Pictures of a new geared hub motor in the pipeline.

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knoxie   10 MW

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Post by knoxie » Oct 19 2007 10:39am

Hi

Ok if you keep the motors to the rated power 350 or 500W then you wont have any problems at all, the problem comes when you move towards 1KW or above and of course how you use the motor.

At just 48V 35A it is possible to quickly wear the planetary gears with hard acceleration, this of course inst unacceptable as the motors are not rated for this power use, that said they can be made to take the increase in power.

Another thing that can happen is the free-wheel body slips on the main inner drive gear, this can be fixed simply by dropping 4 blobs of weld on to the rotor and drive gear, I did this on mine only to have the gears wear about a month later.

On my old school Puma (BMC Really) the gears have worn some and are slipping, from a dead stop if you open the throttle you go nowhere, if you go easy its fine and doesn't slip, I haven't had this motor apart nor am I too worried as I just peddle from the start and go gentle on the throttle (none of my other Pumas have done this).

The free-wheel can easily be removed, you need to use a long armed crank puller, like this one

Image

Once off you can flip the thing over, undo all 3 x circlips and remove the Nylon gears, these are pressed in to bearings, it would be easy to find the same gears in metal and get new bearings pressed in to them, this would of course make the drive more noisy but it would never break, whilst you have this removed it would be a good idea to weld the crank at the same time.

For sure the new Puma controller is better on the Pumas and is designed to run with motor, the xlyte can be used but it seems a little hit and miss on certain controllers and at certain voltages, I have never heard of any problems at 48V but 72V can be a problem as we know.

Another thing people don't need to worry about gear failure jamming the motor, if all gears fail and jam, the free-wheel allows the lot to turn together, the motor could of course not turn.

I have been a bit to busy to mess around but my next job will be replacing the gears for steel ones, I can put up with the higher level of noise for the durability factor, HPC a company in the UK stock the gears and the bearing, I just need to double check the pitch and get them ordered.

The new Puma has a much better internal gear, the ones pressed in to the inside of the motor housing don't sit that great and manufacturing tolerances in the hub casing seem rather wide at times that I feel the basket gear approach is much better, I have never seen any failures with the basket gear.

Don't be tempted to split the motor further (i.e.) removing the flywheel, this can be a nightmare to re-assemble, I had to use a lathe and a lot of swearing to get it back on and spinning true, id advise only ever removing the free-wheel.

Knoxie
Attachments
IMG_6472.JPG
The new PUMA basket type gear, much better meshing than the wheel bound gears, also they improved the compound in the gears, this gear is steel.
IMG_6472.JPG (98.53 KiB) Viewed 2644 times

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xyster   1 GW

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Post by xyster » Oct 19 2007 11:11am

knoxie wrote: At just 48V 35A it is possible to quickly wear the planetary gears with hard acceleration, this of course inst unacceptable as the motors are not rated for this power use, that said they can be made to take the increase in power.

Another thing that can happen is the free-wheel body slips on the main inner drive gear, this can be fixed simply by dropping 4 blobs of weld on to the rotor and drive gear, I did this on mine only to have the gears wear about a month later.

On my old school Puma (BMC Really) the gears have worn some and are slipping, from a dead stop if you open the throttle you go nowhere, if you go easy its fine and doesn't slip, I haven't had this motor apart nor am I too worried as I just peddle from the start and go gentle on the throttle (none of my other Pumas have done this).
I'd like a lighter motor that's also capable of at least 2.5kw, but the Puma's gear slippage issue is an unfortunate deal-breaker for me -- especially because if it slips on take-off, like a worn clutch it'll slip going up steep hills too.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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knoxie   10 MW

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Post by knoxie » Oct 19 2007 3:33pm

Hi Xyster

Yes its the only weakness at higher power that I have found, even though the newer motors have the Nylon gears they will ultimately wear in time, however at normal use under 1KW they will last for years I am sure of that.

and 1KW is enough for most folks on here, power users can simply fit steel gears and a bit more grease, the big advantage is a super light motor over the X5, with steel gears and a welded crank its a hard motor to beat, If we can get the factory to ship them in a high power setup like this that would be ideal.

Spoke to Mark (Team Hybrid) tonight, he is still going to ship the controllers (Puma) and motors so that is good news, he is also getting in stock a new 40A 72V controller as well esp designed for the Puma, the old Puma one did limit the amps to 20A at 72V as I had already figured out.

The new BMX motors havent stripped gears at 72V 30A yet so I am well happy with that, steel ones in the old school motor will make that good again, I am taking stock of the new controller next week as is Jozzer, we will both no doubt report back how we find them.

