Phase current VS Battery current...
Phase current VS Battery current...
Good evening guys, I have a doubt that I could never quite understand the difference between the phase current and the battery. For example, I usually set up when the battery 100A, on my lyen
, Set the current phase to 260A (2.6 X). Now I have a 200A Kelly (phase), but why if i have max output of Phase 200A, 200A i can read on AC, battery side? I think I understood that the phase current is always larger than that of the battery, right? Someone I can 'explain the difference, or trackback some discussion? I could not find a discussion about it.
Thanks to all
, Set the current phase to 260A (2.6 X). Now I have a 200A Kelly (phase), but why if i have max output of Phase 200A, 200A i can read on AC, battery side? I think I understood that the phase current is always larger than that of the battery, right? Someone I can 'explain the difference, or trackback some discussion? I could not find a discussion about it.
Thanks to all
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
I_bat = y * I_phase
I_bat = DC battery current
I_phase = amplitude of sinusoidal current in 1 phase
x = amplitude of sine wave in PWM with 1 being 100% fill and > 1 a clipped sine wave
then, for x in 0 to 2
y = 0.012 + 0.495*x + 0.825 * x^2  0.774 * x^3 + 0.175 * x^4
capisci ?
boewhahahaha
The above equation is actually serious and is what i use to derive battery current from measured phase currents in
my controller build.
Assuming a simple china controller, let's say you draw 50 amps phase current and you have a PWM of 20%.
This means that 20% of the time the current is drawn from the battery via the high side FET and 80% of the time
the current runs around in circles via the motor inductance and the lowside FET. So the current you see in the
battery wire is 50Amps during 20% of the time and 0Amps during 80% of the time. So the average current is 10 Amps
(and you need big capacitors to deal with this spiky current).
I_bat = DC battery current
I_phase = amplitude of sinusoidal current in 1 phase
x = amplitude of sine wave in PWM with 1 being 100% fill and > 1 a clipped sine wave
then, for x in 0 to 2
y = 0.012 + 0.495*x + 0.825 * x^2  0.774 * x^3 + 0.175 * x^4
capisci ?
boewhahahaha
The above equation is actually serious and is what i use to derive battery current from measured phase currents in
my controller build.
Assuming a simple china controller, let's say you draw 50 amps phase current and you have a PWM of 20%.
This means that 20% of the time the current is drawn from the battery via the high side FET and 80% of the time
the current runs around in circles via the motor inductance and the lowside FET. So the current you see in the
battery wire is 50Amps during 20% of the time and 0Amps during 80% of the time. So the average current is 10 Amps
(and you need big capacitors to deal with this spiky current).
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Thanks for answer , now i can understand better...
But for example, now i have a 200A phase Kelly, i try to set max motor current at 100%, battery at 20%, i see this:
Torque is good at start, and max battery output i read on CA is 34A....the motor current is 34*2=70A phase?
If i set battery current to 100%, and phase current to 20% i see this:
Torque is toooooo weak, no torque, and battery output is 16A....
Now, when i set kelly 200A at motor 100% and battery 100%, i read on the CA 211A peak, 211 battery side=422 motor current???
How is possyble to have 422A motor if the controller is max 200A phase?
But for example, now i have a 200A phase Kelly, i try to set max motor current at 100%, battery at 20%, i see this:
Torque is good at start, and max battery output i read on CA is 34A....the motor current is 34*2=70A phase?
If i set battery current to 100%, and phase current to 20% i see this:
Torque is toooooo weak, no torque, and battery output is 16A....
Now, when i set kelly 200A at motor 100% and battery 100%, i read on the CA 211A peak, 211 battery side=422 motor current???
How is possyble to have 422A motor if the controller is max 200A phase?
 Doctorbass 100 GW
 Posts: 7440
 Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
 Location: Quebec, Canada East
 Contact:
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Let's wake up this thread again!
