The cooked MAC repair thread!

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The cooked MAC repair thread!

Postby Spicerack » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:52 pm

Just wondering what the best checks are for a broken MAC. It was working perfectly at first, and on the first proper run today, after 20 minutes it started stalling on take off, which could be rectified by closing the throttle then opening it again slowly. This got steadily worse until the motor stopped working altogether.

It was running at 60V with a max amp on takeoff of 55 initially but the stalling was happening at high 30's.

*****UPDATE*** Note that this is well above the recommended volts/amps for a MAC! Paul did tell me but some of us need to learn the hard way... The overall results were that the halls were cooked, the windings are cooked but still ok[Further edit: windings are knackered- it still works but gets very hot. New stator will be going in], wiring inside the motor was cooked/melted and the controller got fried after a hall line melted into a phase wire and got 50-60 volts through it (not good for a 5V hall sensing circuit). The good news was that the new grey gears and clutch assembly are all good with the gears able to handle over 3KW. Once repaired, and with a new controller (mine was the older style EB212 which are known to be alot harsher on the motors), I will limit amps and I have no doubt it will be reliable. ***** I've also amended the thread title to more accurately reflect the scenario... :oops:

The wires aren't melted, as far as I can see at this stage, the motor itself wasn't that hot and the controller was ok as well.

It's a 320 wind MAC rated for 48V with a 12 FET controller all supplied by Paul.

The motor is now completely cold and still no action whatsoever.

What sort of tests should I be looking at? Continuity on phases, hall sensors, controller.........

The resting draw on the system has increased from .03A to .05A now- not sure what this indicates.

:(
Last edited by Spicerack on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby wineboyrider » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:58 pm

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ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby StudEbiker » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:24 pm

Check and recheck all connections carefully. I would pay close attention to the phase wire connectors. 55 amps is a lot of potential heat there.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby amberwolf » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:11 pm

My first guess is a phase connection, but with the higher idle draw, perhaps something in the controller or halls has failed and created a new current path?

Do the halls toggle in voltage if you rotate the motor by hand, with the controller power still on?
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 am

Yes, the phase connections are all perfect- I replaced the little bullets with some decent ones so I've probably moved the current heat further down the chain- I'm guessing something inside the hub.

StudEbiker- when you say check the voltage toggle on the halls- do you just measure across each hall or each wire relative to earth?
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby neptronix » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:23 am

60v x 55a = 3300w. that's definitely enough power to get the clutch or gears into trouble, especially if you ordered the motor before the gray gears were installed.

But a dead stall, with no grinding or abnormal noises... that would rule out any transmission issues.
I would then point to the controller.

So tell me, did you get the 3xxx FETs, or the 4xxx FETs on that controller from him?
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:28 am

Yes, I upgraded to the better gears, but it's definitely electrical as it's totally silent and dead.

It's the 4110 FETS in my controller (took a peek when I first got it to confirm)
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby neptronix » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:48 am

My money's on the wires between the motor and hub then...

I had a hall sensor wire ( thin ~30 ga wire ) come unplugged on me with a cell_man kit in very recent time.
That's where i'd look next.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby dogman dan » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:55 am

Amazing how fast a motor can heat up at that power level eh? So fast that on a gearmotor, the covers may stay cold.

If it's not something obvious, like a loose connection or a wire rubbed in half somewhere, my guess is you cooked off a defective hall sensor.

Bet you wish you had a motor controller tester now eh? Anybody playing in the big leagues needs one. It's entirely possible your controller just died on the first power up. Got any others you could test the motor with.

Have fun melting er down when you do get it running, you will. But it's fun to melt motors. :twisted:
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:53 am

Fun melting a motor?........haven't quite seen the funny side. I'm sure I will once I've fixed it or replaced it with something a bit more robust at these voltages.

Yes, a controller tester would be good.

