Quality Thumb Throttles

Alan B

100 GW
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
7,809
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, USA
I see many problems with throttles discussed, especially when mixed with rain, or just plain poor implementation. Sometimes they fail stuck on which is particularly bad. Other times they just strand you out there with good batteries and motor and make you pedal back.

Are there some throttles that are better? What are the good ones??

When I started here I thought the thumb throttle would not be good for me. So far it has actually worked out better than I expected, and with all the other grip shifters, brake levers, etc. it is the easiest to integrate in. It is also pretty stealthy, hardly noticeable.

One conflict is still present - operating the thumb throttle in the right side and the grip shifter. When the hill is getting steep, and it is time to downshift the last thing you want to do is release the throttle so you can shift.

So perhaps what we are looking for is a Quality Left Hand Thumb Throttle! (but quality right hand throttles should be mentioned also!)

What about one made of aluminum? Avoid the broken thumb tab, etc. And well sealed electronics to keep water out. Also a properly mounted hall sensor and magnet so they don't come loose.

I would think that the hall sensor would be intrinsically better than a pot, but some top of the line grip throttles use pots! Are the hall sensors in some way lower quality? What is it, linearity? or just better made mechanics??

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions. As always links to resources on and off ES are welcome.
 
I have plans to come up with a good machined throttle unit that can be made a thumb, half- or full-grip, just by installing the appropriate part. I jsut haven't had time to work out the design itself yet. If I can do this as DXF or similar, anyone could make one with a CNC, by porting the code over to their software.

Ideally, I'd like to have one made as a test unit for myself, then after I've proven it works, get preorders for a batch of them to be made by someone like Mdd0127 or Magudaman or others here on ES that do CNC and other machining work. Then all I have to do is install the hall sensor and magnets. Hopefully I could do them cheaply enough to still make a bit of money after postage, but even if it's only break-even at first, they'd still be a really nice "forever" throttle. :)

I have a few ideas on making them usable with various handlebar designs, too, which right now some bars you simply couldn't install the typical plastic throttle on--the curves are just too tight, or you have to take EVERYTHING off the bars and redo them to get it on there. One thought I have would make it a two-piece install, like the Honda scooter controls I have on CrazyBike2, that screw on as two halves over the bar to clamp on.

All-alloy construction should be very durable, although I might consider a hardened-steel cylinder for the full-grip throttle end, so that even if your bars land on the ground it doesnt' destroy the grip. ;)
 
I have not taken one apart yet. Is it a simple angular move the magnet toward the analog hall detector as it rotates type of design, or is there more to it?

Sounds like you have a good feature set. I would add small and stealthy to the thumb version, and both-handed versions, perhaps not with the same parts.

Also, you should charge enough to make it worth making. Too many folks don't charge enough and it is not sustainable and the manufacturing ceases after a batch.
 
One solution is to move the shifter to the left side, and mount it upside down. I was able to do that because I was only using the big ring on the front gears. So I tossed the front derailur.

Better solution is to switch to trigger shifters built into the brakes. Half twist throttles work best for me. They are not senstitive to the orientation they are mounted.
 
Several good ideas.

A similar idea I've had is to mount a thumb throttle on both sides and set them up so whichever is higher wins. That would also allow trading thumbs for a rest, as well as when shifting. And if one fails, the other can be used. If one fails at other than zero, just unplug it and continue.

Also, with a stuck throttle a kill switch and an ebrake switch seem suddenly very useful.
 
i use right hand thumb throttle mounted on the left.. works fine for me... i have one mounted on the vertical steering arm on a trike,and one mounted on the handle bar of an mtb... throttle came from ebikes.ca
 
Alan B said:
I have not taken one apart yet. Is it a simple angular move the magnet toward the analog hall detector as it rotates type of design, or is there more to it?
No, that's pretty much it. One I had from a ScootNGo had two magnets, I'm not sure why. One on each end of a ~240 degree arc, with the hall sensor dead set between them when at "off". About 120 degrees of rotation on that one, I think, but it came apart a long time ago, so I don't remember for sure.

Sounds like you have a good feature set. I would add small and stealthy to the thumb version, and both-handed versions, perhaps not with the same parts.
Easy enough to do, by using just a band to mount it (like a lot of thumbshifters do), instead of a full bar-wrapping circle of metal. Then the thumbshifter becomes not a rotating-about-the-bars type, but a perpendicular-to-the-bars type, just like a thumbshifter.