A little discover with many test on a dyno:
Here is some conclusion from the graph i got:
About torque:
With WOT here is what happened:
If Battery and Phase current is identical the torque should be constant for all the speed (the torque curve will be flat and no slope ( horizontal))
If Phase current is 2x Battery current the torque should peak and drop as the speed increase (the torque curve will be negative slope)
By deduction , If Phase current is half the Battery current the torque should increase as the speed increase and peak at the end (the torque curve will be positive slope) ? (edited Jan 20 2015)
Doc
A little discover with many test on a dyno:
Here is some conclusion from the graph i got:
About torque:
With WOT here is what happened:
If Battery and Phase current is identical the torque should be constant for all the speed (the torque curve will be flat and no slope ( horizontal))
If Phase current is 2x Battery current the torque should peak and drop as the speed increase (the torque curve will be negative slope)
By deduction , If Phase current is half the Battery current the torque should increase as the speed increase and peak at the end (the torque curve will be positive slope) ? (edited Jan 20 2015)
Doc
Last edited by Doctorbass on Jan 20 2015 9:14am, edited 1 time in total.
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http://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBEhttps://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Hi Doc,
Another topic that is of interest to me A while ago I attempted to show the relationship for sinewave 3 phase from battery. Here it is:
So I don't think it is possible to have phase current = half of battery current as in your third scenario.
But I am here to learn, so if you did see that, I'd like to know more about the experiment.
Regards,
major
Another topic that is of interest to me A while ago I attempted to show the relationship for sinewave 3 phase from battery. Here it is:
P = √3 * U * Irms * cosΘ
That is power in a 3phase sinusoidal system. P in Watts, U is line to line RMS Voltage, Irms is RMS phase current and cosΘ is power factor.
Of course the battery power is Vb * Ib.
So, Vb * Ib = √3 * U * Irms * cosΘ
Or, Ib = √3 * (U/Vb) * Irms * cosΘ
With an inverter synthesized sinewave, the peak voltage cannot be greater than Vb, and the maximum RMS value of U = Vb/√2. Substitute that into the equation:
Ib = √3 * ((Vb/√2)/Vb) * Irms * cosΘ
Or, Ib = (√3/√2) * Irms * cosΘ = 1.24 * Irms * cosΘ
So it would appear that battery current can exceed RMS phase current at full voltage to the motor and when the power factor is better than 0.81. Of course this assumes no inverter losses for simplicity sake.
So I don't think it is possible to have phase current = half of battery current as in your third scenario.
But I am here to learn, so if you did see that, I'd like to know more about the experiment.
Regards,
major
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Only if the controller will allow it.. So im assuming the kelly has a max phase current setting (limit) of 200A and this also happens to be the max setting for battery current.esoria wrote:I think I understood that the phase current is always larger than that of the battery, right?
the battery current will hit the 100% (200A) in the right circumstances ( maybe not in this extreme case of phase 20% and battery 100%) , its just that due to the very low phase current setting ( limiting ) its also holding back the battery current as the controller will not have the torque to get you up to your maximum speed.esoria wrote:If i set battery current to 100%, and phase current to 20% i see this:
Torque is toooooo weak, no torque, and battery output is 16A....
 smeagol222 100 W
 Posts: 172
 Joined: Dec 17 2015 7:36am
 Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Is there a simpler explanation to this? I'm new to this and cannot understand those complex formulas. I thought battery current is about half phase current? If its not exactly half, when what is the precise reduction?
I have this kelly http://www.qsmotor.com/product/4kw45 ... rkeb72601/
it says
•Peak Phase Current, 10 seconds: 280A. > battery peak current 140a?
•Continuous Phase Current Limit: 110A. > battery cont. current 55a?
If my battery is 72v with discharge BMS 60a cont. / 120a peak
my motor is QS 10inch v3 4000w rated / 7000w peak (61a cont. 90a peak  surely this is 'battery current')
https://goo.gl/wC3NmK
72v x 97.22a = 6999.84w > set kelly to 69.44% for peak current? (69.44% of 140a[batt current] is 97.21amps)?
I have this kelly http://www.qsmotor.com/product/4kw45 ... rkeb72601/
it says
•Peak Phase Current, 10 seconds: 280A. > battery peak current 140a?