Cheers

Knoxie

solarbbq2003   10 kW

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bmc

Post by solarbbq2003 » Oct 19 2007 6:10pm

thats great knoxie, I will find a puller and have a crack at this motor freewheel

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Oct 20 2007 9:46am

Where would you find steel gears to replace the nylon ones?

It would be interesting to see what it does to the noise level. The nylon ones are very quiet.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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knoxie   10 MW

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Post by knoxie » Oct 20 2007 6:42pm

Hi Richard

Yes its no problem finding gears to replace the Nylon ones, HPC make em, I can get bearings pressed in to them as well, it would be nice for the factory to supply them as an option, the noise level wont be much greater I don't think, the only thing will be the regular application of grease over the self lubricating nylon gears, this should be ok tough, we shall see!!

Cheers

Knoxie

http://www.hpcgears.com/

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deecanio   10 MW

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Post by deecanio » Oct 21 2007 2:57am

Hi Mate,

just a thought - do HPC do stronger nylon ones?
if the steel/ally ones do end up being too noisy wouldn't be the end of the world to replace as they wear?

Cheers


D

recumbent   100 kW

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Post by recumbent » Oct 21 2007 3:33am

Hienzmann uses nylon & steel gears for thier hub drives.
Mine is 500/750 peak with metal gears and it's not as bad as you guys think it is. Different motor and all but only makes a winding-up, turbo like noise on a truck. I'm going to clean & grease the hub after 8 years and will post pictures to compare, maybe on another thread, love to get a sound clip before & after grease job.
Ebike in use:
LWB Recumbent bike, Sram i-9 internal gears.
Power: 58V, 16 amp/hr, lipo batteries.
max speed: 52 km/h (30 mph),
max range: 40 km's, incl stop&go few times, minimal pedaling.
New build: Delta recumbent trike

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knoxie   10 MW

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Post by knoxie » Oct 21 2007 1:05pm

Hi

Yes they must do a nylon alternative, they arent hard to replace either so it wouldn't put me off using the motor at high power, about a 30 min job to swap them out for new ones, I heard that some motors use 1 x steel and 2 nylon on the planetary, not sure what difference that would make, I would be happy enough on a high power rig to run greased metal ones and re-grease them.

I would be interested to see the insides of the heinzmann, I am sure a re-grease would be a good idea, they do whine even at low rpms but they are a tough and decent motor for sure, I am just a brushless motor man that's all.

As soon as I suss out the gears I will get them changed over, just enjoying riding the bikes for now.

Knoxie

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Post by Herrsprocket » Oct 22 2007 1:47am

Hi Lowell,

Couple of questions about the disc brake rotor mount. Is that thread on adaptor a 35x1 mm size or the standard (western world) size of 1.375x24 tpi? If you have a thread gauge tool, it would be easy to check out, or, if you have a "known" standard thread on freewheel ( shimano or some such) and it threads on easily all the way to the shoulder, then cool, it's the west world version. IF it's metric, it will spin on for about 3 or 4 turns and then start to bind up. Also, do you know what the bolt hole pattern size is for holding the rotor? Measuring directly across from two of the opposite holes, measure from center to center to get the size. To fit the standard rotors that we get in the states, they need to be 44mm straight across, in the 6 hole pattern. Sure would make it easier if it all fits the gear we have access too. Thanks!

Umm, this is all assuming it is a spin on adaptor, and not six holes drilled into the side plate, yes?

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docnjoj   100 GW

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nylon motor gears

Post by docnjoj » Oct 22 2007 4:02pm

This is my first post! I just updated my profile and want to mention Stock Drive Products! Check out their website for more gears than U can dream of!
David

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » Oct 23 2007 8:21am

Cool. Some good ideas there:

http://www.sdp-si.com/
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Herrsprocket   100 W

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Post by Herrsprocket » Oct 26 2007 12:47pm

Any word yet as to the specs on the adaptor?

Many hub motors have left side threading on them and the cool use of a disc brake is way yummy. Sure would be helpful to the troups to be able to utilize a standardized adaptor that we could pop our " regular" sized rotors onto.

So, got anything for us?

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Post by Herrsprocket » Nov 02 2007 3:07pm

Not trying to be "too" big of a pest, but any thoughts regarding the adaptor sizing? It would be really helpful to know, one way or another. Thanky kindly!

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rhubarb   100 mW

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nylon gears, disk brakes

Post by rhubarb » Nov 02 2007 10:09pm

This motor is almost identical to my nylon gear pumas. What sort of freewheel does it have? The puma one is a weak point.

