Installing 220V in the garage to charge FASTER

I am tired of waiting the charger to end the charge process at 1700W max power.. I WANT MORE !!!

The poor thing is that my actual garage is equiped of only ONE 15A breaker on 120V.. !yes... just one!! It supply all the fluo, computer adn other devices i teh garage so to charge my ebike i must shutdown everything else !!!

I have 5 Kilowatts total of industrial Meanwell power supply so.. i must make a move!!

I plan on adding an auxiliary electrical box in the garage so all the garage outlet will be supplyed thru it only.

I plan on adding one two poles 30A 220V breakerbreaker on the actual home electrical box ( one on each phase availlable) and than to start from them a 4 wire cable 6AWG to the garage electrical box.

I'll have:

-one single phase breaker of 120V 15A for the actual circuit,
-one more single phase breaker for the actual circuit for added 120V outlet close to the work bench,
-one single phase 220V 15A outlet for the charger
- and than one 220V 4 lead 2 phase standard plug

I know the total max power above is exceeding the 30A 220V breaker i'll install in the actual home electrical box but i will vener use all that power at the same time i the garage.

I have a good idea on "how to... and how it work" but my only experience is that i installed switch and outlets and few breakers.. but never a second electrical box..

Should i go with what it's called a sub panel ?


Any recommandations , or expertise from electrician ?

Thanks in advance

Doc

I want to see how this works out for you I have the same problem one 15amp 120 breaker for the garage.

hey doc,

you said you plan to run a subpanel to your garage from the main panel? and you are going to run 2 sets of 220v with 6ga wire to feed it? if so, 6ga wire can handle more than 30a. a 6ga wire will be able to handle a 50a breaker if im not mistaken. ive been running electric ranges recently and they use 6ga wire, and 50a breakers are used for them.

i think you might be able to get away with a double-pole breaker with 220v which will be a 6ga wire on the 50a breaker from the main panel feeding a subpanel in your garage. and have the breakers you need in the sub panel, like a double pole 30a breaker and a couple 15a breakers. unless your plan is to run the psu's separately from your extra circuits.

I found interesting advices here:

http://www.handymanclub.com/project...view/articleid/5050/how-to-install-a-subpanel

Doc

if you currently have a 12 AWG copper circuit running to the garage you can convert it from 120 to 240V at the junction box with the duplex outlets.

first isolate the circuit so you know which boxes are on that circuit. pull all the duplex outlets out of the wall first that will convert to 120V.

on the side of the duplex outlet, there is a tab that connects the black side outlets together running along the edge of the duplex outlet that connects them together. to use these duplex outlets as 120 V sub junctions, with a pair of needle nosed pliers, break the tab on the hot or black side so the two outlets are electrically separated from each other, but don't break the tab on the common or white side. attach the white wire to one and the black wire to the other outlet above it, on the hot side. connect the bare copper ground to the white side or common. use a short jumper under the second screw on the common or white side and jump to the ground screw with a short wire so you have a grounded outlet top and bottom.

go back to the service panel where you have the white and black wires for that circuit. since your ground is attached to the ground bar, that carries the ground to each of the duplex outlets that were converted to become a subjunction box (allowed under code). use the white and black on a new 240V 2 pole breaker, either 25 or 30A. this will give you up to 7.5kW of power, either 120 or 240 anywhere on the circuit with no rewiring of the house.

for 240V, instead of isolating the duplex outlet, just run the white to the common and the ground to the ground, and black to the hot or black side. so your regular duplex outlet is now 2 240V outlets. capable of handling 7.5 kW of charger. if you can loop the circuit so each end is connected to the same breaker, by finding the terminal (last) sub junction box in the circuit and running a new 12G wire connected to the current wire in the box, from that point back through the frame of the house to the service panel then since current is provided to each outlet from both ends, you can double the current and use a 50 or 60A breaker and carry up to 15kW on the combined cables with no heating or power loss. i have done this to carry power to my garage and also to my shed. new 6G cable is not needed.

Or... go big and run a 100 amp breaker to a sub panel with 3 gauge wire !!!!