•Continuous Phase Current Limit: 110A. > battery cont. current 55a?
If my battery is 72v with discharge BMS 60a cont. / 120a peak
my motor is QS 10inch v3 4000w rated / 7000w peak (61a cont. 90a peak  surely this is 'battery current')
https://goo.gl/wC3NmK
72v x 97.22a = 6999.84w > set kelly to 69.44% for peak current? (69.44% of 140a[batt current] is 97.21amps)?
First project small Escooter upgrade 3kw 48v 45a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
The term battery current can refer to several different things:
Actual battery current  the current you will see in an ampermeter connected to the battery at a given moment when riding.
Rated peak battery current  the maximal current the manufacturer claims that will not instantly fry the hardware.
Rated continuous battery current  the maximal current the manufacturer claims that will not fry the hardware when applied for an extended period.
Battery current limit  the maximal current the controller is allowed to draw from the battery.
The same terms apply for phase current (simply replace "battery" with "motor").
The actual battery current and actual phase current are constantly changing according to riding conditions.
The relationship between actual battery current and actual phase current is not fixed, it is also constantly changing according to riding conditions.
A simplified explanation for the relationship is: Actual battery current = actual phase current X %PWM .
The PWM is effected by motor speed, throttle position and load on the motor.
When at low speeds/high loads/a lot of throttle, the phase current will be much higher than the battery current and when cruising at high speed they will be very close.
If either battery or phase currents exceeds the maximum set in the controller it will reduce current draw accordingly.
For example:
Suppose the controller is set to limit the phase current to to 50 Amps and the battery current to 25 Amps.
If you are running at 25% PWM and the motor is drawing 40 Amps, the actual battery current will be 40 X 25%=10 Amps. No limiting is in effect.
Then a you start climbing a hill. Still running at 25% PWM, the motor now needs to draw 60 Amps. The phase current will be limited 50 amps and the battery current will be 50 X 25% =12.5 Amps.
After the hill you ride at high speed, say %90 PWM. The motor needs 45 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 45 X %90 = 40.5 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 25 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 28 Amps (25 X %90 = 28).
I hope this helps to clarify things.
Avner.
Actual battery current  the current you will see in an ampermeter connected to the battery at a given moment when riding.
Rated peak battery current  the maximal current the manufacturer claims that will not instantly fry the hardware.
Rated continuous battery current  the maximal current the manufacturer claims that will not fry the hardware when applied for an extended period.
Battery current limit  the maximal current the controller is allowed to draw from the battery.
The same terms apply for phase current (simply replace "battery" with "motor").
The actual battery current and actual phase current are constantly changing according to riding conditions.
The relationship between actual battery current and actual phase current is not fixed, it is also constantly changing according to riding conditions.
A simplified explanation for the relationship is: Actual battery current = actual phase current X %PWM .
The PWM is effected by motor speed, throttle position and load on the motor.
When at low speeds/high loads/a lot of throttle, the phase current will be much higher than the battery current and when cruising at high speed they will be very close.
If either battery or phase currents exceeds the maximum set in the controller it will reduce current draw accordingly.
For example:
Suppose the controller is set to limit the phase current to to 50 Amps and the battery current to 25 Amps.
If you are running at 25% PWM and the motor is drawing 40 Amps, the actual battery current will be 40 X 25%=10 Amps. No limiting is in effect.
Then a you start climbing a hill. Still running at 25% PWM, the motor now needs to draw 60 Amps. The phase current will be limited 50 amps and the battery current will be 50 X 25% =12.5 Amps.
After the hill you ride at high speed, say %90 PWM. The motor needs 45 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 45 X %90 = 40.5 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 25 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 28 Amps (25 X %90 = 28).
I hope this helps to clarify things.
Avner.
