Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

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Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:01 am

Yesterday I was at a neighborhood bike shop (Build-A-Bike) and saw this in their used parts stack:
DSC03688.JPG
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It's an old bolt-on trike "kit". Left side drive only, but that's ok, as it gives me some options a differential drive wouldn't.
DSC03689.JPG
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There are a few things that I may have to modify on it to allow use the way I'd like, most especially the dropouts, as they are not standard ones. Instead, they are made to feed the wheel axle up into and then back into a slot, so only a standard 10mm round axle actually inserts properly.
DSC03690.JPG
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They are also made for narrow-width rear wheels, like single-speed cruiser wheels, rather than the wider multi-gear cassette types.
My first guesstimate at the store was that it was 24" only, but it looks like it might take 26" too if they're not fat tires.


As soon as I got it home I had to mock it up and the closest bike to hand that was partly together was the Mongoose disc brake one I'd gotten the prior week:
DSC03691.JPG
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WHile this bike is not what I'd actually want to use (heavy frame) it gives the impression of it's typical form.
DSC03692.JPG
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Since it wouldnt' really take the standard bike wheels with cassettes,
DSC03694.JPG
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and only does lefthand drive, I did a quick check and the 24" Fusin geared hubmotor wheel I made for the front of CrazyBike2 fits in there ok:
DSC03693.JPG
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The only real issues are
A) The dropouts are thin, and will need reinforcement for a hubmotor's torque
B) The dropouts are cut in that nonstandard pattern, and would not allow me to rotate the hubmotor into the slots to give it something to torque against (at least, not without some considerable filing to round a corner and allow it to pivot into place).
DSC03698.JPG
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So I'll need to make a torque plate that bolts to the frame on each side of the wheel that actually does the work of the dropout's torque-reaction, and let the dropout just handle the vertical loading to the axle.

At first I was thinking that since a cassette-type wheel wouldn't fit, I'd have to relace/redish one into a single-speed wheel, and then find a single-speed freewheel to go on it. But then I remembered the 3-speed hubs from Spinningmagnets, which I still want to try to use with powerchair motors on my tadpole trike idea ARTOO.
DSC03696.JPG
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This is what these trike adapters were DESIGNED to work with! :) You can even see the little pulleys for the shifter cable. ;)

So that's what I'll use, which will give me at least 9 pedal speeds if I use a 3-ring on the pedals, and a derailer locked in one position on the rear of the bike chainline to the input of the trike adapter.

In the pic above, it's the Sachs 3-speed with coaster brake, and I'll probably lace that into a 24" wheel and use the smoothish road tires like I already have on CrazyBike2. Maybe I'll lace it into a 26" wheel, but that puts the weight higher (unless I sling the battery box below the back of the trike frame).

If I do use 26" wheels, I already have a Fusin 26" wheel courtesy of Dogman this last week, because he brought me a bunch of Fusin stuff to go with what I already have (much of it is interchangeable). More on that in the next post. :)


I thought about it a lot, and decided at least for now that I will use the Trek frame originally intended for the CrazyBike2-descended cargo bike, as that's still on hold while I sort out rear-suspension options. It's the smallest lightest strongest frame that is still suitable for the disc-brake 1.125"-headset shock fork off that Mongoose. Since except for the coaster brake on the left wheel's Sachs 3-speed IGH, it'll be the only brake on the trike, it better be a good one. ;)
DSC03695.JPG
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I'd kinda like to use the 26" Manitou adjustable fork on this instead, but I don't yet have an adapter to let me use disc calipers on it, and I really think I'd like to have that. Plus I'd have to build a 26" disc-compatible wheel, which I am not sure I have the spokes for (I didnt' have them for the 24" version, either, until now I have the whole 24" wheel right off the Mongoose).


The frame is actually about 3/4" too wide for the trike adapter bracket, but being steel it can in theory be bolted down anyway, letting it bend the stays inward as teh bolts are cranked down. I don't think I'll do it that way, but it would be possible.
DSC03697.JPG
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Oddly enough, the U-bolts I'd gotten supercheap from AllElectronics happen to be exactly the right size to go thru the existing trike kit seatstay bracket and clamp it to the frame. They aren't what it originally used, probably, but I don't have that hardware, and I think they would suffice. However, I don't think I am going to need them....
DSC03699.JPG
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I think I'm gonna make it a full-suspension trike instead. :)

