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Postby xyster » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:08 am

I saved a schematic from the old V by Chas S. for a series/parallel switch.
Perhaps we can construct a schematic-dedicated thread, and if the powers that be agree, they can stick-ify it to make circuit searching and reference easy.
Requests for schematics can also be posted here.

Fech-master has some good ones; the controller bypass and regen-relatad circuits are historically popular requests.
Attachments
series_parallel_schematic.jpg
series_parallel_schematic.jpg (30.94 KiB) Viewed 44422 times
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby fechter » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:53 am

It's been stick-ified.

Here's a schematic of how to run a 24v controller on 36v. The Vego controller is shown, but the same techinque works for many others, like the Voloci (36v to 48v mod).
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Vego 36 votlt mod.gif
Vego 36 votlt mod.gif (6.99 KiB) Viewed 44347 times
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Postby xyster » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:18 pm

Basic 36v controller bypass with 12v "turbo" boost.

(Schematic edited for readability.)
Attachments
bypass_circuit.jpg
bypass_circuit.jpg (102.53 KiB) Viewed 44324 times
Last edited by xyster on Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Leeps » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:06 am

Xyster i see a voltage boost, but everything is still going through the controller, i dont see any bypass.
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Postby xyster » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:28 am

Xyster i see a voltage boost, but everything is still going through the controller, i dont see any bypass.


I'll improve the schematic so the routes are easier to follow. B- is routed by the relay around the controller, directly to the battery.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Leeps » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:31 am

Actually on the second look your right, i just missed it
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Postby fechter » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:17 am

Keep in mind that with most controllers the B+ and M+ wires are connected straight through. The "controlling" happens on the negative leg.
Another nice feature is if the power for the relay coil comes from across the motor wires so you can't accidently go turbo when you're stopped.
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Postby Matt Gruber » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:46 am

fechter wrote: Another nice feature is if the power for the relay coil comes from across the motor wires so you can't accidently go turbo when you're stopped.

This must be bench tested and adjusted with a series resistor.
mech701 didn't, and when parking he touched the throttle and it ran into a wall, 1 welded relay, 2nd relay stopped it.
he had a 24v coil that triggers at 13v on 48v.
see http://community.webtv.net/MATTGRU/turbo
Last edited by Matt Gruber on Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
ASE CERTIFIED IN ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS 1984
2006- added fail-safe controller bypass circuit with power boost to Razor MX500 using 2 80amp relays.
Now testing JB Weld cell fuses. No more soldering to a bare cell for a repair. Connect it safely with JB Weld cured with slight clamping pressure for both a good connection and thermal fuse protection.
Why build a pack from scratch? I buy tool packs instead.
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Postby xyster » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:02 pm

Another nice feature is if the power for the relay coil comes from across the motor wires so you can't accidently go turbo when you're stopped.


True, but you'd also lose the benefit of being able to use the bypass to get home if the controller died.

What's the simplest way to retard the sudden jolt when the relay's engaged with the vehicle stopped?
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Matt Gruber » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:21 pm

xyster wrote: True, but you'd also lose the benefit of being able to use the bypass to get home if the controller died.


I haven't. I carry a jumper wire to turn on the relay. then i would hit the 500amp master switch to get home. it is large enough not to weld, and i can twist the key forcefully if it sticks.
ASE CERTIFIED IN ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS 1984
2006- added fail-safe controller bypass circuit with power boost to Razor MX500 using 2 80amp relays.
Now testing JB Weld cell fuses. No more soldering to a bare cell for a repair. Connect it safely with JB Weld cured with slight clamping pressure for both a good connection and thermal fuse protection.
Why build a pack from scratch? I buy tool packs instead.
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Postby fechter » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:22 pm

The old Zappy had a SCR in series with the coil that needed some back EMF from the motor to enable. You had to physically push the scooter up to a few mph before there was enough voltage to allow the relay to engage. This prevents relay activation when stopped.

I can't think of a way to "dampen" the startup jolt without having some resistance in series with the load. This would sort of defeat the turbo action.
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Postby fechter » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:33 pm

OK, back to schematics:

Here are some partial schematics for sections of the Crystallyte black box controller. I reverse engineered these, so there could be differences or mistakes.

For a discussion on the Crystallyte controller, see:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... sc&start=0
Attachments
Brushless Controller Output stage.jpg
Brushless Controller Output stage.jpg (27.99 KiB) Viewed 44274 times
Brushless Controller Current Limiter.jpg
Brushless Controller Current Limiter.jpg (41.32 KiB) Viewed 44320 times
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Postby fechter » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:35 pm

Now, if you want to have an adjustable current limit, this mod should make the limit adjustable from about 25% to 100% of the limit determined by the shunt.
Attachments
brushless_controller_adj_current_mod3.jpg
Updated / corrected 3/4/07
brushless_controller_adj_current_mod3.jpg (38.75 KiB) Viewed 44276 times
Last edited by fechter on Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Postby fechter » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:39 pm

Here's the schematic for the "current mode" throttle adapter.