Last edited by ferret on Nov 29 2016 3:18am, edited 1 time in total.
 smeagol222 100 W
 Posts: 172
 Joined: Dec 17 2015 7:36am
 Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
I understand that using the throttle on flat vs downhill vs uphill is going to draw different amounts of current from the battery/controller/wheel
But what is PWM? Are you able to modify the example to use the numbers for my hardware so I can better understand? (above post)
But what is PWM? Are you able to modify the example to use the numbers for my hardware so I can better understand? (above post)
First project small Escooter upgrade 3kw 48v 45a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) is the way the controller sends electricity from the battery to the motor. For example, when the controller is running %50 PWM, the battery is connected to the motor %50 of the time. This is roughly equivalent to giving the motor %50 of the voltage for %100 of the time, which will make the bike run at %50 max speed (assuming negligible aerodynamic resistance ).
"Your" example:
Controller Continuous Phase Current Limit=110A
Controller Peak Phase Current limit=280A
BMS Battery Current Limit = 60A cont. / 120A peak
Controller Battery Current Limit = Configurable
Let's assume that the Controller Battery Current Limit is configured higher than the BMS limit so the BMS limit will be activated before the controller limit is activated.
If you are running at 25% PWM and the motor phases are drawing 100A, the actual battery current will be 100 X 25%=25 Amps. No limiting is in effect.
Then a you start climbing a slow steep hill. Running at 20% PWM, the motor now needs to draw 300A. The phase current will be limited to 280 amps by the controller and the battery current will be 280 X 20% =56 Amps.
After the hill you ride at high speed, say %80 PWM. The motor needs 180 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 180 X %80 = 144 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 120 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 150 Amps (150 X %80 = 120).
Earlier I tried to give a generic example to explain the principles without resorting to complex formulas and now another example using the data from your hardware. I think you better ask more specific questions, like what you want to know about your hardware or about principles you want to understand better.
Avner.
"Your" example:
Controller Continuous Phase Current Limit=110A
Controller Peak Phase Current limit=280A
BMS Battery Current Limit = 60A cont. / 120A peak
Controller Battery Current Limit = Configurable
Let's assume that the Controller Battery Current Limit is configured higher than the BMS limit so the BMS limit will be activated before the controller limit is activated.
If you are running at 25% PWM and the motor phases are drawing 100A, the actual battery current will be 100 X 25%=25 Amps. No limiting is in effect.
Then a you start climbing a slow steep hill. Running at 20% PWM, the motor now needs to draw 300A. The phase current will be limited to 280 amps by the controller and the battery current will be 280 X 20% =56 Amps.
After the hill you ride at high speed, say %80 PWM. The motor needs 180 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 180 X %80 = 144 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 120 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 150 Amps (150 X %80 = 120).
Earlier I tried to give a generic example to explain the principles without resorting to complex formulas and now another example using the data from your hardware. I think you better ask more specific questions, like what you want to know about your hardware or about principles you want to understand better.
Avner.
Last edited by ferret on Nov 29 2016 3:10am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Nice worked example but a minor mixup at the end? 120 / 0.8 = 150A phase currentferret wrote: After the hill you ride at high speed, say %80 PWM. The motor needs 180 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 180 X %80 = 144 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 120 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 96 Amps (120 X %80 = 96).
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Simple Motor Analysis
PWM controls effective voltage to the motor (not motor current). Motor current will vary with speed due to back EMF.
In a standard controller, throttle sets PWM unless overridden by a limit. In a torque throttle controller the PWM is adjusted by a feedback loop to control the motor current which is proportional to torque, and of course limits still apply.
Effective motor voltage is battery voltage times PWM (01).
Back EMF from the motor varies with speed, from zero when stopped to full battery voltage at no load maximum speed.
The voltage that drives current in the motor is the difference between Effective motor voltage and Back EMF. The motor current is this voltage difference divided by the system resistance, which is primarily the motor's resistance.
Sinewave and Trapezoidal are commutation techniques, varying in step size from small steps in Sine to big sixty degree jumps in Trapezoidal.
PWM controls effective voltage to the motor (not motor current). Motor current will vary with speed due to back EMF.