Nothing against Paul (Cellman) by the way- he sold me a motor rated at 48V and I'm the one who overvolted it. The trouble is that you get the need for speed-volts=amps etc and before you know it you have a trail of discarded and burnt out motors and a lust for something like Luke's (LFP). 10KW Golden Motor....hmmm...
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby stripedtuna » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:04 am

Is this the controller tester he needs, or is there a particular brand recommended.. This one on ebay is only $25 with free shipping..

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Portable ... 3a6c8851b4



I also noticed the Electric Bike Controller/Motor/Throttle Tester $29 on Lyen's page

http://lyen.com/

Lastly, I would also ask Cell_man.. He would know which tester to use i reckon, and from what i have read, would also offer advice on how to help fault find.. Thats the main reason i went with the Mac, as the good after sales support is evident throughout this forum..

Hope that helps,

Good luck with getting it all running again mate..

Cheers,

Ed.


p.s. i have never used one of these testers yet..
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby dnmun » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:38 pm

should be fairly easy to check continuity on the phase wires. and check to see if they are grounded to the hub.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:55 pm

Phases appear to be good?

Isolated from casing and 0.5 ohms between all the phases.
9.9Kohms between phases outputs from controller to battery neg input to controller.

That would indicate phases on motor and fets in controller are ok?

Need to test switching of the halls next- five wires, three halls- hints? Yes it would be much easier to plug into a tester but can't spend time away from home playing with ebike instead of spending time with kids!
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:23 am

Paul (Cellman) is helping out as well (cos he's that kinda guy!) and I've now tested the halls.

None are switching. One stays a steady 5.0V, another is fluctuating 4.2-4.3V and the other is a steady 4.9V.

This is all with the battery hooked up to controller, no throttle and motor being moved backwards slowly (to engage clutch for the geared motor).

Is this indicative of a dead FET?

Phases all look good but the same can't be said for the halls circuit. Now to try and suss out whether it's in the controller or motor. I'm thinking controller. I have an offer to test it with a tester so will probably get onto that as soon as this Christmas family celebrations thing is over....
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:19 am

Here's some pics of the motor:

Image

Image

Image

Looks a little toasted to me.

Can I confirm that the phases are ok? All have continuity between each other at .4ohms or so, but no continuity to the rest of the motor (axle, casing etc).

The halls- I hooked them up to an independant 12V source and one give a steady 12V, the other two give a slightly fluctuating 6.something volts. This is turning the motor itself quite slowly. In my mind they are toasted- am I right?

If I have to replace them, it's difficult to find SS41 Honeywells here- how about clones such as http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-pcs-A3144-A3144E-OH3144E-Hall-Effect-Sensor-New-/270744612314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f09a2edda?
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby stripedtuna » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:25 am

Are these the ones you want.. ?? As in the actual Honeywell ones..

I think these are in Western Australia..

http://www.x-on.com.au/details-new.asp?i=280212&t=3


X-On Perth (Head Office)

1161 Albany Hwy
Bentley WA 6102
Tel: +61 8 9358 9358
Email: www@x-on.com.au

I also read this on their FAQ:

Can I visit your premises? Answer:Yes you can, but stress that X-On is not a retail/shop business, as such our goods are not on display and access to the secured warehouse is restricted. X-On’s focus and specialization is in the wholesale supply of electronic parts to industrial users.
Question: I am not a company, rather an individual retail customer who needs a part you sell. Can I buy it from you? Answer:Yes you can simply place your order on line and your goods will be sent to you. Unfortunately, you can not come in to browse our goods, other than on the internet, as we are not a retail shop and access to the warehouse is restricted. Picking up your parts can be done, but please contact us first.
Question: If i pick up my goods, will I still get charged a handling fee? Answer:Yes, if your order is under $200 (ex GST). You will still get charged a packaging & handling fee as this covers all handling expenses not just freight.


Hope that helps mate..

Cheers,

Ed.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby AussieJester » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:53 am

Offer still there to duck up and use the tester unit, its the one Lyen sells...