Both-handed versions should be easy. Just put two magnet slots on there, one at each end of the arc of rotation, and use whichever one is needed for that hand. Same with the hall slot. I think you'd need a different spring for each side, but maybe with the right hole positioning for the spring ends, the same one could be used for both. It'd just have the spring in compression for one hand, and expansion in the other. Install the thumb-press hardware whcihever direction faces your thumb on the hand you're using (or make it dual-sided so it won't matter).

If the thumb piece is rotatable (by installing wiht a screw from the bottom) then it also means you can position it at whatever angle best fits your thumb, too, based on teh bar shape and grip style.


Also, you should charge enough to make it worth making. Too many folks don't charge enough and it is not sustainable and the manufacturing ceases after a batch.
Yeah, I guess that's true. I still have no idea what these would cost to make, becuase it depends on the person CNCing them, mostly. My own time I can figure 30 minutes each at first, half that later, probably. Parts/materials, $10-$20, since I can buy existing crappy throttles for parts sources for the wiring, spring, magnet, and sensor likely cheaper than I can source those separately. ;) After all, the only big problem with the crappy throttles is the plastic bits themselves and the lack of QC at assembly.
 
Unless you are planning on mass producing them, it would be far easier to hand machine it instead.

instead of going starting from scratch, why not try using a real cable thumb throttle from a four-wheeler, and then use a nice high quality pot-box or a Hall-effect box depending on what your controller accepts for input and just running the cable to near your controller.

I know they are a bit bulky for a bicycle, but hey at least it wont break.

If you don't like the idea of an extra cable, try adapting the four-wheeler thumb throttle to your purposes rather than spending up to several thousand for a custom CNC'd throttle.

Shop-time is extrodinarily expensive if you can't get someone to do it for you for free. I got a quote for a project not too long ago It was going to be around 250 dollars just to use a water jet to cut out dozen simple shapes out of sheet metal.
 
amberwolf said:
Alan B said:
I have not taken one apart yet. Is it a simple angular move the magnet toward the analog hall detector as it rotates type of design, or is there more to it?
No, that's pretty much it. One I had from a ScootNGo had two magnets, I'm not sure why. One on each end of a ~240 degree arc, with the hall sensor dead set between them when at "off". About 120 degrees of rotation on that one, I think, but it came apart a long time ago, so I don't remember for sure.
...

I would guess that two magnets might be set up to somewhat "linearize" the field and perhaps stretch it over a longer distance. 120 degrees sounds like a longer throw than the ones I have.

What is optimal for the throw? Is that longer throw easier to use?

Interesting suggestion to use an ATV throttle. Could probably buy one of those. Not sure the handlebar size is right. I have a couple of ATVs. They are not the most comfortable thing to use, and they are pretty big as I recall.

One thought is to use a "ring" with four pushbuttons on it. Sort of like a cruise control. Throttle OFF, DOWN, UP, RESUME. Not sure I like that. Might be good in addition to the regular throttle.

One of the thumb throttles I have is very compact, and has no markings. It is hardly visible on the bike. The thumb lever is pretty small. I just worry that it would be easy to break, and have heard that water or breakage is common.

Finding shops to do CNC at reasonable rates is a chore, but they do exist. Part of the cost is how many setups in the lathe and mill, so the design can have big impacts on that.

One thing that would be interesting is to come up with a design that could easily be hand machined on the small lathe/mill setups that folks often have at home. Or perhaps even made from available pipe/tubing and more common tools. PVC is easy to work with for those with fewer tools.

Another possibility is to find some commercial products that are a good starting point and "improve" them. Come up with solutions to the problems they have, and make a recipe that others can follow.
 
I have been talking to Magura about this. We will see a hall throttle from them before too long. It would be easy enough to convert to a thumb throttle.
 
I am a rank amateur at ebikes and am new to Endless-sphere, but I would appreciate help in finding a good replacement for my Zap DX bike kit thumb throttle. The one that came with the kit (about 10 years ago) is almost beyond repair at this point. I have tried a basic twist throttle but have not been able to get it to work. The Zap is a 12-volt system, and the twist throttle is meant for a 24-volt setup. Can anyone help advise me either to adapt the twist throttle for the Zap or to locate a decent and affordable replacement for the original Zap thumb throttle? I appreciate your help.
 