In a standard controller, throttle sets PWM unless overridden by a limit. In a torque throttle controller the PWM is adjusted by a feedback loop to control the motor current which is proportional to torque, and of course limits still apply.
Effective motor voltage is battery voltage times PWM (01).
Back EMF from the motor varies with speed, from zero when stopped to full battery voltage at no load maximum speed.
The voltage that drives current in the motor is the difference between Effective motor voltage and Back EMF. The motor current is this voltage difference divided by the system resistance, which is primarily the motor's resistance.
Sinewave and Trapezoidal are commutation techniques, varying in step size from small steps in Sine to big sixty degree jumps in Trapezoidal.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Thank you for clarifying this.Alan B wrote:Sinewave and Trapezoidal are commutation techniques, varying in step size from small steps in Sine to big sixty degree jumps in Trapezoidal.
I've wrestled with question of how "sinewave controllers" actually work. From my limited understanding, it seems like a true sinewave controller would necessarily be an analog system. If I understand what you say... then what actually happens is that a digital controller approximates an analog waveform by generating a large number of variablelength on/off pulses within each cycle of the waveform? If examined closely, the waveform would be "notchy", consisting of many tiny on/off time slices, but examined at a gross level the power delivery would appear as a smooth wave? (I'm probably not saying this clearly, but is that at least directionally correct?)
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
The inductance in the motor essentially filters PWM into smooth waveforms.
A truly analog system would be terribly inefficient. When the steps are small enough the digital system is essentially equivalent.
The real point of a Sinewave controller is to rotate the magnetic field more smoothly in the motor. So the current through the motor follows two paths through coils acting at different angles and the sum of the fields makes a net field in between the two that depends on how the current is divided. So the field can be rotated in between the fixed locations of Trapezoidal commutation.
A truly analog system would be terribly inefficient. When the steps are small enough the digital system is essentially equivalent.
The real point of a Sinewave controller is to rotate the magnetic field more smoothly in the motor. So the current through the motor follows two paths through coils acting at different angles and the sum of the fields makes a net field in between the two that depends on how the current is divided. So the field can be rotated in between the fixed locations of Trapezoidal commutation.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Thanks,Punx0r wrote:Nice worked example but a minor mixup at the end? 120 / 0.8 = 150A phase currentferret wrote: After the hill you ride at high speed, say %80 PWM. The motor needs 180 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 180 X %80 = 144 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 120 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 96 Amps (120 X %80 = 96).
I will edit the original posts to correct the mistake.
Avner.
 smeagol222 100 W
 Posts: 172
 Joined: Dec 17 2015 7:36am
 Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Thanks for the explanation. So the PWM is based on the kelly controller programming more specifically the motor current and battery current limits? The controller just comes up with this %PWM based on hill/flat/downhill power requirements? I still dont know how that relates to battery current/phase currentferret wrote:PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) is the way the controller sends electricity from the battery to the motor. For example, when the controller is running %50 PWM, the battery is connected to the motor %50 of the time. This is roughly equivalent to giving the motor %50 of the voltage for %100 of the time, which will make the bike run at %50 max speed (assuming negligible aerodynamic resistance ).
"Your" example:
Controller Continuous Phase Current Limit=110A
Controller Peak Phase Current limit=280A
BMS Battery Current Limit = 60A cont. / 120A peak
Controller Battery Current Limit = Configurable
Let's assume that the Controller Battery Current Limit is configured higher than the BMS limit so the BMS limit will be activated before the controller limit is activated.
If you are running at 25% PWM and the motor phases are drawing 100A, the actual battery current will be 100 X 25%=25 Amps. No limiting is in effect.
Then a you start climbing a slow steep hill. Running at 20% PWM, the motor now needs to draw 300A. The phase current will be limited to 280 amps by the controller and the battery current will be 280 X 20% =56 Amps.
After the hill you ride at high speed, say %80 PWM. The motor needs 180 Amps which means that the controller will need to draw 180 X %80 = 144 Amps from the battery. Since it is limited to draw only 120 battery Amps, the actual phase current will be 150 Amps (150 X %80 = 120).