I'd need to make mounting plates to bolt onto the bike's dropouts (which can also be filler-spacers for the too-wide dropouts), and then will need to use pivoting bolts for the mounting point at the dropouts for the trike kit itself. Not totally sure how I'll do that yet, but I think I will probably make a plate that bolts to each side of it with something that bolts to the flanges of a wheel hub, and then bolt the wheel hub into the dropouts. That'll give me a good pivot point, and if I make the extension plates long enough, it'll also extend the trike kit back some distance (probably necessary for where I want the seat to go.
DSC03701.JPG
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That's the skateboard that might eventually become the seat on the FS cargo-bike, but for the moment it cna represent whatever seat moutning I am going to use. Representing the seat itself is one of those bleacher-back half-chairs:
DSC03702.JPG
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Also you get to see about how the bars would be setup, pretty much like the ones on CB2 are. The difference is I will almost certainly bolt the steering section (headstock/stem/tube) to a seatpost (as Barrytrike did) instead of welding, like I did with CB2.
DSC03703.JPG
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Right now the seat shows over the axle, and would be tip-prone to the rear, but I'll be moving the trike kit backwards some distance (at least a few inches, and possibly a whole foot).

That wheel leaning on the left side is a 27" or 28" or maybe 700C cruiser wheel with a SA 3speed IGH in it. Without a tire it'll fit in the frame, but not with even an old skinny 10spd tire on it. So I'll definitely have to build a wheel to use on this, and can't just bolt an existing one in for the left side, unlike the right side with the Fusin in it.

CrazyBike2 next to the trike mockup:
DSC03704.JPG
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You can see some of the differences and similarities in how I'd like the trike to end up. Same handlebars and what will eventaully be the same steering setup, remote with a bar from pivot on bars to pivot on front stem.

Different wheel sizes
DSC03706.JPG
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From the big cruiser wheel down to the 26" rim from Ianmcnally, down to the 24" wheel off the back of the Mongoose (only one with tire on it).

Then I'll need to work out a way to use either the standard chainstay-clamp trailer hitch on it that's part of the kids' trailer I have yet to do much with, or make -a hitch like DayGlo Avenger has for my kennel trailler and/or chariot trailer, so that I can haul really big loads with it. Stuff I can't do on a bike because I can't go slow enough and still stay upright, etc. :)

(EDITED to alter thread name 11-12-10)
Last edited by amberwolf on Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby amberwolf » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:39 am

The Fusin stuff should prove useful. There's a second headlight/key/powermeter unit
DSC03643.JPG
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and a taillight of sorts
DSC03641.JPG
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but the tailight actually uses WHITE LEDs with a red filter over them. :roll:
DSC03640.JPG
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which is why the red is so dim in the previous pic. :( If they had used Red LEDs they'd be way brighter for the cost of them and same power usage. But I think they made this unit to be headlight or taillight simply by changing the lens, because:
DSC03638.JPG
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they ALSO used a YELLOW reflector in it! Should be red....it's such a crappy reflector that even a camera flash doesn't net you much light from it, even at only a couple of feet. :roll: It's actually identical to most of the pedal reflectors I've seen or had, except that it appears to be missing whatever quality it is taht makes those so very shiny. ;)
DSC03639.JPG
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They went with chrome ebrake handles for this kit, insead of black like my 36V kit.
DSC03642.JPG
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Also, they combined what had been a separate left-side control for just a horn button plus the throttle's 3-speed switch into a new left-side control that contains an on-off switch for the headlight and taillight. Previously that wasnt' needed, as the light was always on if the key was on, as I think it should be. But on this kit, the keyswitch ONLY shuts off the controller by using an enable/disable line, rather than cutting power to it, so you can run the lights even with the cotnroller shut off.

Throttle is a thumb throttle, with nothing else on it, unlike the 36V version that had the 3speed switch, too.

The wheel and outer motor casing are virtually identical to the 36V.
DSC03652.JPG
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Only difference I found is that the new one uses allen-heads to secure the covers while my 36V used phillips (which stripped easy at the heads).
DSC03655.JPG
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The motors look a little different, bieng coated in red primer or paint:
DSC03653.JPG
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Planetary is still the same freewheeling type on this one, but on the other one (there are two complete 48V motors, one in the wheel and one not laced in one) it is a non-freewheeling setup that is lighter and simpler, and also capable of regen:
DSC03656.JPG
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Both motors are slightly cooked, as expected, since they died in the 2010 meltoff. :) Hall sensors are suspected to be the problem but I'll have to test them to find out.
DSC03654.JPG
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DSC03658.JPG
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Controller is significantly larger; teh difference between a 9-FET and 6-FET.
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but it still opens up on top like the old one, which I think is clever and useful (though perhaps less environmentally sealed)
DSC03647.JPG
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Assembly doesnt' appear to be as good, though. They used giant globs of heatsink paste, when none at all was even warranted:
DSC03648.JPG
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They already have the gray thermal spreader/electrical insulator, so having paste is unnecessary and probably does not help even when there is not so much that it actually prevents the FETs from being seated fully against the case. :roll: I'd not be surprized to find the controller istelf damaged by heat, but I don't think it is.

