120% setting on sensorless controller

I got a Lyen sensorless to run the pie, it works fine apart from the 120% setting doesn't work. Is that because it's a sensorless controller ?

The controller is the EB312 and it is very smooth, and no more catapult of power on start, it's much more controlled and doesn't feel as on-off!

I was getting 35 mph, now I'm getting 29-30 max on 16S LiPo.


Mark

Hi Mark

Mine didnt work either, I assumed again due to being sensorless

Also found that massively increasing the amps didnt seem to have the same whoosh

But great as a back up controller though

Hi Ginge,

Yeah, I actually noticed that today, It doesn't seem to have the wallop it had with halls, so I must fix them properly this time.

As you said it is a great backup controller to have!

How's your pie and mac going ?

Hi both, serves you both right for trying to be clever by going sensorless. It seems that you pay a bit of price on the speed front. Scorpion, Ginge is meant to be building me a battery pack at present so i'm chasing him from forum to forum with gentle reminders

I cannot help with the 120% setting problem you have been having, but i would like to congratualte you on your lipo success. I spent yesterday afternoon reading your 14 page Lipo thread, and i learned a lot. I'm currently in the place you were on page one of the thread

I must get myself a Mac sometime in the near future. I currently have a Pie on one build and a GM mini motor on another, both running well here in S.Wales.

rgds
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

brumbrum said:

Hi both, serves you both right for trying to be clever by going sensorless. It seems that you pay a bit of price on the speed front. Scorpion, Ginge is meant to be building me a battery pack at present so i'm chasing him from forum to forum with gentle reminders

Click to expand...

Yes that plan did backfire didn't it ? But at least I'm moving. But it's no harm to have a sensorless controller on backup.

Is Ginge building you a lipo pack ?

brumbrum said:

I cannot help with the 120% setting problem you have been having, but i would like to congratualte you on your lipo success. I spent yesterday afternoon reading your 14 page Lipo thread, and i learned a lot. I'm currently in the place you were on page one of the thread

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm using LiPo for around 6 months or a little more now and no smoke or fire yet! I don't store it in the house!

One of my 4s packs is a bit short on capacity, I'm thinking of changing it as the extra capacity will be nice on a longer run.

You do really need to keep an eye on voltages and not allow them to go too low, sometimes I miss a bms but really 100-200 euros is a lot to spend on something that you can do yourself with a little extra effort.

I'm still getting the same capacity out of the pack so I should easily get 2 years out of it which isn't bad considering building a LiPo pack is the cheapest way to go, LiPo also takes up a lot less room than LiFeP04.

brumbrum said:

I must get myself a Mac sometime in the near future. I currently have a Pie on one build and a GM mini motor on another, both running well here in S.Wales.

Click to expand...

Yeah the mac is really an addictive motor, especially on 16S LiPo, it's got so much power all the way to the top, My clutch did break though, I don't know if the bmc v4 clutch will be much of a benefit if the keyway will be the next weakest link, I'm waiting for cell-man to get back to me which could take a while, he is due back tomorrow and I'm sure he will have tonnes of e-mails!

12S LiPo will still give you 25-28 mph and a 12S 10ah LiPo pack is really small, when you compare it to LiFePo4.

If you get a mac I recommend no more than 2500 watts on 48 volts, you will still get 28-30 mph easily with the controller set to 120% speed which cell-man supplies with all those settings programmed and you can get the switch from him too. The gear problem seems to be sorted now, so we will see what can be done about the clutch!

I had 0 issues with heat,but climbing steep hills full throttle will make it get very hot much quicker than a large direct drive motor. If you only travel on level ground with only a few small hills then I doubt you will have issues with heat.


Mark

Hi Mark
Ginge is building me a pack but i don't think he would trust me with the responsibility of lipos. He is currentiy rebuilding two 54v li-ion packs into one big 84v pack which i hope to run with my pie and my Lyens 12 fet controller. He's built a few packs for me and this one is intended to be the 'mad man' pack. I've just got myself a steel frame with horizontal dropouts so i can rebuild my pie bike to suit the voltage in store for it I rely on Ginge for all of my upgrades, we tend to meet up now n' then and swap notes, parts and catch up on latest purchases.