I love my new garage power source !

DNMUM has a great idea, BUT, using a typical 120V outlet for 240V, can be a bad idea, IF you have someone "helping" you. Hope I didn't read his post wrong. They could easily plug a 120V machine into the outlet and toast it.

I would go with a typical 120-240 Breaker panel. Run the #6 wire from the house main and install single and double breakers in the sub-panel. Clothes dryer and Water heater breakers are joined, so, if one part trips, the other will also.

Buddy of mine had someone plug in his Battery Charger into a modded 240V line, just the other day.

I also have one of dnmun's ideas in MY shop. I have to change it over. I really do.

I'm probably just going to throw a 20A breaker on the garage line and call it a day. The PSU's would still be derated to 80% capacity at 120VAC, but at least is better than a pathetic 15A breaker. Standard romex can probably take 20A no problems, right?

I doubt my dad would be that happy about me running 240 to the garage so I can find new ways to burn it down.

Just cut 220v wires from electrical box and plug into your bike

Charge in under 1 minute lol

Steveo

Might want to throw a full wave or at least a diode on that line first, but the idea sounds solid.

Just cut the line before the meter to reduce the losses. Those pesky residential panels don't like a few thousand amps.

If you're going to spend the time to run wire, run big stuff, and do 220v 50amp breakers at the very least. I do 10kw charging everyday, and you can't go back to 5kw charging, it just feels too slow.

Also, if you ever want to have a large EV someday, like a car, you're going to need at least 10kw charging or it feels like trying to fill a bucket with an eye dropper.

PM me if you need some tech help. I am your certified Electrician (of course liscensed in the states not Canada).

I would put a 50a sub panel in, of course we need to know what you are starting with. I would suggest you call your local Ele contractor and have them look at your exisitng panel to make sure you can expand. Just because you have 2 spots left doest mean you current system can handle the extra load. Things to look at are Electric heat? Size and type of current panel, any large loads like a hot tub ect..

You can never have too much power!!
#6 4 wire H,H,N,G is good for 65 amps(75c rated wire) NEC 310,16. I think your wire will be 60c rated (type NM) so use 55 amps.

Use a breaker at your main panel that does not exceed your Sub panel bus rating or your conductor ratings and you will be safe.

Always remember that the breakers are there to protect the wire, not the appliance/motor etc.

Why dont you get a local electrician to look at your system and then give you a Itemised quote for what you need.
That should give you a good starting point.

I installed a 220v circuit in my basement for my table saw and a couple of other power tools. It was pretty straightforward - the most time consuming part was finding out exactly what was allowed as per my local codes.

I'm from the UK and household leccy is done a bit differently over there - eg Romex is not allowed here, and special sockets and plugs are definitely a good idea for 220v.

If you already have 220v circuits for your stove, drier, etc then take a look in your panel and you should be able to see how they are done. If you can't figure it out then get an electrician.

liveforphysics said:

If you're going to spend the time to run wire, run big stuff, and do 220v 50amp breakers at the very least. I do 10kw charging everyday, and you can't go back to 5kw charging, it just feels too slow.

Also, if you ever want to have a large EV someday, like a car, you're going to need at least 10kw charging or it feels like trying to fill a bucket with an eye dropper.

Click to expand...

What are you using to charge at 10 kW? Manzanita Micro PFC-50M?

voicecoils said:

liveforphysics said:

If you're going to spend the time to run wire, run big stuff, and do 220v 50amp breakers at the very least. I do 10kw charging everyday, and you can't go back to 5kw charging, it just feels too slow.

Also, if you ever want to have a large EV someday, like a car, you're going to need at least 10kw charging or it feels like trying to fill a bucket with an eye dropper.

Click to expand...

What are you using to charge at 10 kW? Manzanita Micro PFC-50M?

Click to expand...