Also interesting is that they use two different kinds of FETS. Presumably one is on the Highside and the other two on the Lowside, but I haven't measured it yet. The farthest left one is an LM317 regulator.
DSC03649.JPG
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Lots of unused pads in the controller, just like the 36V unit. Same designer/manufacturere, too, from what I can tell. Maybe same MCU.

We'lll see how they actually work after I diagnose and fix the motors themselves (assuming it's possble). If it's not fixable I'll at least have spare planetaries fro the 36V, plus a complete wheel and extra case for modification experiments. :)


If I can make them work, I'd like to use the pair of them on this trike. One in the right wheel, and the other in the pedal drivetrain so that it can go thru the pedal gears. Probably by running thru the pedal input into a freewheel on the motor body, with it mounted in dropouts added to the bottom of the Trek's rear triangle. Then from the motor body to the trike input sprocket. With that I'd have at least 3 speeds for the motor plus perhaps 9 for pedallling.



Now to ponder in sleep what things I must do to make this all fit together. :)
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby texaspyro » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:32 pm

I think the dogs said it best... "Oh, no! Here he goes again!" :wink:

This just in from Wall Street: Duct tape and cable tie futures soar on rumors from Arizona! Day Glo paint manufacturers scramble to meet anticipated demand! :lol:
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby BLUESTREAK » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:28 am

:lol: :lol: AMBERWOLF has got a TRIKE, I like your style :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby neptronix » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:49 am

A trike add on kit? I didn't know anyone produced such a thing! way cool man!
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby AussieJester » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:06 am

neptronix wrote:A trike add on kit? I didn't know anyone produced such a thing! way cool man!


Trike Conversion Kit

Image

One of a few they sell...

Good job Amberwolf ;-)

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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby amberwolf » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:42 am

Only mine was about $150 less than that. :lol: Not chrome, though; originally was the same coppery flake as the Schwinn frame that forms the back of CrazyBike2; perhaps from the same era. Texaspyro is probably right about it eventually being dayglo. ;)

I've got a name for this one, though, finally: The Delta Tripper, as a sort of play on the DC-X Delta Clipper cargo spacecraft. Title of OP is edited to include that now. :) Might end up with a NASA-style paintjob of black and white, or something. Gotta find pics of the DC-X and see if I can mock up a paint scheme for it (assuming I ever have enough paint of the right colors).

I didn't get anything done on it today because I was doing little tidy-up bits on CrazyBike2 I've meant to do since race day, then had to work till after midnight for inventory at work. Got home and took care of the dogs, who are now pinning me down to the bed so I don't go anywhere without them knowing. :lol: Gonna doze off probably soon, too, but figured I'd get this in before then.

Have decided on 26" wheels for now, if I can lace one up with the spokes I've got and that Sachs hub. Think I have tires that will work; not as smooth as the 24" ones I got for CrazyBike2, but good enough I guess. May have to patch one of them since I think the sidewall has an imminent failure IIRC.

Still lots of pondering left to do before I can actually build some of it.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby dogman dan » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:30 am

I never got around to sending you a message with some info on that 48v stuff. It does still have a three speed switch, it's just on the other side. Not well marked what it is, but it's the three position switch on the left side handlebar switch box. Should be nothing wrong with the 48v controller, or the switches and wires. I just melted down those motors hall sensors I think. Wierd, I couldn't melt the 36v motor. I think they got hold of a bad batch of halls mabye?

Once again, the fusin guys sure like to use a lot of wire. Personally, I'd prefer less clutter on the handlebars, and put the switches on the headlight or something. Just have a throttle and horn button on one side.

I like that trike kit! I keep meaning to relace my trikes wheels and get it up and running again. But the reason for it, a nearby wallmart never got built when the economy tanked. To go into town was awkward on the trike, because of the huge hill to climb. The new wallyworld was supposed to be up top where I live.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby amberwolf » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:10 pm

dogman wrote:It does still have a three speed switch, it's just on the other side. Not well marked what it is, but it's the three position switch on the left side handlebar switch box.

Yep; I noted that in the post below that pic. ;) I actually like the switch (mechanically) better than the rocker, I think, though I haven't tried it out in practice yet.

I just melted down those motors hall sensors I think. Wierd, I couldn't melt the 36v motor. I think they got hold of a bad batch of halls mabye?

Or they just went cheap with them. Much more likely the 48V unit is simply capable of more power and thus makes the motor a lot hotter inside than the 36V. Having a 9FET controller vs a 6FET makes me lean towards that, because even if it was only 6FET at 48V vs 36V, it would already be capable of 1/3 more power total. At 48V plus whatever current limit increase from the extra FETs (if any), it could allow a lot more power, maybe another 1/3 of the new total (WAG)?