Earlier I tried to give a generic example to explain the principles without resorting to complex formulas and now another example using the data from your hardware. I think you better ask more specific questions, like what you want to know about your hardware or about principles you want to understand better.
Avner.
Specifically I want to know the optimal kelly controller programming settings for my battery, controller, motor combination
I've had a read of the kelly programming reference
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18916
So from what I can gather according to KEB type demo and my controller battery numbers, I just need to set max limits and downhill/flat will follow suit?
http://kellycontroller.com/KEBhelp.php
controller
•Peak Phase Current: 280A
•Continuous Phase: 110A
battery 60a/120a discharge
leave the max motor current to 100% and just change the max battery current to 70%?
70% of 280A = 196a phase?
motor accepts max of 90a (or there abouts 7000w peak at 72v)
leaving 100% motor current 280a phase from controller?
This feels like the wrong forum for me (too advanced) I'd really like to learn here, I threw myself in the deep and and paying the price now haha .
Is there any reference material / electronics course I should have read/done before posting & tackling this project? I suppose I will just email Kelly/QS motors for end user/consumer advice?
First project small Escooter upgrade 3kw 48v 45a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
I may have over complicated my explanation by introducing PWM into the discussion. Here is another way to look at it:
The controller acts like a transformer, it has an input: battery voltage and battery current and an output of phase current and "phase voltage". Because of the conservation of energy, Input Power= Output Power (neglecting the controller's efficiency losses). Power is voltage X current, therefore battery voltage X battery current = "phase voltage" X phase current.
Battery voltage and battery current are fairly easy to measure. "Phase voltage" is roughly proportional to the motor speed (and so is the controller's PWM).
Lets say your battery voltage is 72V and battery current 50A and the motor is spinning at %50 speed. 72V X 50A = 360 Watts going through the controller.
The "phase voltage" is 72 X %50 = 36V. The phase current is Output power/"phase voltage" = 360W/36V=100A.
The main points to keep in mind are:
The relationship between battery current and phase current is not fixed, it is constantly changing according to riding conditions.
Battery current is usually limited in order to protect the battery.
Phase current is usually limited in order to protect the motor.
The optimal settings are determined through trial and error and depend on the hardware and average riding conditions.
I suggest the following:
Since the battery is protected by the BMS' 120A current limiting, I would set the limit in the controller to 100% so that the controller won't do any battery current limiting.The BMS will protect the battery so there is no need for the controller to do it.
A common starting point for phase current limit is 2X the battery current limit, in this case 2 X 120 = 240.
Therefore, I would initially set the motor current limit to %85 (%85 X 280A=240A) and test.
If the motor is getting hot or the bike wheelies too much lower the limit and test again.
If the motor is struggling to get going from a standstill raise the limit and test again.
Avner.
The controller acts like a transformer, it has an input: battery voltage and battery current and an output of phase current and "phase voltage". Because of the conservation of energy, Input Power= Output Power (neglecting the controller's efficiency losses). Power is voltage X current, therefore battery voltage X battery current = "phase voltage" X phase current.
Battery voltage and battery current are fairly easy to measure. "Phase voltage" is roughly proportional to the motor speed (and so is the controller's PWM).
Lets say your battery voltage is 72V and battery current 50A and the motor is spinning at %50 speed. 72V X 50A = 360 Watts going through the controller.
The "phase voltage" is 72 X %50 = 36V. The phase current is Output power/"phase voltage" = 360W/36V=100A.
The main points to keep in mind are:
The relationship between battery current and phase current is not fixed, it is constantly changing according to riding conditions.
Battery current is usually limited in order to protect the battery.
Phase current is usually limited in order to protect the motor.
The optimal settings are determined through trial and error and depend on the hardware and average riding conditions.
I suggest the following:
Since the battery is protected by the BMS' 120A current limiting, I would set the limit in the controller to 100% so that the controller won't do any battery current limiting.The BMS will protect the battery so there is no need for the controller to do it.
