BL @ 72 Volts Or 5 series . ???

Hello All,

Goals.

1. Have a ebike able to go 30mph Give or take a few mph is OK .


Option 1 Take the BL36 hub to 72 volts.. However, That will give me a much higher top speed than I really need. I want to reach 30 mph but not much more. Also, I dont know if will fry the hub or not. IT seems it is very similar to a 408.

Option 2 Keep things simple and just buy a 5303 or 02. I am pretty sure either hub would give me 30 mph on 700c and 36volts.

Other Factors

I like the idea of the simple 36 volt system. It does sound like many of you guys have perfected. SO it is not a deal breaker in anyway.

Currently , I have 36 volt 18 ah of duct tape lifepo4.

Mostly flat where I ride . Rider weight is 150 lb.

Thanks in advance for your guys input.

Arbiker501

I ran both the 5303 and 2 through Ebikes.ca's simulater. while they look like they could do 30mph+ the torque on both is low, Too low to make that kind of speed.

I'm 180 pounds, but I ride a light 63 pound bike, and I've found it takes around 15 pounds of torque to maintain top speed. At every voltage I've tried, the max speed of either motor I use seems to peak out at the point were the simulater shows the torque drops blow 15, or close to it.

I don't know if the BL36 can handle 72 volts. I imagine it probaly can, if you keep an eye on the currant, but I'm guessing.
Regardless of wether you try the BL36, or go to a bigger motor, I don't think you'll be able to hit 30mph at 36 volts. You need 800-1000 watts to do it, meaning your entire system, battery, controller, wires, conectors, and motor would have to have a loop resistance of less than .04 ohms at 36 volts. The only way to overcome that, is with higher voltage.

Drunk skunk.

Thanks for the INFO.. I think you also bring up a second key point.. That at 30 mph I will use up some serious Juice.. Sooo i might would need more ah anyway.. ..

IT is hard to figure out which way to go.. With most hobbies I end up with 2 or 3 times the stuff than i want as i go thru the learning curve....

Just curious, why are you saying that if you increase the volts you have to jump up to 72 volts from 36v? Is it just because you currently have two 36v packs? I'm just wondering why you wouldn't try 48v or even 60v if you think that 72v might be too much for your motor and give you too much speed. I'm new at this, so I'm trying to understand more.

Do you currently have a controller that will support 72v??

I dont have a controler that will handle any more than 48 right now .. Sooo there is some added cost to make the jump to light speed scotty.

a 408 with 72v 35a c-lyte controller would be perfect for what you would want to do.

i run around the place through some big hills and average 24mph. on the flat i'm doing 30-34mph though

it also depends on how many stops/ starts you have to do.

if you have to stop and start it takes more power to accelerate you up than it does to maintain ur speed. to give you an idea i average about 6-7ah for a 25k trip throuhg hills and thats being brutal on the throttle from stop. If i was more gentle down low but still do the high speed, i can get it under 5.5ah.

I have to agree with BigH

408 is a great little motor especially at 72v.

The 5303 is nice aswell but the weight of the bastard is a hindrance. And they tend to suck more power then a 408. but that said i love my 5304 even if it does make the back end weigh a ton.

actually fuse made me realise something else - don't go for a 5303, get a 5304 more torques and since you will have to get more batteries, you may as well go to 72v (its safer to connect batteries in series than parallel - i was told by my battery retailer its safer as there are less bms issues to deal with).

you could also run one of the new pumas at 72v - that would give you a LOT of speed and good torque! (teamhybrid.co.uk)

out of all of these i'd probably go the puma kit.(408 or 407 second, 5304 3rd).

i put the 5304 third only because u don't have hills that would use the extra torque provided by that motor.

Yeah X5 is a waste if you don't have big hills...and even if you did it would be better to go with the puma. ( I learnt that the hard way)
Puma or 4series it my recommendation...though word of warning..apparently the pumas have a habit of blowing crystalyte controllers at high voltage. but that may have been solved with the latest batch...I haven't followed the pumas in the last little while

Hey guys this is great advice..


I dont have my hands on a second 36 volt pack but am looking to buying a second DUCT tape LIFEPO4. 36 18 ah pack. My vendor told me the same thing stay away from paralle and go in a series is fine...