I've gotta get time soon to do the tests that will see if what's wrong is with the halls; I ought to be able to do that quickly. All I have to do is power it up with the controller and measure the halls; I already have an LED board I made for testing stuff with the original Fusin and the Methods controller that should help (but has no connectors right now; has to be soldered to the hall wires or at least shoved in thru the back of the harness connectors).


Once again, the fusin guys sure like to use a lot of wire. Personally, I'd prefer less clutter on the handlebars, and put the switches on the headlight or something. Just have a throttle and horn button on one side.

They seem to be trying to combine user-interface stuff in what appears to be more useful ways, clustering things to either give more options or to keep it simpler for the operation of it, rather than for simplifying the installation of it. I'd applaud them for that, but there are still ways to simplify installation even with optmizing the control layout for the user. :) I'll probably wind up recabling stuff so that I can do it my own way, especially since my handlebars on the trike these will probably go on will be like CrazyBike2's, vertically-oriented cruiser bars.


I like that trike kit! I keep meaning to relace my trikes wheels and get it up and running again. But the reason for it, a nearby wallmart never got built when the economy tanked. To go into town was awkward on the trike, because of the huge hill to climb. The new wallyworld was supposed to be up top where I live.

Hmm. Seems odd, because to me having a trike should make it *easier* for hill climbs, as one can go as slow as one likes without falling over, and thus keep power usages to a minimum (pedal *or* motor). Especially with a cargo load that on a bike might be significantly unbalancable, depending on what you have to carry.

I like the kit too--it actually is in two parts. The axle assembly is separate from the rack and wheel stay/dropouts frame; they bolt together. This will allow some greater freedom for modification later once I determine exactly what I need to do to optimize it for this trike (or some other).
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby lifepo4ever » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:26 pm

i like the idea of making a trike but here where i live i will be dead in a week because car driver don't respect cyclist and a trike is large compare to a ebike but i like the sport position above the ground :D :D
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby lifepo4ever » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:30 pm

amberwolf wrote:The Fusin stuff should prove useful. There's a second headlight/key/powermeter unit
DSC03643.JPG

and a taillight of sorts
DSC03641.JPG

but the tailight actually uses WHITE LEDs with a red filter over them. :roll:
DSC03640.JPG

which is why the red is so dim in the previous pic. :( If they had used Red LEDs they'd be way brighter for the cost of them and same power usage. But I think they made this unit to be headlight or taillight simply by changing the lens, because:
DSC03638.JPG

they ALSO used a YELLOW reflector in it! Should be red....it's such a crappy reflector that even a camera flash doesn't net you much light from it, even at only a couple of feet. :roll: It's actually identical to most of the pedal reflectors I've seen or had, except that it appears to be missing whatever quality it is taht makes those so very shiny. ;)
DSC03639.JPG


They went with chrome ebrake handles for this kit, insead of black like my 36V kit.
DSC03642.JPG

Also, they combined what had been a separate left-side control for just a horn button plus the throttle's 3-speed switch into a new left-side control that contains an on-off switch for the headlight and taillight. Previously that wasnt' needed, as the light was always on if the key was on, as I think it should be. But on this kit, the keyswitch ONLY shuts off the controller by using an enable/disable line, rather than cutting power to it, so you can run the lights even with the cotnroller shut off.

Throttle is a thumb throttle, with nothing else on it, unlike the 36V version that had the 3speed switch, too.

The wheel and outer motor casing are virtually identical to the 36V.
DSC03652.JPG

Only difference I found is that the new one uses allen-heads to secure the covers while my 36V used phillips (which stripped easy at the heads).
DSC03655.JPG


The motors look a little different, bieng coated in red primer or paint:
DSC03653.JPG

Planetary is still the same freewheeling type on this one, but on the other one (there are two complete 48V motors, one in the wheel and one not laced in one) it is a non-freewheeling setup that is lighter and simpler, and also capable of regen:
DSC03656.JPG

Both motors are slightly cooked, as expected, since they died in the 2010 meltoff. :) Hall sensors are suspected to be the problem but I'll have to test them to find out.
DSC03654.JPG

DSC03658.JPG


Controller is significantly larger; teh difference between a 9-FET and 6-FET.
DSC03644.JPG

DSC03645.JPG

but it still opens up on top like the old one, which I think is clever and useful (though perhaps less environmentally sealed)
DSC03647.JPG

Assembly doesnt' appear to be as good, though. They used giant globs of heatsink paste, when none at all was even warranted:
DSC03648.JPG

They already have the gray thermal spreader/electrical insulator, so having paste is unnecessary and probably does not help even when there is not so much that it actually prevents the FETs from being seated fully against the case. :roll: I'd not be surprized to find the controller istelf damaged by heat, but I don't think it is.

