14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

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DrkAngel   10 GW

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14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 15 2012 1:34pm

My experience has been with the EZip type non-hubmotor wheels. (EZip Wheel Re-builds)

Most all my recommendations are somewhat applicable to all wheels.

Redrilling Spoke Holes

#1 Size of hub holes 1/8".

#2 Size of wheel holes 3/16".

Spoke "Lacing"

#1 Plan on a pattern that puts the torque on the outside spokes.

#2 Take into consideration torque on front wheel with disc brake(directionally opposed to motored front wheel.)

#3 Ignore disc brake on rear motored wheel
Motor on rear wheel should take precedence over disc brake considerations, rear wheel (dual braking) supplies only 20% braking power of front wheel

#4 "Rim" brakes should be ignored, as a spoke factor.

#5 "Important" - Lace all spokes into hub and align ... BEFORE beginning to insert into nipples.
12ga spokes do not "flex", they will bend
I did one side then positioned by making a run with electrical tape, a wrap at each spoke cross.
Then did similar with the opposite side.
Then began threading into nipples

#6 Coarse alignment - Equally thread nipples, I threaded till the thread was covered.
Then I tightened each nipple an equal number of turns.
Repeat until nearly tight
(I used a quality variable speed cordless drill with a straight bit. )
Note: put dot of "white out" or similar , on straight bit - easier to count turns!
Only if you have proper size spokes! Typically, each side uses different lengths!

#7 Final adjustment should be done on the bike it will be used with

Bonus Section!

#1 Spokes are now stronger than wheel?

You might pull the stronger spokes right through the wheel?
So ... washers!
#10 SAE "stamped" washers have a nice concave side, that works nicely with 12ga nipples.
Aluminum alloy wheels don't particularly like steel, even zinc coated steel washers, against them, so I ran 2 wraps of duct tape between.

Image

I planned ahead ordered spokes of +2mm length ... not necessary, as it turned out, plenty of threads with shorter length!

#2 Spokes keep breaking at elbow, hub flange too thin, ... too much spoke "flex"? #4 SAE washers work nicely, and look impressive!

Image

Stainless steel washers recommended!

SAPIM STAINLESS 12G SPOKE
Product #435925
$0.35
Last edited by DrkAngel on Mar 22 2012 3:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrkAngel   10 GW

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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 22 2012 8:50am

Washers for strength, alignment etc.

12ga spokes:
can use #10 or #12 washers, for nipples.(check wheel width, for washer "fit")
can use #4 or #6 washers on hub.

14ga spokes:
can use #10 washers, for nipples.
can use #4 washers on hub.
Possibly smaller - not tested.

(Test your spokes against locally available washers - before quantity purchases)

Stainless washers are, typically, thinner.
If necessary, 2 washers could be used, for optimal spoke positioning?
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jateureka   10 kW

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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by jateureka » Mar 22 2012 5:28pm

DrkAngel wrote:My experience has been with the EZip type non-hubmotor wheels. (EZip Wheel Re-builds)

Spoke "Lacing" #1 Plan on a pattern that puts the torque on the outside spokes.

Can you elaborate on how to achieve this? Should the outside spokes be leading or trailing?

Is this what you are talking about? http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index. ... eel_Lacing

EDIT: ok I read your post here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=37728 Thanks
Last edited by jateureka on Mar 22 2012 6:44pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by DAND214 » Mar 22 2012 6:01pm

I did just the oppsite!

The 12g were breaking so went to the 14g Sapim with a new wheel. At least you can get tension adjustment with a 14g spoke, not like the China crap 12g.

Spokes aren't breaking anymore :?

And I don't get as much growl from the hub?

Dan

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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 22 2012 6:57pm

jateureka wrote:
DrkAngel wrote:My experience has been with the EZip type non-hubmotor wheels. (EZip Wheel Re-builds)

Spoke "Lacing" #1 Plan on a pattern that puts the torque on the outside spokes.

Can you elaborate on how to achieve this? Should the outside spokes be leading or trailing?
OEM - Wrong

Image

Corrected - The hub should pull the wheel around

Image

Motor & pedal turn this wheel clockwise.

Image
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jateureka   10 kW

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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by jateureka » Mar 22 2012 7:33pm

So you suggest outside spokes on both sides of the rear wheel should point forward (leading)? Interesting, I'll have to look into that further.