Nope, I have a 180amp 0-55v sorensen power supply that sits in series with 4x of the 51.4v 57amp server supplies in parallel. I could actually charge at 18kw, but my damn breakers trip. lol

liveforphysics said:

voicecoils said:

liveforphysics said:

If you're going to spend the time to run wire, run big stuff, and do 220v 50amp breakers at the very least. I do 10kw charging everyday, and you can't go back to 5kw charging, it just feels too slow.

Also, if you ever want to have a large EV someday, like a car, you're going to need at least 10kw charging or it feels like trying to fill a bucket with an eye dropper.

Click to expand...

What are you using to charge at 10 kW? Manzanita Micro PFC-50M?

Click to expand...

Nope, I have a 180amp 0-55v sorensen power supply that sits in series with 4x of the 51.4v 57amp server supplies in parallel. I could actually charge at 18kw, but my damn breakers trip. lol

Click to expand...

Luke, I guess it's nanotech lipo right :wink:

So at what C rate are your charging these?

It's only 2C charging, the pack is very large.

As assumed, it turns out my Dad isnt into me running a big ol' 220 run into the garage. He assumes its going to result in me killing myself or burning the house down, which is more likely than it probably should be.

I'd like to run my Meanwell's at the rated power of 2KW, but the thing is just under 79% efficient at 115VAC. The only thing on the garage breaker is a single outlet and the door opener. I'm assuming it has 14/2 romex coming into it, but I can check when I replace the iffy GFCI in there. Think it can take a 20A breaker? It has a 15 in there that might be a bit soft after being tripped hundreds of times from the welder, compressor, lights...

Harold in CR said:

DNMUM has a great idea, BUT, using a typical 120V outlet for 240V, can be a bad idea, IF you have someone "helping" you. Hope I didn't read his post wrong. They could easily plug a 120V machine into the outlet and toast it.

I would go with a typical 120-240 Breaker panel. Run the #6 wire from the house main and install single and double breakers in the sub-panel. Clothes dryer and Water heater breakers are joined, so, if one part trips, the other will also.

Buddy of mine had someone plug in his Battery Charger into a modded 240V line, just the other day.

I also have one of dnmun's ideas in MY shop. I have to change it over. I really do.

Click to expand...

for the outlets where there is 240V on the leads, i use red fingernail polish to paint the outlet with 240V. i actually have some duplex outlets with 240V on the top and 120V on the bottom. works really well to balance the load if you have a lot of 120V appliances on the circuit too. just put the white lead on the top of the duplex outlet and the black lead on the bottom and then when you need to max it out, just keep track of how much load is on either the top or bottom. works easily.

liveforphysics said:

I could actually charge at 18kw, but my damn breakers trip. lol

Click to expand...

You mentioned that you 440V 3 phase connection... you should be able to pull 180 KW out of that... just barely enough to toast a marshmallow

ZOMGVTEK said:

As assumed, it turns out my Dad isnt into me running a big ol' 220 run into the garage. He assumes its going to result in me killing myself or burning the house down, which is more likely than it probably should be.

I'd like to run my Meanwell's at the rated power of 2KW, but the thing is just under 79% efficient at 115VAC. The only thing on the garage breaker is a single outlet and the door opener. I'm assuming it has 14/2 romex coming into it, but I can check when I replace the iffy GFCI in there. Think it can take a 20A breaker? It has a 15 in there that might be a bit soft after being tripped hundreds of times from the welder, compressor, lights...

Click to expand...

you can open up the junction box and pull the wires out and measure them, it will be obvious if they are 14. but if you can follow the circuit from the service panel to the garage and be certain you know where all the connections are, they you can convert it to 240V which would provide 7.5kW at 30+ amps. it is so easy, that's why people do it. i use the regular three pronged plug for my saws and stuff that i run on 240V. and now i have a 60' 12gauge extension cord so people could park and use my cable to connect up their plug in hybrid while they go to the barbeque and hang out at the sushi stand. that seems to be a reasonable projection of EV penetration over the next decade here.

dnmun said:

if you currently have a 12 AWG copper circuit running to the garage you can convert it from 120 to 240V at the junction box with the duplex outlets.

first isolate the circuit so you know which boxes are on that circuit. pull all the duplex outlets out of the wall first that will convert to 120V.

on the side of the duplex outlet, there is a tab that connects the black side outlets together running along the edge of the duplex outlet that connects them together. to use these duplex outlets as 120 V sub junctions, with a pair of needle nosed pliers, break the tab on the hot or black side so the two outlets are electrically separated from each other, but don't break the tab on the common or white side. attach the white wire to one and the black wire to the other outlet above it, on the hot side. connect the bare copper ground to the white side or common. use a short jumper under the second screw on the common or white side and jump to the ground screw with a short wire so you have a grounded outlet top and bottom.