Also interesting is that they use two different kinds of FETS. Presumably one is on the Highside and the other two on the Lowside, but I haven't measured it yet. The farthest left one is an LM317 regulator.
DSC03649.JPG


Lots of unused pads in the controller, just like the 36V unit. Same designer/manufacturere, too, from what I can tell. Maybe same MCU.

We'lll see how they actually work after I diagnose and fix the motors themselves (assuming it's possble). If it's not fixable I'll at least have spare planetaries fro the 36V, plus a complete wheel and extra case for modification experiments. :)


If I can make them work, I'd like to use the pair of them on this trike. One in the right wheel, and the other in the pedal drivetrain so that it can go thru the pedal gears. Probably by running thru the pedal input into a freewheel on the motor body, with it mounted in dropouts added to the bottom of the Trek's rear triangle. Then from the motor body to the trike input sprocket. With that I'd have at least 3 speeds for the motor plus perhaps 9 for pedallling.



Now to ponder in sleep what things I must do to make this all fit together. :)


why the winding are so brown? is it the heat it looks burn :D
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0

Postby amberwolf » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:19 pm

lifepo4ever wrote:why the winding are so brown? is it the heat it looks burn :D

Yes, as it says in the words of mine you quoted but perhaps did not read fully. ;) :P
amberwolf wrote:Both motors are slightly cooked, as expected, since they died in the 2010 meltoff. :) Hall sensors are suspected to be the problem but I'll have to test them to find out.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:34 am

I got the metal to be used in the dropout plates today, from a friend; they used to be the bumper mounts on a truck. They're the black metal brackets in the bottom-middle of the pic:
DSC03772.JPG
DSC03772.JPG (58.13 KiB) Viewed 7515 times

The rest is some 12V and 48V fans, and a couple of interesting displays (more about them here:
viewtopic.php?p=333289#p333289

The plates are 1/8" steel, and I'll probably cut them into halves on each one to make the plates I will need on each side to mount the wheels on. THen drill and file the holes in them for axles with flats, etc.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:20 pm

Finally got some time today to ponder more about the trike. I was going thru the frames I have, considering taking some rear triangles or other tubing from them to build the bits I need to extend the trike kit forward a foot or two (so I have somewhere to sit, behind the front frame's seatpost where my handlebars are going to be, but forward of the rear axle by as far as I can manage).

In the process I remembered a nice Schwinn Traveller frame I have, brazed together with stainless brackets/etc., but which is FAR too tall for me to ever actually ride as a bike. So I bolted it onto the kit (reversing the kit's top rack so it'd sit level), and took some pics:
DSC03813.JPG
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That toptube is about belly-button height!
DSC03812.JPG
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Talk about your roomy triangles. :)

I am seriously considering using this frame for the trike's front end instead of the trek (especially since I want to use the Trek on the front of the other cargo bike). One thing the high toptube would allow is a set of cargo pods slung from them, hanging down out of the way of the knees/legs/front wheel, that could still hold some decent amount of cargo; help balance out the load on the trike when I have lots of heavy stuff.

The triangle is so large I could put ALL of my NiMH AND the Vpower pack in there. I *think* I could instead fit all 10 TS60Ah cells, for possibly even longer range / higher current-draw-capability but slower speeds. :)

Comparison shot with the Trek frame:
DSC03821.JPG
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I'd be putting a clamp-on steerer tube just to the side of or behind the seatpost, perhaps, or another idea I had while staring at it is to use a much thinner handlebar-clamp stem (would have to make this) that goes into bearings like those from hubmotors, down into the seatpost, and held in place with the seatpost clamp. Either way, the steering linkage can go parallel with the top tube, since it is so high up already, and will look neater than CrazyBike2's that runs above the toptube some distance.

If I run it out to the side far enough, I also won't have any issues with inability to turn the bars/wheel as far to the side as I need, like I do with CB2, which has a very limited steering ability (requiring very hard leans to turn in short radii).

There is one serious issue I have to decide what to do about: The headtube is only 1". So it won't fit the 1.125" steerer on the disc-brake suspension fork I want to use. :( It's only in there in the pics because I pulled out the bottom bearing race (very easy to do, for some reason, just twisted it by hand to pull out, unlike the top one which is in there good).

Additionally, the 1.125" threadless steerer is too short by about two or three inches to go thru the top of that really really long headtube.
DSC03816.JPG
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THis means my most likely solution is to remove the 1.125" steerer tube from the fork, and replace it with the 1" threaded steerer from the original fork that came with this frame. I think I can do that easily enough, since everything involved is steel.


