3500W hubbie with double halls

I just picked up a 3500W scooter hub motor and controller. This thing is a beast with an 11.5" diameter motor, but it's got something weird. The controller has the normal BLDC connections, 3 phase wire, 5 wire hall plug, +/- battery lead, and dual cable for the keyswitch. The motor has 3 phase wires, but it has 2 separate 5 wire hall plugs. Anyone ever hear of that extra set of hall wires?

My thought is one of 3 things:
1. A spare set of halls in case one has a problem, so you just plug the other in.
2. 2 sets of halls for 60° or 120° phase angle controller (unlikely to me due to the good quality plugs).
3. 2 sets of halls with one having a timing advance for different scooters.

Any other speculation?

John

PS- once I crack this puppy open I will post picks. The controller unveiling may or may not get its own thread depending upon how interesting it is.

Your guesses are as good as mine. This is strange.
One might be for reverse?
Having a spare set sounds like a good idea.

You could hook up the motor and try running it with either one to see if you notice a difference.

fechter said:

Your guesses are as good as mine. This is strange.
One might be for reverse?
Having a spare set sounds like a good idea.

You could hook up the motor and try running it with either one to see if you notice a difference.

Click to expand...

Reverse could make sense, but that requires swapping 2 phase wires too. The color coding placement is identical on both connectors, and it's not like a Y in the wiring. Both sets of hall wires run into the motor.

Damn controller board won't budge. The housing is the same set up as those 24fet Infineons, but a much heavier case. It's too steep an angle to read the face of the fets. It's designed for 60V/3500W, but at least it's got 100V fets, so I'm hopeful it will run at 81V off the charge. The end I can get to has the shunt, so I can at least boost the current.

John

It definitely has 2 set of halls. You can see 1 in the pic and the other is on the other side of the stator. No way I can eyeball timing, so I'll have to run it with each set of halls. I believe it's 1 set with retarded or neutral timing for more torque, and the other is advanced for high speed, since I think some of those big scooters have 2 speed that way. Delta/WYE mechanical switching in the motor didn't work so well with the 2kw version because people kept burning windings by taking off in high speed.

Now I just have to build a bike to put it on, and see what she'll do with the stock 30fet controller at 63V nominal, hopefully going later to closer to 90V nominal and 100A. No doubt she'll climb and run the highway too.

Here's the vitals.
Magnet count- 56
Stator slots- 63
Stator width- 50mm
Stator diameter- 270mm
Axle- 25mm
Axle flats- 14mm
Rim size- 13"x4.5"

Another interesting thing I haven't seen before. The windings appear to alternate between 1 turn and 2 turns. The bundle is nice and fat too, and appears to be greater than a 10ga bundle of wire. I definitely need to beef up those skimpy phase wires, which seem to be 12ga. That may have been fine for 60v60A stock, but not for what I have in mind.

This is apparently a torqier wind than the big hubs on my daily rider that push me now to 60mph with 74V nominal and 75A. I understand that the 60V60A 300lb scooter did 45mph with good pull capable of 20% grades with a 150lb rider. Imagine this puppy pushing a 100-120lb bike with 100V100A along with the 2 speed timing of halls I think it has.

I need a Hanebrink style phatbike with 2 of these.

John

Do you know a brand or type and where to get one?

Wow, yeah weird. Timing adjust would make sense. Redundancy also makes sense. Reverse? Meh I dunno...

Whoa! John, you may have a double-wide magic pie!

Here's the vitals.
Magnet count- 56
Stator slots- 63
Stator width- 50mm
Stator diameter- 270mm


The magic pie is also 56 mags, 63slots, 270mm diameter, but I think it's only 20 or 25mm thick.

Any mfg info on the hub by chance? It would be really neat to find out if it uses the magpie pie laminations, just configured for a double stack.

Any chance of sharing where to get a motor like this and maybe a few pictures. My first question is what kind of tire does it use? I would love to use one for a pack mule trailer.