Throttles seem to be of two types. I've only handled a few types myself at this point. These are variable resistor or Hall effect. Most throttles seem to operate on 5 volts. Throttles sometimes have indicators for voltage, but that functionality is usually separate from the throttle itself. The most common throttles seem to be the 5 volt hall effect type. If your throttle is of this type then most any hall throttle should work, once the wiring is worked out.

The controller generally regulates system voltage down to 5 volts and uses this for the throttle.

How many conductors does your cable have? Basic throttles generally have three, though there are variations. Extra conductors are needed for other features on the throttle like voltage indicators.

Perhaps someone familiar with the zap throttle specifically might be more helpful. Starting a separate thread entitled "need Zap throttle help" might attract more help than this thread.
 
Alan, many thanks for your reply. The existing throttle is a two-pole, three-wire variable speed type (that is, high, off, low; "normal" mode is off; the lever springs back to middle, or off, position when not being moved up or down by the rider). As noted on a page at electric-bikes.com, the wiring is as shown in the attached graphic. My question is, could I adapt a hall-effect throttle used for a 24-volt bike motor? Would the wiring connections (red, green, black) change in some way?
 

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old thor said:
Alan, many thanks for your reply. The existing throttle is a two-pole, three-wire variable speed type (that is, high, off, low; "normal" mode is off; the lever springs back to middle, or off, position when not being moved up or down by the rider). As noted on a page at electric-bikes.com, the wiring is as shown in the attached graphic. My question is, could I adapt a hall-effect throttle used for a 24-volt bike motor? Would the wiring connections (red, green, black) change in some way?

This is not very compatible with a hall effect throttle. They produce one voltage (at very low power) that varies with the position of the throttle from about a half a volt to somewhat over four volts.

This is not a throttle, really, it is an off, low, high switch using series/parallel wiring of two motor windings. Perhaps a spring loaded DPDT mini toggle switch and some relays should be used to do this. OR buy a brushed motor controller. I have not worked with those but would expect they would take a hall throttle input, and the output would be connected to the motor per the fast speed settings. The controller would provide variable speed from zero to fast without relays as are being done now. It would use pulse width modulation to accomplish this.

Perhaps someone on the forum here who has worked with the available brushed motor controllers could comment on that possibility and products that might be available (brushed controllers) that would work. A 12 volt brushed motor controller should not be expensive, and it would give you better control.
 
I have been talking to Magura about this. We will see a hall throttle from them before too long. It would be easy enough to convert to a thumb throttle.

This is great news. A bit bummed though because I just ordered a magura from you this weekend...

In any case, great news that we'll actually have a decent throttle made for us!
 
I expect it to take at least 6 to 12 months for magura to do anything about it. So far they are just pitching it to several manufacturers, and had not thought about oem market. I let them know that there is indeed a market for a quality hall throttle.
 
A San Diego company, Industrial Liquidators is still selling surplus parts from the defunct EV Warrior bike line. Can the throttles at the bottom of the EV Warrior page found as item 4 on the "things we sell" list be useful to anyone? Seems to me that the system was reasonably rugged for its time.

How about $24.99 for 10@ radio controlled anti theft devices or $49.95 for 50@ :lol:

Thumb throttles are 2 for $20 with an on-off switch.

http://www.industrialliquidators.com/
 
I've been thinking about this issue a bunch the past few days and I think I now have the ideal throttle pictured in my mind. It would be a full twist with the "bulge" on the right instead of the left. Since it will be a full twist, the grip will be integrated into the throttle and there will be a space for running the wire back towards the brake/shift levers. I think this set up would solve almost all issues with e-bike throttles and would allow the use of any brake/shift lever combination that you would normally use on a bicycle. Now I just need someone to build it. :(
 
Why not have "the bulge" inside the handlebar ?

Like many, I'm struggling to get the shimano shifter, hydraulic brake and throttle on my handlebar. I've not seen any pretty solution. I've cut off most of the plastic off my cheap hall effect throttle to make the shifter pass, but it's not very waterproof anymore :). I'm surprised no company has come up with a good solution.