For a discussion on this circuit, please go here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=78
Attachments
Current Mode Controller 2.jpg
Current Mode Controller 2.jpg (37.79 KiB) Viewed 44257 times
Last edited by fechter on Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Postby fechter » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:46 pm

This is an adjustable current limit add-on circuit. This should work with any controller that uses a hall throttle. It will not work with most Curtis controllers.
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Current Limiter.jpg
Current Limiter.jpg (40.4 KiB) Viewed 44218 times
Last edited by fechter on Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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72 Volt 20 AH To 48 Volt 30 AH Switching Circuit

Postby xyster » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:24 pm

I came up with this while pondering a NiMH pack before settling on lithium. It's assumed the relays have 24 volt coils. I'm pretty sure this works :-) But please check it to make sure!
Attachments
72_volt-48_volt_switching_circuit.gif
72_volt-48_volt_switching_circuit.gif (38.94 KiB) Viewed 27031 times
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby fechter » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:34 pm

Ouch! my brain hurts trying to follow that.
I see the idea, it does look like it would work, but...
when designing a battery switching setup, it's important to configure it so that any possible combinations of relay states won't result in a short circuit to the batteries. When relays switch, sometimes one is a bit faster than another one, so they might not be in the proper state all the time when switching. Relays can stick or fail to operate also.

I'll see if I can figure out a fail safe version of this. Sometimes it's not really possible without adding extra switching, which is also nice to avoid.
A combination of states that shorts the controller, but not the batteries should also be avoided since the capacitors discharging might weld the contacts.
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Postby xyster » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:41 pm

Ouch! my brain hurts trying to follow that.

Compared to like your current-control throttle, I'd think this circuit would be a piece of cake for you!

Would using FETs in lieu of relays avoid these problems?
Would FET switches be more synchronous?
Are FET switches less likely to fail to switch?
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby knightmb » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:48 pm

xyster wrote:
Ouch! my brain hurts trying to follow that.

Compared to like your current-control throttle, I'd think this circuit would be a piece of cake for you!

Would using FETs in lieu of relays avoid these problems?
Would FET switches be more synchronous?
Are FET switches less likely to fail to switch?


It makes my brain hurt too, LOL, we are spoiled by circuit design software where everything looks perfect :wink:

This may be a silly question, but when you say 24 volt coils, you aren't taking about coils that max at 24 volts? Otherwise, some of those will have in series are way over 24 volts.
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Postby xyster » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:53 pm

It makes my brain hurt too, LOL, we are spoiled by circuit design software where everything looks perfect


I should get myself some of that software. Know of any good programs for the mac?

This may be a silly question, but when you say 24 volt coils, you aren't taking about coils that max at 24 volts? Otherwise, some of those will have in series are way over 24 volts.


I meant SPDT relays that switch at ~24 volts like these:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/i ... ELAY_.html
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Matt Gruber » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:02 pm

36 to 72 is lots easier.
i'd use one 4PDT toggle switch $3.85.
it has center OFF for emergency use. that's it. one switch.

but that looks pretty xy :shock:
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Postby xyster » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:17 pm

36 to 72 is lots easier.


Yes, but that'd been done already. A schematic is on page one of this thread. Where's the challenge anyway? :-)

From my experience with the scooter, I knew I wanted to run FT with at least 48 volts, but the crystalyte controllers won't handle the double, 96 volts (with the batteries fully charged to over 100V that is). So with NiMH cells in subpacks of 10 or 20, that left 48/72 or 48/84 as the only options. I even bought four 80amp relays for this!

But strangely, I didn't even think of using a 4PDT switch like you just did. That'd work with this circuit, wouldn't it?
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Matt Gruber » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:31 pm

xy
if i wanted 48v and 72v i'd use 7 sla. and 2 switches. it is a good combo. Mine would leave the 7th sla without a buddy pair, however.
If your circuit works with relays, a 4pdt would eliminate the failure problem fechter mentioned. I wire 2P in parallel to double the amp capacity.
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Postby xyster » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:06 pm

OK. Second attempt at 72 Volt 20 AH To 48 Volt 30 AH Switching Circuit, this time with Matt's 4PDT switch instead of relays. Sorry about the excedrin headaches, guys, I don't yet have any schematic software :-)

Seems like it should also work with a 4PDT relay. But the only ones I can find so far have contacts rated for 25 amps or less, like these:

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch ... 38&Site=US

http://www.nteinc.com/relay_web/pdf/RLY16_17.pdf
Attachments
72_volt-48_volt_4PDT_circuit.gif
72_volt-48_volt_4PDT_circuit.gif (34.11 KiB) Viewed 26982 times
Last edited by xyster on Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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Postby Matt Gruber » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:29 pm

a good 4pdt switch is CAT# STS-71 allelectronics.com rated 15a, but 2p is 30a, and they underrate it.
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