I think with 72 volts the smaller 4 series would give me the best of both worlds..Plus if i hated the motor i could try a new one with some loss on selling and buying but not as much as on a 5 series .. Or of course a good excuse to build a second e bike....

Right now i love my e bike I just want a little more speed to stay away from traffic on some of the more traffic streets...

I think the WE motor performes very close to a 408. At first i though i would like a 406 but the high end speed is way up there.
Now i think more and more about maybe a two speed motor .. If i buy a controler i think i would be smart to get one that will run two speeds... It would be nice to have a 409/ 406 combo..

dual speed motors are great. You can choose the type of motor you want to run for the conditions. I run a 408/4012 combo, and it gives me more flexibility than a standard motor would. Honestly,, there isn't much diffrence in torque between the two, but they do have different peak efficancy points. AT 72 volts, the 408 will do 35, while the 4012 does 25mph. At 35, my hard tail bike is almost uncontrollable. normal road bumps cause the back end to hop. But at 37 volts, I run it most as a 408.the efficancy is high, while the speed is around 18mph average.

Any controller can run a dual speed motor. the special controllers just have a 3 pole, double throw switch inside that swaps the output between them. any 3PDT switch would work to do the same thing. I'm running one of Ebikes.ca's 7240 controllers with the 4110 FETS. Justin didn't offer one for the dual speed, so for now, I just plug in the motor I want.

honestly i would just stick with a single version. If you don't have many hills there is definaly no point in going the duel.

I have to recommend the 408 its a good combo between speed and torque. While the 406 has a higher top speed Its much harder to get to that speed because it lacks the torque compared to the 408 and is therefore effected more by wind resistance and hills.

You said that you didn't want to go as fast as the 406... Remeber YOU CONTROL THE SPEED. that is why there is a varible trottle controller if you don't want to go extremely fast then you don't have to..but its there if you want or need it.
With My 5304 I usually only use half throttle, I find very few occasions when i need to go full throttle...but then again full throttle for me = 60+ Km\h

Whichever way you go, you might want to consider getting some big ballony-type tires, if you are going to be spending too much time over 30-35mph. To me, they seem to act like a full suspension, really smoothing out all the bumps, etc. I've had both my 5304-equipped bikes up over 40, routinely, and I couldn't handle doing that before, with regular tires. I'm using Schalbe "Fat Franks", but I think there are some others that will provide the same effect.

-- Gary

So where is the best place to get some cool fat tires?????

I got some Maxxis 26"x2.5 hookworms on the rear wheel when i installed my x5304 yesterday.

You can get them from your local bike shop (although they may need to order it if they don't have any in stock). Also recommend fitting thick / throne proof / downhill inner tubes. I got a Maxis 2.5" wide DH tube when i got the hookworm however if this pops... i'll be sticking in some dirtbike inner tubes (more thicker than the DH).

Also make sure that the wider tyres fit into your frame (I had to deflate my tyre pressure when I put it in the tyre as it was hitting the frame while i was installing it but fit perfectly (with around 8mm clearance minimum from tyre to frame) when it was properly installed / inflated!

The creme-colored Schwalbe "Fat Franks" came on my wife's Townie, but I was able to order a set of black ones here: http://www.schwalbetires.com/node/1330.

Guys those tires look very sweet.

Ok so it has worked out . I sold my old lifepo and working on buying a 48 volt duct tape pack.. Hopefully a 20 ah..

Also one of the cool members on here is selling me a used 5303 in 700.. It should be low on torque but it is pretty flat and i am 145 so it should be a nice set up..

Also , Everyone says the 5____ use much more juice. But is that part of the throttle . I mean if you dont push it to much would it not use as much juice..

But it also looks like it is much more effecient over a wider range of speed over my what i think is 408

it could be just a throttle thing. but unless you are a masochistic, DrainBrain watching, total eco-friendly geekazoid nerd - "Punching It" is just so much fun you just can't help yourself. At least i can't.

i don't necessarily want or need "More Power" but if it is available i will take advantage of it when appropriate.

rick

Yeah i think the same way you do..

If it cost a dime to recharge my pack .. I dont care if i use more of it.. As long as i have enough to get back home .. I am buying a 48 20ah lifepo and that should be what i hope enough to run around town up to 30 mph for 25 miles per day .. without recharging but at night..