I still need to figure out what I'll do to extend the trike kit, but now I have a better idea what the whole thing will look like. It's going to be a strange trike, I think. :)

I might be able to use the fork legs from the original fork (assuming I have to take it's steerer off) to make part of the length-extension for the kit, so that the old front dropouts are what then bolt to the rear dropouts. Even if I don't have to take the steerer off this fork, I can still use some other fork legs I've got around for the same purpose. I'd just be welding them directly to the front of the trike kit where the original bolt-on U sticks out in front.

If I do it this way, then I can also bolt a Fusin hubmotor right there in the rear dropouts, so that it's axle would be the securing bolt for the two sets of dropouts.
DSC03820.JPG
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I'd probably actually end up fixing only the front end of the fork legs to anything, at that axle point, plus perhaps welding a plate onto them that can be clamped/bolted to the seatstays. Then leave the back end of them pivotable on a bushing or bearing, so that I can then use those little shocks I show in the original pics at the start of this thread to give some rear suspension.

Optionally, I might just go for a really tough fixed-rear frame, and weld these two square-tube sections to the trike kit's axle housing, then bolt/clamp them to the chainstays all the way up to the BB. The kit would actually be farther back than you see in the pic, so that the larger flat ends of the tubes would end up with their faces on teh front of the axle tube. Also the fork legs wouldn't be on there, I just didn't move things to make the pic with.
DSC03822.JPG
DSC03822.JPG (52.07 KiB) Viewed 7316 times

I could still have the rear suspension using them, if I weld on bushing or bearing mounts to the axle housing, and then make pivot points on the ends of the square tubes.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:18 am

Well, my first attempt to actually USE this kit ended up on CrazyBike2 for an experiment.
viewtopic.php?p=336930#p336930
Not exactly a dismal failure, but it certainly proved to me some things I have read about delta trikes and weight distribution, etc. as regards turning. :(
Image
At least I am now forewarned by experience with this, so I can avoid as much of the problems as possible on the Delta Tripper build (and make it much lower, perhaps with only 20" rear wheels and 24" front, or even less...16" and 20" perhaps).


We'll see when I get that far; for now I have to return CB2 to a bike, as it sure isn't workable as a trike right now. :)
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:49 pm

So a couple years later (where does the time go? :?) I have slowly gotten some things ready on this trike idea, but it's nowhere close to even pedal-only operation. I won't have any more time to work on it for a while yet.

Because of another thread or two about delta trikes recently, I spent a few minutes and bolted together the stuff I had done for it, so I can take some pics.

IMG_6619.JPG
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I decided to forego any suspension, and use a lightweigth but strong old cromoly Trek 800 Antelope frame, but it does have a couple of problems: I have to somehow get the remnants of the original BB cups out of the BB shell, so I can install a working BB in there--preferably the CA V3 Thun BB so I can try a fully pedalec trike system. If I can't get the BB remnants out, I'll either have to weld a different BB shell on there, or use a different frame. Then there's the headtube, which is only 1"--the fork I really want to use (from LI-ghtcycle) is 1-1/8", a Trek cromoly U-fork. So I have to use the U-fork off the old Schwinn Sierra for now.

IMG_6620.JPG
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IMG_6621.JPG
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The pics show a DD ampedbikes hubmotor in a bionx rim (from Ohzee) on the right of the trike, but it will be the Fusin geared hub from this bike:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =4&t=39877
in it's 26" wheel.


I may go 24" instead of 26", but that would require using an older smaller Fusin gearmotor I already have laced in 24" instead, or find spokes that would allow me to lace the newer bigger Fusin into a 24". I'd rather not do that.

I do have a 3-speed hub (shimano 333 I think, from Spinningmagnets) laced up in a 24", though it still needs serious truing, but for now it's going to use a 26" rim from Bikefanatic/Ianmcnally2, and a Sachs 3-speed torpedo with coaster brake also from Spinningmagnets, laced up with spokes off a wheel from a junk bike given to me by a local friend.
IMG_6623.JPG
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IMG_6624.JPG
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I'd actaully like to go 20", for stabilty in turns, but I'd be building new whels for both the 3-speed IGH and the hubmotor. I do have a 20" front wheel I could use, and I think an old BMX U fork with brake studs for rim brakes.


This is how the axle transmits power to the IGH:
IMG_6622.JPG
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This is how it gets to the axle from the pedal chainline (which terminates on this sprocket)
IMG_6625.JPG
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IMG_6626.JPG
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Note that I have it offset to one side becaues it will help keep the chain in line better with the cranks, and because the bike frame is a lot wider than this kit was built for. I will also probably use a derailer on there so that I can still use a 3-ring crankset, and be able to shift for more gears if I do need to pedal the thing for any reason. Since it's a trike, I can keep them all low gears, I guess, but I'll probably just use one of my 48-38-28 Shimano ovoid cranksets.


