New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

What's the Difference between the old 5x 4x and the new HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24 Crystalyte Motor series? anyone?
And are they sensorless?

vodka said:

What's the Difference between the old 5x 4x and the new HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24 Crystalyte Motor series? anyone?
And are they sensorless?

Click to expand...

The Hx25 is the front wheel version
The Hx35 is the rear wheel version

the "T" stand for Torque, faster start but more power, but less top speed
The "S" stand for Speed, slower start but high speed

The Hx series is like in between 4x and 5x, 9c, Bionx, all mix into two version (front and rear) of motors.
All Hx series is sensorless. More detail information will posting shortly.

Ken

itselectric said:

vodka said:

What's the Difference between the old 5x 4x and the new HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24 Crystalyte Motor series? anyone?
And are they sensorless?

Click to expand...

The Hx24 is the front wheel version
The Hx35 is the rear wheel version

the "T" stand for Torque, faster start but more power, but less top speed
The "S" stand for Speed, slower start but high speed

The Hx series is like in between 4x and 5x, 9c, Bionx, all mix into two version (front and rear) of motors.
All Hx series is sensorless. More detail information will posting shortly.

Ken

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation !

That mean they finally decided yo make rear motor more powerfull than the front one... that make sense.

Have you any pictures of the stator or inside .. that would help revelating the degree of performance and power they can do. ??

These pictures posted on crystalyte website are wrong and i remember we posted the correction to them with the real data we measured about the stator dimensions. i'll try to find that and post teh link

from Crystalyte website:





The correction i made that make more sense according to real measurement and existing confirmed data :



Here is the thread about stator measurement :

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23963&hilit=7400

HT2425 weight 12.60 lbs
HS2440 weight 12.88 lbs
HT3525 weight 16.60 lbs
HS3540 weight 16.38 lbs


Performance information will be next.
Ken

cheers for that Ken!
so they also have to come up with new sensor less controllers I suppose?

itselectric said:

HT2425 weight 12.60 lbs
HS2440 weight 12.88 lbs
HT3525 weight 16.60 lbs
HS3540 weight 16.38 lbs

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so in metric measures that means:

HT2425 weight 12.60 lbs = 5.71 kilograms
HS2440 weight 12.88 lbs = 5.84 kilograms
HT3525 weight 16.60 lbs = 7.52 kilograms
HS3540 weight 16.38 lbs = 7.42 kilograms


X5303 rear is about 11.00 kilograms
X406 rear is about 5.50 kilograms

Doctorbass said:

Have you any pictures of the stator or inside .. that would help revelating the degree of performance and power they can do. ??

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Doc, I will get to the motor inside shortly, just trying to collect the external information first.

vodka said:

so they also have to come up with new sensor less controllers I suppose?

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Yes, Crystalyte now had sensorless controller, only available in metal case, which is similar to previous digital controller case. The configuration that are offer by Crystalyte as the following:

36/48v 25amp (short metal case)
36/48v 35amp
36/48v 40amp
72v 40amp
72v 48amp

They will no offer any 36-72v version due to some other problem.

Ken

I wanted to compare the new series with other motors, so i just use what i have on hand at the moment:

- Crystlayte 408
- Hx series
- Crystalyte 5304
- Bionx PL350


Cover plate dimension, this will kind of give you the dimension of stator:

408 6.75" 171mm
Hx 8.75" 222 mm
9c 8.85" 223 mm
Bionx 7.815" 198.5mm
5304 9.25" 234 mm

Ken
View attachment 5
Flange distance
Hx24 front 1.475" 36.5mm
Hx35 Rear 1.5" 38mm
9c rear 1.69" 43mm
Bionx rear 1.375" 34.9mm

DOC CHECK YOUR PM...

markobetti said:

DOC CHECK YOUR PM...

Click to expand...

checked....


now Faster Project for 2011

Here is some of performance comparison:

based on this performance chart:
- HT3525 is very close performance to 408
- HS3540 will out perform 5304
- HS3540 will out perform 9C 2807
- HT2425 is the slowest of all of Hx series
- HS2440 and HS3540 has a very close performance

more pictures and measurement are coming...

Thanks Ken, I follow any updates on that!

Btw.. What exactly is the stator width ( WITHOUT the wires on each sides).. I mean just the core of the winding... 38mm?

Doc

I see 12x5 written on the stator hmmm.

Are you sure that's an Xlyte stator? It doesn't look anything like those in other threads about the new motors.
Straight instead of angled stator slots, 52 coils without the copper wasteful overlapping windings, lots of magnets, and dual stamped steel plates riveted together to form the spoke portion of the stator...a wholesale change in the motor design. Maybe Clyte is about to capitalize on its name with some new mass produced motors out of another factory and stamping Crystalyte on the covers. If so, I hope the price comes way down.

The man has a point. I noticed it earlier but I didnt say nothing since I dont have one in my hand. I personally like the old style stators this new stamped stuff just screams shortcut.

the stamped stator has to weigh less, that is a + .. but it's very non-clyte !!! :lol:

John in CR said:

Are you sure that's an Xlyte stator? It doesn't look anything like those in other threads about the new motors.
Straight instead of angled stator slots, 52 coils without the copper wasteful overlapping windings, lots of magnets, and dual stamped steel plates riveted together to form the spoke portion of the stator...a wholesale change in the motor design. Maybe Clyte is about to capitalize on its name with some new mass produced motors out of another factory and stamping Crystalyte on the covers. If so, I hope the price comes way down.

Click to expand...

John:

It is absolutely crystalyte stator, got them directly from crystalyte.