So what I was thinking, was to insert a pot inside the handlebar, with a solid metal ring on either side to hold the axle, and a spring to make it auto-return. Then a grip could drive the axle (turning tightly around the handlebar). The problem is the implementation... for a start it is difficult to find a good quality miniature pot that has only 90deg rotation.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

Vishay does a very nice hall-effect throttle, but at 24mm its too big to fit in the handlebars... http://www.vishay.com/docs/57103/model981.pdf
 
nitters said:
So what I was thinking, was to insert a pot inside the handlebar, with a solid metal ring on either side to hold the axle, and a spring to make it auto-return. Then a grip could drive the axle (turning tightly around the handlebar). The problem is the implementation... for a start it is difficult to find a good quality miniature pot that has only 90deg rotation.

Has anyone tried anything like this?
Sort of similar, on DayGlo Avenger after the ScootNGo throttle disintegrated. :lol:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=231006#p231006
file.php

file.php

It was not a complete success, but it did work well enough for a while, IIRC until I took that whole system off the bike after a broken motor shaft.


With a fully-machined metal throttle, it wouldn't need a bulgy thing at the end. It could all be fit within the grip itself, so it's just a tube that can but right up against a gripshifter, for instance. Even a thumb throttle doesnt' have to be much more than a fairly thin ring with a thumb tab. Mostly depends on the spring type used and how thin that can be, or where it goes in the assembly.
 
nitters said:
Why not have "the bulge" inside the handlebar ?

Like many, I'm struggling to get the shimano shifter, hydraulic brake and throttle on my handlebar. I've not seen any pretty solution. I've cut off most of the plastic off my cheap hall effect throttle to make the shifter pass, but it's not very waterproof anymore :). I'm surprised no company has come up with a good solution.

So what I was thinking, was to insert a pot inside the handlebar, with a solid metal ring on either side to hold the axle, and a spring to make it auto-return. Then a grip could drive the axle (turning tightly around the handlebar). The problem is the implementation... for a start it is difficult to find a good quality miniature pot that has only 90deg rotation.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

Vishay does a very nice hall-effect throttle, but at 24mm its too big to fit in the handlebars... http://www.vishay.com/docs/57103/model981.pdf

The best solution I've seen so far is a Half Twist throttle on the Right Bar, and a Twist Shifter upside down on the Left Bar, and a rapid rise derailleur (cancelling out the upside down shifter so it operates as normal).

Obviously there is no front derailleur.
 
amberwolf said:
Sort of similar, on DayGlo Avenger

Exactly what I was thinking :D . But yes with a nice solid machined housing... That's where the problem lies...

Actually, it shouldn't be too difficult. I would need a metal cylinder that fits nicely around the shaft on the pot, and nicely inside the handlebar. Need to tap some thread in the cylinder to fix the pot housing to it. Add a spring that hooks into the cylinder on one side, and into the shaft on the other. Then somehow fix the cylinder in the handlebar (drill a hole in the handlebar, and use a small screw maybe). And then use a solid grip to turn the pot... (a bit like the grip on the magura throttle).

My problem is that I'm always full of ideas, but a little lacking in implementation :oops:

I'm going to try... ...but don't hold your breath !!! :)

@Mark; Yes I had seen that in one of the build threads (yours maybe?). I suppose if I remove the front derailer, I could also try to put the 8sp trigger shift on the left (assuming the indexing mechanism inside the shifters can be exchanged between left/right). - I still like the idea above though.

(edit: add a spring return)
 
Hello,

I am resurrecting this old thread. I am also in search of a high quality / well designed thumb throttle for my e-bicycle.

For the record, I have installed the 48V Magic Pie 3 kit on my bicycle (a Breezer Uptown 8 LS). The only issue I had so far was when the bike was exposed to heavy rain (which I try to avoid as much as I can), the motor was "stalling" for no reason, and after some time (in dry weather), it would work normally again. After some tests, I identified the thumb throttle as the problem: when the issue happened, I tried to unplug the throttle, and the motor was working well with the PAS (pedals sensor) only.

The throttle I have is the one provided by Golden Motor : http://www.goldenmotor.ca/product_images/a/751/THUMB_THROTTLE_2__27763_zoom.jpg
The build quality is very cheap and it does not seem to have any sealing (if there is one, it is obviously not efficient..)...

So my question is, does anyone know of another better quality 48V thumb throttle I could use instead of this piece of c***

I did some research on the web, it is flooded by this low quality throttle...
 
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