Plans to be implemented someday:

--Rebuild the cargo rack on the trike kit so it sits lower, against the axle, and includes a rack under the axle for batteries and toolbox, adding as much of the weight of things below the axle as I possibly can, for stability in turns.

--add the frame extensions to the rack so it can bolt to the brake studs on the bike frame's seat stays, or a tube to go up to the seatpost/stay point and clamp on there.

--beef up the interconnects on the trike frame, as they weren't meant to take the loads I'm gonna put on this thing. ;)

--add brake studs to the trike's frame for rim brakes.

--add a small motor to the chainline to drive the system more efficiently (thru the geared hub), or at least as a backup motor.

--possibly add a front hubmotor instead.

--add a tilting mechanism between bike and trike sections so I can lean the bike part in turns.

--replace the standard saddle with a sling-frame 'bent seat.

--widen the rightside "stays" of the trike so it will hold a regular rear wheel width, like 130-150mm; right now i's only meant fo r 110 or 120mm I think.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby Sancho's Horse » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:07 am

I am coming to grips with slow. I am currently spending all kinds of time time messing with pie plates. :D It is a lot of fun, but this is how slow happens isn't it? Oh well, to many irons in the fire, better than out in the cold.

So...with this arrangement each side has a freewheel? No? Yes? It acts like a differential?

I thought I had settled this on my build a long time ago. But I have gotten all kinds of different opinions...and with as wide as mine is, I just worry that (although it could have a limited slip type differential in the wheel bearings) the width is going to increase the effect of having wheels going the same speed when they really should be going different speeds during turns.

I also worry that high power could prevent the wheel bearing type differential from being effective. I sent an email to Worksman, but haven't heard back (may never, hard to say). I also considered using a differential like the one rkosiorek is using. Those are usually prebuilt though, but if I really dislike the handling, I thought I could probably use my axle, but drill out a one inch hole in the differential gears, pin it, braze it, and use it. I just don''t really know which way to go.

Do you have any advice?
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:13 am

Sancho's Horse wrote:I am coming to grips with slow. I am currently spending all kinds of time time messing with pie plates. :D It is a lot of fun, but this is how slow happens isn't it? Oh well, to many irons in the fire, better than out in the cold.

True. I used to get so much done in so many projects, but the last few years have been harder and harder.

So...with this arrangement each side has a freewheel? No? Yes? It acts like a differential?

The way my kit works, everything is independent--no axle connections. In addition, the IGH in the left wheel has a freewheel, and the Fusin geared hub that will be the right wheel does too.


I don't know how yours will perform with the wider track. I would still like to widen mine, but as discussed before I'd have to have a way to narrow it to fit thru the front door.

I also worry that high power could prevent the wheel bearing type differential from being effective.

I'm not sure what you mean, exactly?

High power might damage pawls in freewheels, if that's the thing you're worried about.

One reason I am using this trike kit isntead of building something with a differential is mostly because I already have it, but also because the wheels are independent, and should prevent the possible issues with stuff like that.

But I also have a powerchair motor with a differential and axle for two wheels, which I have considered taking otu of hte (still fuctnional) powerchair and using for a trike. But most likely I will keep independent wheels.


I ahve only a teensy bit of trike experience so far, not even a quarter mile of riding this kit on CrazyBike2, so until I get it built as above I can't say a lot.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:23 am

what with cold, rain, weahter changeset c, everythin ghurts too much and ic ant concentrate wellenough to do physicla work on things, soidid som eseketches about the frame forthe back.

itd be 34" wide and 30" frotn to back. made of that red square tubning saved fmr work. thats about .8lbs/foot, so around 30lbs of tubing if i did the maht right. will rplace the whole "rack" and "stays" thatare onthe re now, i guess 10lbs so not that bda, only ads 20lbs..

will be a big box aroudn whiole trike kti, basically.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby agniusm » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:21 pm

amberwolf wrote:Yesterday I was at a neighborhood bike shop (Build-A-Bike) and saw this in their used parts stack:
DSC03688.JPG

It's an old bolt-on trike "kit". Left side drive only, but that's ok, as it gives me some options a differential drive wouldn't.


Perhaps you know if there is some light rear axle with differential to use on 4 wheel velomobile?
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby Sancho's Horse » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:49 pm

Any idea how much torque you are wanting to put through it?