The Hx series is the newest crystalyte product line in 2011. It is really a mix of 9c, xlyte 4x, 5x, Bionx all in one.

The similarity to 9c is stamped steel plate. It reduce the weight of the motor instead of using cast stator, it is also cheaper to produce. As result, we will see crystalyte motor price drop $50 - $80 less the current pricing (each dealers may price differently).

408 motor weight 16 lbs (7.25kg) , and 5304 weight 24 lbs (10.86kg)
Hx front motor weight 12 lbs (5.4kg)
Hx rear motor weight 16 lbs (7.25kg)

Instead of using curved magnet in the motor case, it has been changed to smaller and straight magnet. This also help to reduce production cost.

The similarity to Bionx is the exterior motor case. The disc mount is very close design to Bionx motor case. The Bionx had the narrowest flange distance 35mm, Crystalyte Hx had 38mm. Which doesn’t require any dishing to the wheel.

By increasing the dimension of the stator, it will provide more power.

408 stator dimension is about 171mm
5304 stator dimension is 204mm
Bionx stator is about 190mm
Hx stator is 198.4mm

What really surprise to me is that Crystalyte came out with the sensorless controller and motor combination. I am a big fan of senorless controller, I have been asking Crystlayte to make sensorless controller for many years. They finally make one this year. However, during my early testing, if I have to run at 72v 40 - 50amp controller, I still wanted my senored controller and motor combination.

Ken

stator width

408 - 42mm
5304 pre-2008 33mm
5304 2008 32mm
Hx24 25mm
Hx35 35mm

Few days ago, i have received 2 HS3540 motors from crystalyte, compared to X5 series motor quality of HS35 ir very bad. Stator width is only 31.2mm. Does anybody knows what mechanical power limit has these new crystalyte motors ? Is it safe to drive them >5kW ? Here is some pictures.

View attachment HS3540 small.jpg

View attachment HS3540 small1.jpg

dexterlt said:

Few days ago, i have received 2 HS3540 motors from crystalyte, compared to X5 series motor quality of HS35 ir very bad. Stator width is only 31.2mm. Does anybody knows what mechanical power limit has these new crystalyte motors ? Is it safe to drive them >5kW ? Here is some pictures.

Click to expand...

A wider stator doesn't always translated better, as I have listed from above differ width of stator:
408 - 42mm
5304 pre-2008 33mm
5304 2008 32mm
Hx24 25mm
Hx35 35mm

A 408 is 42mm, does it mean it is more powerful? 5304 only had only 31.6mm, does it is mean it is weaker motor? When you make the stator wider, other problem will show up like disc brake will not align, freewheel with not fit, etc... It's all about balancing power, speed, lighter weight, cost, production, etc... to make fine motor.

Hx35 is a like mix in between 408, 9c, 5304, a bit of Bionx (narrow motor case that can fit 7,8, 9 freewheel easily).
- the motor is lighter then both 408, 5304
- the construction is almost like 9c stamped stator (it makes the motor lighter, and cheaper to manufacture)
- the magnet no longer sharped in curve, but standard straight magnet, it reduce the cost
- the motor case is extremely narrow, in the flange distance, bionx is 35mm, Hx35 is 38mm, which mean no dishing necessary

Ken

I had in mind weaker construction of stator. Heat transfer from windings is very poor using two stamped metal plates. Also strength of connecting point of stamped metal plates with stator plates in my opinion can be weak for using >5kW.

dexterlt said:

I had in mind weaker construction of stator. Heat transfer from windings is very poor using two stamped metal plates. Also strength of connecting point of stamped metal plates with stator plates in my opinion can be weak for using >5kW.

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Well, let's hope that Methods or Doctorbass or Steveo can comment on this. These are ES members tried to cook Crystalyte and 9c motor by putting extreme overload current. They would be able to provide their experience in first hand about heat transfer.

Ken

One of the things that made the old Clytes so great was the angled windings on the stator. it made the motor so much quieter. It will be interesting to see how these actualy preform

itselectric said:

dexterlt said:

I had in mind weaker construction of stator. Heat transfer from windings is very poor using two stamped metal plates. Also strength of connecting point of stamped metal plates with stator plates in my opinion can be weak for using >5kW.

Click to expand...

Well, let's hope that Methods or Doctorbass or Steveo can comment on this. These are ES members tried to cook Crystalyte and 9c motor by putting extreme overload current. They would be able to provide their experience in first hand about heat transfer.

Ken

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Basicaly, air Heat transfer is poor on any sealed motor ( i.e. hub motor)

A certain amount of heat is transfered thru the axel, but i would say max 15% no more. Between the stator and the axel, the brace that make the link are transfering a certain amount of heat and increase the effective surface in contact with the air inside the motor. More metal = more heat transfer from one point to another and also more thermal inertia... what make the big and heavy hub motor good about burst power occur just during the first Ah spent because it will just take more time to the metal core to heat up... but on the opposite it will also take more time to cool down.

Now the point is: does lighter hub motor with stamped metal plates can transfer enough heat from the stator winding to the axel and to the air like old C-lyte X5 desing...

probably yes for the low power but not for high power... dont forget that these two stamped metal plates are like sandwich and they will keep hot air between those... the perfored holes are not so big i think so this room will stay more hot... Aluminum braces ray of the X5 are more open area and i think that the air is more often exchanged.

Doc

Drunkskunk said:

One of the things that made the old Clytes so great was the angled windings on the stator. it made the motor so much quieter. It will be interesting to see how these actualy preform

Click to expand...

GREAT NEW!! non angled winding MEAN.. DELTA WYE ..OK !!

Yes.. more sound and more high frequency szzszzszzz :|

Doc