LFP,
I didn't count the lams, because I didn't totally disassemble the motor. I just stuck a tape measure through to check the length. I really don't like pulling the bearing over the wiring harness of slotted axle motors, because it's asking for trouble later. Once I get a worthy controller, I plan to reharness it with magnet wire to beef up the currently inadequate phase wires. I'll be sure to get a lam count when I do. Good to know about the Pi's, because I'd bet the covers fit. I hope the Pi covers are made to much better tolerances than the 9C I got, which had the cast cover off center by 1.5mm or so when they cut the rotor lip and bearing holes making it horribly out of balance.

This motor is cavernous inside, so hopefully at some point I get enough controller to experience performance sufficient to require ventilation. 700-1krpm this baby will move a lot of air as a centrifugal blower, and I have so much room for active blowers inside to really make a turbulent flow at the stator similar to what Arlo did with his X5.

DutchLincoln,
This came off an Xtreme scooter, if that's any assistance, but they don't sell the 3500W scooter anymore, and no longer list that motor as a spare. Also, the covers of the larger hubbies that Kelly sells are identical, but that may not mean anything, and I've not heard of double halls anywhere.

FWIW,
There is definitely a timing difference between the halls. One has a bit more torque with the front wheel harder to keep down, and the other has a bit more top end. Once I get a reliable controller for it, and a backup, then I'll risk having a switch between the two sets of halls, and get some data instead of subjective.

Fishmasterdan said:

Any chance of sharing where to get a motor like this and maybe a few pictures. My first question is what kind of tire does it use? I would love to use one for a pack mule trailer.

Click to expand...

Dan,
You'd get yourself killed with something like this as a pusher trailer. Trailers need brakes not motors...18 wheelers eg.

That said, I do want to make a big powered trailer, but I'll tune it so my bike applies more torque at all throttle positions. When I get to the beach with the family, I disconnect and put a front wheel with handlebar on the trailer. Then we have 2 vehicles at the beach, a high power fun ebike, and a big platform etrike to haul everything and operate as home base with sound system and a bunch of solar panel area for shade and battery charging. I'm working on how best to make lightweight solar panels for portability right now. It will be sweeeeeet, if I can pull it off. 8)

if its any help my magic pie looks identical inside, same type of support structure.

2 pies one case.. lol

neptronix said:

2 pies one case.. lol

Click to expand...

Let me know if you can find a Pie with 8ga of magnet wire per turn. If so, then it should have a similar Kv, which is 15-16rpm/volt with mine.

I thought Justin had problems with the large diameter 9C, similar to the Pie's, and they discontinued them. Maybe something about too narrow between the spoke flanges, though I really don't recall the issue. I'd definitely go with the built in rim type. My wide 13" rim may be heavy, but the 5" wide tire I got looks really good on it, and it ends up just over a 19" diameter wheel. I intentionally found the lowest profile tire I could get, and no tubes to dick with either.

liveforphysics said:

Whoa! John, you may have a double-wide magic pie!

Here's the vitals.
Magnet count- 56
Stator slots- 63
Stator width- 50mm
Stator diameter- 270mm


The magic pie is also 56 mags, 63slots, 270mm diameter, but I think it's only 20 or 25mm thick.

Any mfg info on the hub by chance? It would be really neat to find out if it uses the magpie pie laminations, just configured for a double stack.

Click to expand...

That also means the Pie's are ripe for a rewind for 9 phase and 3 controllers. Minimize the turns and get the one with the 16" bike rim. Even with the low resistance and inductance, the controllers seem to do okay as long as we don't lean on the current too hard, but 3X at 50A limits.

Mine has so much space that 3 12fet controllers just might fit inside. Ventilated, 9 phase via 3 controllers, and only having to run battery +/- and a throttle wire into the motor, would be nice. It already has dual halls, and the other controller could be sensorless. Plus the rim protects where the exhaust holes would be, so ventilation could be nearly unnoticeable.

Can you post some pictures of the placement of the halls?
This in order to better understand placement, 60/120 deg, and the difference between " timing's ".
Thank you.

dutchlincoln said:

Can you post some pictures of the placement of the halls?
This in order to better understand placement, 60/120 deg, and the difference between " timing's ".
Thank you.

Click to expand...

Will do once I get around to opening the motor. Thanks for reminding me though, since I want to beef up the phase wires to better serve the monster controller in route. 8)

John