Click to expand...

So essentially "neutral" and ground are wired together. I thought the point of having grounded outlets was that the ground wire shoudl go separately from the neutral, and they are only tied together at the service ground (which would be connected to a ground rod, or copper water piping.)

B.t.w. My kitchen is wired similar to how you describe, but using 4 wire conductors, 2 for the 2 phases, and separate neutral and ground.

dnmun said:

go back to the service panel where you have the white and black wires for that circuit. since your ground is attached to the ground bar, that carries the ground to each of the duplex outlets that were converted to become a subjunction box (allowed under code). use the white and black on a new 240V 2 pole breaker, either 25 or 30A. this will give you up to 7.5kW of power, either 120 or 240 anywhere on the circuit with no rewiring of the house.

for 240V, instead of isolating the duplex outlet, just run the white to the common and the ground to the ground, and black to the hot or black side. so your regular duplex outlet is now 2 240V outlets. capable of handling 7.5 kW of charger. if you can loop the circuit so each end is connected to the same breaker, by finding the terminal (last) sub junction box in the circuit and running a new 12G wire connected to the current wire in the box, from that point back through the frame of the house to the service panel then since current is provided to each outlet from both ends, you can double the current and use a 50 or 60A breaker and carry up to 15kW on the combined cables with no heating or power loss. i have done this to carry power to my garage and also to my shed. new 6G cable is not needed.

Click to expand...

There are plugs that I believe are to code for 220V install (in Canada) and quite similar in size to regular 110V. Just that the contacts are turned 90 degrees:

Another type has just one of the phase contacts turned. These are 15A, 220V so does about 3kW. My washing machine came with one of these plugs when new. I have also converted some European market kitchen appliances to these plugs. 3000W in the water kettle or microwave heats twice as quick as the 1500W max of north american appliances.

dnmun said:

ZOMGVTEK said:

As assumed, it turns out my Dad isnt into me running a big ol' 220 run into the garage. He assumes its going to result in me killing myself or burning the house down, which is more likely than it probably should be.

I'd like to run my Meanwell's at the rated power of 2KW, but the thing is just under 79% efficient at 115VAC. The only thing on the garage breaker is a single outlet and the door opener. I'm assuming it has 14/2 romex coming into it, but I can check when I replace the iffy GFCI in there. Think it can take a 20A breaker? It has a 15 in there that might be a bit soft after being tripped hundreds of times from the welder, compressor, lights...

Click to expand...

you can open up the junction box and pull the wires out and measure them, it will be obvious if they are 14. but if you can follow the circuit from the service panel to the garage and be certain you know where all the connections are, they you can convert it to 240V which would provide 7.5kW at 30+ amps. it is so easy, that's why people do it. i use the regular three pronged plug for my saws and stuff that i run on 240V. and now i have a 60' 12gauge extension cord so people could park and use my cable to connect up their plug in hybrid while they go to the barbeque and hang out at the sushi stand. that seems to be a reasonable projection of EV penetration over the next decade here.

Click to expand...

The only problem would be there would no longer be 110 in the garage. I doubt the garage door opener would like 220 very much...

Its surprisingly hard to find out the physical limits of 14/2 romex, not the rated limits. Who has some laying around they want to pass 25A into for a hour?

And yes, I believe the 220V plug in the US is simply a normal one with both prongs rotated. Theres one of those at work, and it has 220VAC written above it in yellow marker.
But hey, the Mythbusters ran 220 into a standard extension cord once, and they're on tv!