If i went out in the am and ran harder i woudl just recharge.

Now I might find something else for a long trip. A more long range hub and build a long range bike.. But it would start off with a bent or low trike .. Something that would get me 100 miles with pedaling at 25 to 30 mph.. Now that will be a real e bike but will be a long way off...


I think i am going to love the 5303 at 48 volts i hope it goes around 30.. If you have one let me know what type of preformance you get out of yours.

Arbiker501 said:

So where is the best place to get some cool fat tires?????

Click to expand...

I'm running a compromise tire--Continental Travel Contacts (1.75 x 26"). They are slick in the middle and rated for 80 psi. I run them at 90 psi on smooth roads. I ordered them from UniversalCycles.com. They have "flat protection" belts, but I still get a lot of glass flats. In Portland, Oregon, ("The City That <hardly> Works") we have tons of bike lanes, but they never sweep them so they are good for emergency run-off room only. I'd get a flat plus per week, if I rode in them--even with frequent inspections to pick glass out of my tires. I find that big soft tires are actually more prone to flats than skinny road bike tires because they capture a lot of glass in the tread, which works into the tube, if not promptly removed. When I was a kid, I installed "tire scrapers" but I can't find them any longer. They make a bit of "whishing" noise, but knock the crap off your tires before it embeds. I might make a pair. I might also make some Kevlar tire inserts. The glass won't get past Kevlar that's impregnated with the right resin. I think many of the protective substrates manufactured into bike tires are simply not glued/held together sufficiently. Glass eventually works between the fibers, if the belt substrate isn't bound together.

Drunkskunk said:

dual speed motors are great. You can choose the type of motor you want to run for the conditions.

Click to expand...

Yeah--but I've been considering another approach--two battery packs/chargers (probably LiFePo4) with a series/parallel supply selector switch. With a big DPDT switch, I could configure my power for speed (series) or range (parallel). If I want to get fancy, I could probably control it with a relay (contactor) and a remote handlebar mounted control switch. I could also leave one pack home for lighter weight, when I didn't need the speed or the range. Two smaller packs can be mounted in two locations on the bike for improved balance and utility.

I'm happy with my Yesa "48V" / 20Ah but I'm already dreaming of two 48 x 10Ah, which would deliver close to 110V in series mode but I think the 4110's might handle it, from what I've read. (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=764&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

Or, if you don't need that much power, two packs in this form factor would sure be sweet:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2963&p=42118&hilit=Yesa#p42118

Another thing that Justin pointed out for me (and verified with the ebikes.ca simulator) is the X5 series hubs all perform pretty much the same, IF you adjust the voltage. For example, to make a 5304 go as fast as a 5303, increase the voltage. However, for any given load, power supply and mission, there ARE motor model choices to be made. I used The Gimp software to overlay simulator runs of the 5303, 5304, and 5305 for my setup. The '04 and '03 power and torque curves cross at about 28 mph. This implies that for loads resulting in speeds < 28 mph, the '04 will be faster. For loads resulting in speeds > 28 mph, the '03 will be faster. As it turns out, 28 mph is nearly level ground / zero wind for me. This mean that the '03 will be faster going downhill or with a tailwind and the '04 will be faster going uphill or with a headwind--all based on full throttle at my battery pack voltage, wheel size, etc.

Entertaining musings, I think!

-Cal

Drunkskunk said:

dual speed motors are great. You can choose the type of motor you want to run for the conditions.

Click to expand...

Yeah--but I've been considering another approach--two battery packs/chargers (probably LiFePo4) with a series/parallel supply selector switch. With a big DPDT switch, I could configure my power for speed (series) or range (parallel). If I want to get fancy, I could probably control it with a relay (contactor) and a remote handlebar mounted control switch. I could also leave one pack home for lighter weight, when I didn't need the speed or the range. Two smaller packs can be mounted in two locations on the bike for improved balance and utility.

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You might want to talk to Ken at Itselectric.com. He's in develpoment of a switch for doing just that. its a remote switch, so it could be toggled from the handlebars.
I'm running both dual voltage and a dualspeed motor, meaning I havea wide range of choices to pick for peak efficancy.