A common starting point for phase current limit is 2X the battery current limit, in this case 2 X 120 = 240.
Therefore, I would initially set the motor current limit to %85 (%85 X 280A=240A) and test.
If the motor is getting hot or the bike wheelies too much lower the limit and test again.
If the motor is struggling to get going from a standstill raise the limit and test again.
Avner.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Using the BMS to protect the battery in normal operation is not advisable. The BMS can only "trip off" like a circuit breaker, removing power totally (and requiring something like unplugging the controller to reset it). The actual value the BMS trips at is generally not precise and is already too much for normal operation and long battery life. It is a safety mechanism, not a proper control. The controller can regulate at a limit, which is a proper control.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
I can't think how the current limit values for the QS motor have been derived? For one thing, 90A phase peak seems rather low for a motor of that size!
 smeagol222 100 W
 Posts: 172
 Joined: Dec 17 2015 7:36am
 Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
I pretty sure its 90a in battery current terms. QS say that it does 7000w peak. At 72v thats around 97.22aPunx0r wrote:I can't think how the current limit values for the QS motor have been derived? For one thing, 90A phase peak seems rather low for a motor of that size!
Last edited by smeagol222 on Nov 30 2016 11:25am, edited 1 time in total.
First project small Escooter upgrade 3kw 48v 45a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=86228
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Current project medium Escooter upgrade 8kw 72v 100.5a https://endlesssphere.com/forums/viewt ... 10&t=85164
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Hi Avner,ferret wrote:I may have over complicated my explanation by introducing PWM into the discussion. Here is another way to look at it:
The controller acts like a transformer, it has an input: battery voltage and battery current and an output of phase current and "phase voltage". Because of the conservation of energy, Input Power= Output Power (neglecting the controller's efficiency losses). Power is voltage X current, therefore battery voltage X battery current = "phase voltage" X phase current.
Battery voltage and battery current are fairly easy to measure. "Phase voltage" is roughly proportional to the motor speed (and so is the controller's PWM).
...
Avner.
You appear to have neglected square root 3 and power factor in your 3phase power calculation. Ref my previous post about 5 down from top.
major
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
Hi Major.
I am aware that my description is a simplified one that doesn't include all the factors involved. My research into this subject was only deep enough to give me a enough understanding for my bike builds. I was trying to get an intuitive feel for what is going on in the controller rather than an accurate mathematical description.
Avner.
I am aware that my description is a simplified one that doesn't include all the factors involved. My research into this subject was only deep enough to give me a enough understanding for my bike builds. I was trying to get an intuitive feel for what is going on in the controller rather than an accurate mathematical description.
Avner.
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
The motor vendor can only rate motor current and voltage limits. They have no idea what battery voltage is being used so cannot reference battery current limits.
Look at the current capacity of the motor wiring (what gauge is it?). Is it heavy enough to sustain more than 90 amps? The losses are predominantly I squared R.
The other factor is how they define of peak  does that mean for one millisecond or ten minutes? Big difference.
Look at the current capacity of the motor wiring (what gauge is it?). Is it heavy enough to sustain more than 90 amps? The losses are predominantly I squared R.
The other factor is how they define of peak  does that mean for one millisecond or ten minutes? Big difference.

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Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
if input power (battery to ESC) is equal to the output power (ESC to motor), and the Phase Current=Wattage/(%PWM * Voltage), then wouldn't the phase current have to be infinite when the speed (%PWM) is 0?
Re: Phase current VS Battery current...
No.joshuahuang wrote: ↑Oct 04 2019 1:02pmif input power (battery to ESC) is equal to the output power (ESC to motor), and the Phase Current=Wattage/(%PWM * Voltage), then wouldn't the phase current have to be infinite when the speed (%PWM) is 0?
The maximum current that can flow is (battery voltage  back emf) / total resistance when the FET switches are closed. Total resistance includes battery, wiring, connectors, FET switches, traces and motor windings. Back EMF is a function of speed, so zero to start with. The PWM switching can reduce the current to a lower value from there. There is no current multiplication without PWM switching.