I currently charge my packs without a BMS and it has become second nature. I've learned how long charges take according to my watt meter readings when begining a charge and then just set a timer/alarm on my phone to suit. Kept in the garage of course,, but they not as volatile or so prone to easy overcharging catastrophes as lipoly. Undercharging is not really and issue for me, just get some more AH.

brumbrum said:

Hi Mark
Ginge is building me a pack but i don't think he would trust me with the responsibility of lipos. He is currentiy rebuilding two 54v li-ion packs into one big 84v pack which i hope to run with my pie and my Lyens 12 fet controller. He's built a few packs for me and this one is intended to be the 'mad man' pack. I've just got myself a steel frame with horizontal dropouts so i can rebuild my pie bike to suit the voltage in store for it I rely on Ginge for all of my upgrades, we tend to meet up now n' then and swap notes, parts and catch up on latest purchases.

I currently charge my packs without a BMS and it has become second nature. I've learned how long charges take according to my watt meter readings when begining a charge and then just set a timer/alarm on my phone to suit. Kept in the garage of course,, but they not as volatile or so prone to easy overcharging catastrophes as lipoly. Undercharging is not really and issue for me, just get some more AH.

Click to expand...

The Pie on 84 volts will be a rocket, plenty of torque! Should do 40+ mph on 84 volts.

Are you using sensors for your pie ? if so then I got 35 mph on 60 volts when my halls were good, so you should definitely get 40+ mph, especially with the 120% setting in the controller!

To be honest if you are not big into cycling like me, then there is not much advantage of the mac apart from it's small size. The Pie will take a lot more abuse and it takes a lot for it to get hot, it hardly even got warm at 35 mph or hill climbing. Just don't take it up 16% hills! That's how I burned my halls, but the motor survived!

hello brumbrum
my man, its proving busy down here, shall i build you quickly 2 packs seperate for the back, and we will work on the 1 pack solution for the frame in the new year ??...now that gary is not listening lol.....andy, you will just love the mac, seriously, its everything you want, but just bear in mind that once a year a good overhaul on new bearings etc....its amazing......please email as i wont be back here for a while, my new batch of homebrew is ready

Mark, always have a spare clutch n gears on hand ...45 dollars....mine has been fine 2000 miles now but my friends siezed after about 800 miles.....new 8T mac is rockin, but strangely using more Ah overall than my old 6T, but less heat..i do however love the mac once i upgraded the bearings to hope bearings ( mine were due a change anyway), it almost is silent

Last batch of heat melted the solder that holds the phase to the main input wires..

Andrew, very happy to discuss lip, anytime...im sure you will want when you get on my bike next time

Hi Ginge,

Yep, I should have got a spare clutch, but I suppose I was hearing so much about the gears that I never thought the clutch would have given up so soon but the gears are good now and not a problem. I know I was pushing a hell of a lot more power than I should have been through the poor mac (3500 watts) and never any heating issues!

The bmc V4 clutch is supposed to be a lot stronger so I might give it a try, I mean there is no point thinking I'm going to back off on the power because I'm not, it's just so powerful, it's addictive. Problem is the price. Other solution is buy 2 from cell-man, but if they are going to break again there is not much point! The mac clutch is around 25 USD+ shipping and the V4 is around a whopping 140 + shipping, If I thought the v4 clutch would last I would probably just get that!

How long did you get out of the bearings ginge ? were they very noisy ?

What clutch are you using and what power are you running now ?

The one way bearing went so I could probably weld it ? I would loose freewheel, but the clutch didn't separate. The keyway is also worn and I remember it popped out once, I'm just worried a new one won't fit so tight!

Im using cellmans original clutch

I think the key to keeping the clutches is to avoid "slamming starts" when the wheel is already turning in freewheel and you ramp the power, you can hear the clutch "clunk" as it engages, i decided that couldnt be good for it..

erm. cellman has put an additional shunt in my 12 fet ( dont know if its standard), so unsure of my standard power, but battery draw is peaking at 66 AMPS, and its a dang rocket

The bearings were ok, but as i was changing my stator from 6 to 8 amps, thought id change them anyway, and it seems almost silent now

BMC 4 clutch, nah i wont bother, ill stock up on cellmans...each time you change clutch you will get a new set of wheels, wheel bearings, be able to stock up on composite wheels, and have a dang good excuse to change all the bearings, clean and regrease all for under 50 dollars.....once, maybe twice a year ?

Hi Guige,

yeah I think you are right, I'll get 2 clutches off of cell-man.

The new EB312 controller is a lot easier on clutches. The thing is I never noticed any clutch clunking, and I cycled a hell of a lot so I shouldn't have been too hard on it to start with, but 3500 watts and 35-40 mph will do that to the clutch sooner or later I suppose, though I suppose it is a lot to do with luck, some die sooner than others.

My controller has 2 extra shunts, but cell-man told me the value to put into the cycle analyst, though I'm using the stand alone cycle analyst atm!