That is the opposite of what Shimano and Magura say with regrads to disc brake rotors and drive sides, but they also suggest braking forces are stronger than drive forces... http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index. ... eel_Lacing

"... to keep the outside spokes on each respective side in full tension while braking and only the drive side of the rear wheel being changed..."

"...Head-inside-spokes (= arc outside spokes) have to be pulled, i.e. these spokes point forward on the front wheel; on the back wheel these spokes point forward on the rotor side and backwards on the drive side..."
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DrkAngel   10 GW

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Re: 14ga to 12ga Spoke Upgrade

Post by DrkAngel » Mar 23 2012 1:13am

This picture illustrates the problem I ran into.

OEM - Wrong

Image

The problem was 2-fold.
The "elbow inward" "stressed" spokes were continually breaking, at the elbow stress point.
Various eZips were laced differently but the inward elbowed side was always the side that broke!
The "inward" spokes are poorly supported leading to amplified stress on the elbow.
This problem is amplified by the use of a "too thin" hub spoke flange.

Changing the direction of the spokes appears to support the elbow closer to the bend, reducing the "leverage" at that weak point.
The addition of washers pulled the bend fairly tight, to the hub flange, reducing the "torsional stress" even further.

With a wider, or better designed, "hub spoke flange" this might not be a factor.
For example, the "present source unknown" replacement hub supported the spokes excellently.
There was some "spring" just crossing the spokes.

Image
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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DrkAngel   10 GW

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Staton-inc 12ga Left\Right drive wheel

Post by DrkAngel » Sep 11 2016 7:53am

Staton-inc 12ga Left\Right drive wheel

I am the local eZip "expert".
Neighbors 2013 eZip Trailz suffered a rear bearing cup failure.
After failing to confirm an iZip (better hub design) wheel replacement, I ordered a "top quality" 12ga spoke, 4 sealed ball bearing "custom wheel" from Staton-inc.com = $200 including shipping!
Took email queries and 16 days to arrive ...

Received wheel that I had to describe as:
Build looks to exemplify every bad-poor “mistake” I can imagine!!!

Emailed Staton-inc the Following:

"Problem with order!

Received 12ga wheel build today but am upset at the “build” method and quality.

1. tube stem position is not positioned between wide space spoke location

2. spoke holes in wheel were not sized for 12ga nipples, resulting in bent spokes at nipple ends

3. proper rear wheel build requires spokes of 2 differing lengths! It appears 2 differing length were used but not separated for the proper sides ... resulting in some spokes barely catching nipple threads and others fully through nipples

4. spokes unevenly tensioned

5. The pulling spokes should be the outside spokes to prevent stressing the elbows, ... pulling spokes were built on inside


Build looks to exemplify every bad-poor “mistake” I can imagine!!!

Considering the cost, $200 delivered, I expected near perfection ...

Customer is already anxious so I will have to totally disassemble and rebuild wheel myself ...

Please respond!

Walter"

Included pictures:

Poor valve stem placement!
Never had any other wheel with improper vale stem placement!
1. valve stem.jpg
1. valve stem.jpg (201.06 KiB) Viewed 981 times
Rim holes were never resized for 12ga spokes, nipples fit snug and straight forcing spokes to bend at nipple.
Damaging stress at rim + nipple + spoke!!!
2. Bent at nipples.jpg
2. Bent at nipples.jpg (81.14 KiB) Viewed 981 times
Bad spoke tensioning!
Some really crap spoke depth adjustment resulting in spoke through nipple and barely into 1st threads of nipple.
None tensioned!
Further tightening would result in some spokes poking through nipples.
3. bad positioned spokes.jpg
3. bad positioned spokes.jpg (87.95 KiB) Viewed 981 times
And Spokes directionalized as resulted in continuous spoke breakage on multiple eZips!
5. Stressed elbows.jpg
5. Stressed elbows.jpg (99.95 KiB) Viewed 981 times
"

Reply from Staton-inc ... ?

"Walter, Send it back if you do not like it.
Build looks to exemplify every bad-poor “mistake” I can imagine!!!

Thanks
Staton-Inc.

http://www.staton-inc.com & http://www.motorizedwheelbarrow.com
3310 S. Brunson Street
Oklahoma City, OK 73119

Phone & Fax: 405-605-3765"


Hub itself looks excellent ...
Maybe their wheel builder was on vacation and some know-nothing kid put the wheel together ... ?
Still doesn't excuse the support department total lack of concern for a crap-defective product build being shipped to a customer!
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - November 2018

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki - Lost?

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