There is a decent variety of differentials between the lawn mower and go kart markets. Everything from lightweight aluminum housed, to heavy duty steel, and pretty good range in between. If you get your torque requirements, talk with a lawnmower dealer away from your area until you identify which models have the range of torque needed. Lawn mower market is a high dollar market, so they are willing to do some research for you if they smell a sale. I would say I was looking for a lawnmower able to move a certain size and weight load garden cart, or even give the Nm you want. Once I identified models able to take the torque you are interested in, you could either order a replacement part, or...I would find some lawnmower repair junker type guys and see if they have any of the models you are intereseted in used for junk replacement parts. With the moving parts housed in a casing, they usually have a lot of functionality left, and any deterioration on the outside, can usually be handles spinning it up and putting some emory cloth to it (if you like purty).
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:51 pm

agniusm wrote:Perhaps you know if there is some light rear axle with differential to use on 4 wheel velomobile?


i dont know if aanyone still sels it but i've seen trikes that use a double freewheel to make a differentail, each one driven from one flagne of a 3speed hbu.
http://thoxbui.com/shopblog/slides/IMG_0332.html
looks easy to maek. uses separaet axles fro left and right wheehls, fw mounted to inner end f each axle. sprockets riveted to each flange of the hub mounted in front of the diff.
Trike Differential.JPG
Trike Differential.JPG (125.59 KiB) Viewed 6402 times


if you need to put a lot of power trhu it you cuould use one off a powerchair like this, inputting yoru power fmor whatever drivetrian into wher the old brushe dmotor owuld've gone
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/78113/ ... =17#manual
lynx_l3x_17_bg.jpg
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on my own project i figured out a way to make expandable dropouts so i can use either front or rear wheels in them. htat way i can use the 3spped igh wheel for peadaling thru, or can siwtch to a regular derailer-shifted wheel, or a nuvinci171 wehel, or even a big dd motor hub wheel, on either side.

if i use the button-release bits off the red tubngi, andadd a hole for each dropurt width i wan,t i can simply "slide" the whole sied frame in or out one cornre at a time.


maybe later i can figure outhow to od that for the whole trike kit in the middled so i can make ti a lot wider track for stability and better cargo csapce but still get it thru a odoorway.
IMG_6627.JPG
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby agniusm » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:25 pm

Thanks a lot. It sure makes sense with freewheels and by the looks easy to make it myself. Why did i not think about it this way ?? :roll:
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby amberwolf » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:49 pm

i never thoght of that either, until i saw it in tho's shop pics after i started talking to him about his ebikes. he described how it worked after i asked abotu it, and then it all made sense lik eone of those duh moments. :lol:

i was gonna buld one like that until i got the trike kit i have in this thread, which was suppose to be built inot a trike as soon as i gt it. 2 years later im actually doing it cuz i am having some days i can't ride a bike now; even with the low-to-the-ground crazybike2 where i can put my feet flat while staying seated, i can't always move my legs down to ground fast enouhg to keep from tipping. most of the time the cargo pods stop me from actually falling over but friday i did tip over at a 4-way stop, and took me 20 minutes to get the bike back upright and rest enough to get back riding again. :(

viewtopic.php?p=684524#p684524
Last edited by amberwolf on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

Postby Chalo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:47 pm

The Sachs Torpedo 3 is the finest three-speed hub ever made, in my opinion.

Those fasteners holding the bike frame to the trike subframe are nasty, and undersized too. If you don't want to pony up for some graded 3/8" or 10mm bolts, then use short chunks of threaded bike axle and axle nuts. They're much stronger than what you have there. You can use axle spacers and axle washers to do your offset, too. Or else just resize the bike frame down to 110mm spacing, which is what the subframe was designed to interface with.

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

The drawback of using overrunning freewheels on a two-wheel drive trike is that the pedals will only drive the slower wheel. One-wheel drive trikes have a "good" turning direction and a "bad" direction, because in a tight turn the inside wheel comes almost to a stop, and if that's the drive wheel it's almost as if the pedals are locked out.

On a trike with a real differential gear like a Peerless axle, both turning directions become "good". On a trike with a dual-overrunning phony-differential axle setup, both turning directions become "bad".

Don't use a frame that's too tall for you to stand over; the day-to-day implications are miserable. Even if the steer tube on your preferred fork were the right diameter, it would not be long enough. No suspension fork has ever been manufactured with such a long head tube in mind, unless it was some kind of proprietary special for a small-wheeled bike.

If you want a really generous space inside the frame, hold out for a 1980s mountain bike with a level top tube and non-suspension fork. Those are shaped rather like traditional road bike frames, but they are a little longer front to back, and they top out about three inches shorter in frame height.

Bicycle steering geometry is all wrong for trikes-- it's designed to keep the bike steering itself back underneath you as the bike tilts. Trikes don't tilt, so bike geometry just destabilizes the trike and interferes with normal steering. A trike must have minimal steering trail to operate safely and predictably. That means longer fork offset, a steeper head angle, or both.

Putting a smaller front wheel on a bike frame used as a trike benefits the trike in two ways: By tilting the bike frame forward, it steepens the head angle, reducing trail. And the smaller wheel radius yields a proportionally smaller natural trail dimension for any given head angle. Both those things make the trike behave better than it would with unmodified bicycle steering parts.

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