantee from 24 units to 50.

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by rhitee05 » Jul 28 2010 4:27pm

These are 75V FETs, so no good for 82V.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by Microbatman » Aug 14 2010 9:39pm

liveforphysics wrote:I got this skinny on this part.

There will be no 100v part. :( :( :(


Do you see this changing in the near future 3 months 6months?
Have you got your samples that you ordered yet?
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by Ratking » Oct 14 2010 5:42am

Luke, Have you received a sample yet?
I've read dozen of datasheets, but this one seems so good that we need to get our hands on it.

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by vehiculeselectriques » Feb 04 2014 4:35am

Hi,

>4 years have passed ... is there some usage news about this FET ?

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by agniusm » Feb 04 2014 2:31pm

I was reading this as if it was new stuff, high hopes, none existent outcome, typical.

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Feb 04 2014 2:39pm

vehiculeselectriques wrote:Hi,

>4 years have passed ... is there some usage news about this FET ?

Yes, I have all I need of them now. They are extremely impressive devices. 75v version, 100v versions, and 150v versions. You can just buy them on digikey.

Image


They are perhaps the best suited towards motor-control power stages built around individual mosfets around AFAIK.

I've morphed my interests towards inherently lower inductance combined 3-phase leg modules now though... lol
75v version:
http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/MTI200WX75GD.pdf
100v version:
http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/MTI145WX100GC.pdf


I think those modules make the most sense for ebike power-level controllers now.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by boostjuice » Feb 04 2014 6:39pm

Indeed, the single FET units are finally available in retail small quantities!

75V http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... 0N075T2-ND
150V http://www.digikey.com.au/product-detai ... 60N15T2-ND

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by circuit » Feb 09 2014 4:00pm

liveforphysics wrote: I've morphed my interests towards inherently lower inductance combined 3-phase leg modules now though... lol
75v version:
http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/MTI200WX75GD.pdf
100v version:
http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/MTI145WX100GC.pdf
I think those modules make the most sense for ebike power-level controllers now.
where does one get these from? Sample-only so far? Any pricing data?

boostjuice wrote:Indeed, the single FET units are finally available in retail small quantities!

75V http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... 0N075T2-ND
150V http://www.digikey.com.au/product-detai ... 60N15T2-ND
Now that is a bit pricey... I wonder what segment are they targeting it at. 6*45 = $270 of mosfets alone.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Feb 09 2014 5:35pm

[Quote=circuit]
Now that is a bit pricey... I wonder what segment are they targeting it at. 6*45 = $270 of mosfets alone.[/quote]

I was quoted at low as $14 each in forum-friendly group buy qtys.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by johnrobholmes » Mar 04 2014 4:18pm

Looks like those integrated 3 phase bridges have a similar heatsink path? Dissipation numbers look good, would indeed make a great ebike power stage. Almost idiot proof to lay that out.

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 04 2014 9:17pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Looks like those integrated 3 phase bridges have a similar heatsink path? Dissipation numbers look good, would indeed make a great ebike power stage. Almost idiot proof to lay that out.
It would make the highest continuous power RC controller stage in the world as well if someone wanted to put it on a little heatsink with a high performance fan on it.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by johnrobholmes » Mar 05 2014 4:32pm

Its one helluva large footprint to work with though, in RC terms. Would be fine for 1/8th scale stuff, but tough to work into a 10th scale controller where the market could move enough volume to make it worthwhile.


But on an ebike, a 50x50 package could really output serious power. Wouldn't even need forced cooling at "bicycle" power levels.


Thanks for sharing Luke 8)

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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 05 2014 8:11pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Its one helluva large footprint to work with though, in RC terms. Would be fine for 1/8th scale stuff, but tough to work into a 10th scale controller where the market could move enough volume to make it worthwhile.


But on an ebike, a 50x50 package could really output serious power. Wouldn't even need forced cooling at "bicycle" power levels.


Thanks for sharing Luke 8)

My pleasure friend. :-)

Fortunately, most 1/10th scale, or even 1/8th scale RC doesn't need a 10kW controller. :-) The stuff it would fit fine in is the stuff that could use it's power. Hydroplane. 1/5-1/4 scale cars, but 1/4 - 1/5 scale RC cars, big helis and planes etc.
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Re: Awesome new FET package :) :) :) Not a geek? you won't

Post by johnrobholmes » Mar 05 2014 10:44pm

Hey, I can dream about shoehorning it into a 1/10th scale and watching the driveline explode :lol: You are right though, the craft that need so much power have the room for it.


I've been working on an off road mobility "chair" for a friend, and our biggest hangup is the controller. He wants to really bind the sucker up and push through tough terrain, which means a lot of low speed high duty throttle. We plan to limit power at 4000 watts per motor and use the stator pattern like a 9c, stack height TBD. im kinda hoping that we kill off the shelf controllers so we have a reason to build our own.

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