I concur with the need to fit steel gears for high power applications. After my freewheel failures, I converted my two pumas to fixed drive, which worked fine for a while, until the motor got hot enough to weaken the nylon, and the central drive gear spun teeth out of all three nylon gears at once.

I don't think this could happen with 2 nylon and 1 steel gear.

I'm also a little concerned about heating issues, things start to smell after a while.

Mark sold me a couple of disk brake adaptors that spin straight onto a puma motor side cover. I've had no problems using them on the rear of my KMX.

As none of my pumas are currently functional, I laced up a 406 into a 20" rim to tide me over until replacements arrive. No room for a disk brake, alas, and not quite enough torque for donuts, but higher top speed of 57.6 kmh as opposed to 53kmh with the puma.
20" Super Stealthy KMX Puma (84V LiPO)
26" Fairly Stealthy Giant STP Puma (84V LiPO)
3 x 20" SillyKart Trikes (48V)

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Re: nylon gears, disk brakes

Post by recumbent » Nov 02 2007 10:39pm

rhubarb wrote: I concur with the need to fit steel gears for high power applications. After my freewheel failures, I converted my two pumas to fixed drive, which worked fine for a while, until the motor got hot enough to weaken the nylon, and the central drive gear spun teeth out of all three nylon gears at once.
I laced up a 406 into a 20" rim to tide me over until replacements arrive.
Thanks, rhubarb for this vital information. Sounds like you were using too much current for the motor to handle to get so hot to melt plastic components.
Was this 84 volts? 48 volts is still good though, right?
I have steel gears in my 8 year old Heinzmann, the noise is annoying to a 50 year old man like myself, however it's not that bad at all.
I'd like to know what your next choice of motor will be though.
Ebike in use:
LWB Recumbent bike, Sram i-9 internal gears.
Power: 58V, 16 amp/hr, lipo batteries.
max speed: 52 km/h (30 mph),
max range: 40 km's, incl stop&go few times, minimal pedaling.
New build: Delta recumbent trike

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Nov 03 2007 6:12am

The newer motors seem much stronger Rhubarb.
Strangely the one motor I thought i'd broken still works great. (after a massive overheat caused by rear brake being stuck on)
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

Nimbuzz   1 kW

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Post by Nimbuzz » Nov 03 2007 10:17pm

Jazzer, Do you have a thread here that reports on your trike?
Al
Tidalforce M750X
C-Lyte 5304, 36V, Montague
Optibike 800Li
Optibike 1100R

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Jozzer   100 kW

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Post by Jozzer » Nov 04 2007 7:41am

Not a recent one, theres some vids posted, but I think it was with an old 408 motor.
I'll get another started one of these days with some fresh pics/vids, and will have a website up too soon with details for my business. The specs of the bike change on a weekly basis as I keep testing new kit...
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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Microbatman   1 kW

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All Hungry for an X5 alternative

Post by Microbatman » Jan 25 2008 9:44pm

Jozzer wrote:Idd, 3.7kg bare. Seems its not heavier after all.

Can't wait for the X5 version of the Puma, thought this might have been it!

Yep I'm looking for the same thing. This motor looks like a very good start. But I would not feel comfortable running it at anything over 35 amps 40 volt range.

Looks to me like a turbo charged 4 cylinder motor. I would love to see more of a v6 with v8 like power.

Would more than welcome 15lb version of this type of motor good for 4500 watts continious.
With todays LiFePO4 battery chemistry it puts this type of power spec in reach.
I want 3hp -4hp. That is the power that little mini bikes have.
So lets say 750watts=1hp
Start with 6hp as motors are not 100% efficient. So 6 x 750= 4500
Then lets say efficiency = 75% (I don't believe any mfg efficiency claims of anything >80 would love to be proven wrong)
So 75% of 4500=3375
3375/750=4.5 hp

That the magic number!!! 15lbs and 3-5hp

Anyone know of anyone/place/where of such a hub motor?
MotorCrystalyte X5304 20 Inch Rear Wheel DISC Brake Controller Crystalyte 48A72V4110MOSFETS
Batteries A123 24s2p
Charger Mastech 5020
Frame Azonic Steelhead
Grateful/fortunate/blessed to have the resources and family support to enjoy my ebike hobby

Nimbuzz   1 kW

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Re: Pictures of a new geared hub motor in the pipeline.

Post by Nimbuzz » Jan 26 2008 1:41am

How many watts is a C-Lyte 5304 at 72 or 100 V?

-- How many volts would you run to get your 4500 watts?
Al
Tidalforce M750X
C-Lyte 5304, 36V, Montague
Optibike 800Li
Optibike 1100R

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