Yeah the mac sure is a rocket, it make the pie feel fairly dead. The pie is great up to 24 mph or so and it will lift the front wheel, but the mac's torque lasts all the way to 35-40 mph!

I don't think there is any need to get spare gears the grey ones look perfect, I don't think I'll have issues with them!

Gday everyone,

awesome thread, as I have just orderd my Mac 8T. Just wondering about what you guys said about the Mac's clutch and riding / take off techniques. This will be my first e-bike, was wondering from your experience, what is the best way to take off, so as to make the Mac's clutch last the longest? WOuld you always pedal first then slowly apply throttle, or takeoff with only throttle but gently applied? etc... I have never seen an e-bike in real life, let alone riden one.. So your advice from experience will go a long way towards me not having to learn some lessons the hard way..

I am also planning on limiting the current (or watts) just like your advice earlier in the thread.. I actually plan to be very conservative at the beginning.. but bought the 12 fet just in case i decide to gain courage down the track.. lol..I am such a pussy.. I heard that people limit the power via programming the controller, or / and using the features of the Cycle analyst.. Which way would you suggest for doing this limiting? I have bought the CA, so that option is open if it is what would work best...

I got so much to learn, and will start searching the forum next on what the best way to get a good life out of LifePo4 batteries.. ie.. Nicad was to discharge till nearly flat before recharge i think,, but newer technologiy batteries i think was a huge NO NO to fully discharge the battery.. With the cost of e-bike batteries, I sure want to get the most life out of mine..

Cheers,

Ed.

Hi Ed,

Yep you got it, pedal first and slowly ramp up the throttle, the trouble is you would do it for long!

The more power you got the more you want. 2kw is nice on the mac but it won't be very long until you crave to go faster and accelerate faster!

I think the mac clutch will last a long time if you keep to no more than 2kw, on 48-52 volts you will still do 31 max with the controller set to 120%. Cell-man can sell you the 3 way switch and he has the 120 setting already programmed, and he has it programmed for no more than 2100 watts for the 12fet controller so you don't need to limit anything with the cycle analyst, but the option is there to limit it further if for instance you want more range.

If you are not very comfortable about using LiPo batteries then LiFeP04 is the way to go, Ping makes good value packs, but you will need at least a 20ah to handle the acceleration, because Pings batteries are 1C they handle bursts of 2C max, but it will sag at 2C on the plus side of things, 20ah will give you a lot of range, the downside is it will weigh almost 10 kgs!

If that's too big and heavy then you will have to spend extra on an A123 pack, cell-man makes good quality packs. He makes 11.5ah packs that would be smaller and lighter but the major difference is that small pack will be able to run the mac without issue and should you want more power in the future it's rated for 10C so that means 11.5ah x 10C =115 amps you can pull from cell-man's pack, however he ships them with a 30amp or 80 amp bms, just tell him what you want! The ping 40amps max for the 20ah pack!

The batteries are expensive, so choose carefully, I can get 25 miles @20 mph form 8.5ah with gentle acceleration and a few short hills and NO peddling. With 1.6 slick tyres pumped to 90 psi!

What range do you want without peddling that is ?


Mark

Thanks heaps for the advice mate..

I ended up ordering Cell_man's triangle A123 battery.. so a 52V fitted with a 30A BMS.. I didnt know you could get them with the 80A BMS.. but the 30A is all i will need for my mac motor and my preferred batery for my needs i think.. also ordred that 3 way switch throttle.. so that should be awesome.. I didnt know about the 2100W limit set for the 12 fet. I am getting the 12 fet so that limit will be sweet too. I really cant wait.. . The Cycle Analyst should tell me what power i am using and will decide then whether to set other limits.. ..

As for the MAc clutch.. how does that actaully work.. as in, are we talking about a clutch like friction plates that rub against each other with more force engaging them as teh torque is applied? or is it just a spring loaded throw gear like a car starter motor on a car.. I have seen the photos of the macs internals.. but am not sure where the clutch actually is.. and how it works...

Cheers,

Ed.

There is a one way bearing, so when you apply power it engages the bearing and turns the wheel and when you release the throttle the bearing freewheels because it will only allow power to be transferred in one direction, that's my understanding of it anyway lol

cell-mans bms might allow more current for acceleration, his specs say protection rating 50-80 amps so that should allow for accelerating and hill climbing. If you are worried maybe e-mail him and ask him to send the 80 amp instead!

The mac will pull 40 amps with cell-mans controller settings, I forget what the full throttle amp draw is on 52 volts.

Anyway you will have a blast with the mac, and it's more efficient than direct drive which needs more power for the same output as the mac!