KiM
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Icewrench » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:20 am

With 5 volts to the halls they usually switch from less than 1 volt to a bit over 4 volts.
Fewer amps will make less heat and extend the life of your motor.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Philistine » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:25 am

When you test the halls, is the constant 5V one (which is the dodgy hall), does it happen to be the green one?

I ask because looking at your PCB board there, the green wire looks (from the photo) like it might (possibly) have a dodgy connection to the board. This is what happened to me with my BMC (almost identical motor). I presumed the hall was roasted, but what actually happened was that where the wire is soldered to the board, had become a cold solder, and after adding a tiny bit of solder to remake the connection, it was right as rain.

Just throwing that out there as a possibility. Cheers, Phil.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Spicerack » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:19 am

Not sure Phil, I tested so many times in different combinations.....

I have also disovered that one of the hall sensing lines has a direct short to a phase wire... I'm guessing that's not so good. Re-wire here I come.

Once I feel strong enough I'll have another look and probably nick up to Kim's to have a go on his tester- Kim, I'll pm you tomorrow.

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys- and I'll get in touch with that lot in Bentley for the halls, although it looks like the lead time might be longer than I want to wait.
Norco Shore2
Was Cellman MAC rear oil cooled then 8x8 9C vented and temp probed now 9x7 9C vented and temp probed!
12 FET controller
62V 18650 home made battery pack
50 km/h
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32769
MAC Repair thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34806
Oil cooling the MAC hubbie http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37972
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Philistine » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:30 am

Definately take advantage of Kim's offer re the tester, it is an invaluable as a tool. Will save you so much pain. I use mine constantly for halls testing (as opposed to voltage testing the lines).

If you want a three day option on your halls, Little Bird Electronics aren't bad, they have generic shitty halls, which I have succesfully used (I think they are based in Melbourne - so maybe longer for you, but they shipped a bunch of halls to me in about three days, and have used those halls successfully).

Best of luck mate.

EDIT: Just to be clear, when I had the problem, the Ebike Tester showed it as a blown hall (just like your multimeter is showing), but it was the solder to the board, not the hall itself. I am just saying before ripping out and replacing the hall, make sure the solder to the PCB is good, and no hall wires are damaged.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby sico » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:42 am

Hi Andy,

as far as I know and based on this fact sheet http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=3108&la_id=1&pr_id=36147&utm_source=supplyFrame&utm_medium=SEP&partnerName=DSA the maximum output voltage of your halls should be 0.4v, (regardless of input voltage, I believe) so all the ones showing above that are likely shot, I suppose due to overheating.

The recomended halls for installing on RC outrunners are the SS411A, which are available from rs online, next day delivery $20 for 6. My understanding is that these will also work as a replacement for your halls. It would be good if an expert could chime in and confirm though. I have a big outrunner working (sort of) with a cellman 9 fet and ss441a sensors. I already know the cellman 9 fet works on your exact motor with its original halls, so that says something.

Good luck with your repair work, its not rocket science but you may have to try a few things :)

Cheers,

Simon.
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby AussieJester » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:41 am

I have spare hall sensors also, dont want money
For them just replaced when ones you order
Come in, if it saves you waiting.

I thought I would be home all week but my new "lady friend"
Has invited me down to her holiday shack in Mandurah,
till after new years, i'll be leaving Thursday, so
Would need to organise things prior to this i'm sorry.

KiM
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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby o00scorpion00o » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:41 pm

I you have to order spares from Cell-man then I strongly suggest getting a spare clutch and keyway. I killed mine at 60 volts and 70 phase 50 battery!

It sure is additive though, it's a shame you can't get a dd motor with mac power, with the same wattage!
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

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Re: Broken MAC - advice?

Postby Philistine » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:46 pm

I thought I would be home all week but my new "lady friend"
Has invited me down to her holiday shack in Mandurah,

KiM


**Cue funky bass guitar music** Wow chicka wow wow.... Way to go Kim...a holiday house? Our Kim will be a kept man....
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