Not being able to drive smoothly at half speed MAC

Driving haf throttle never seems to work I like bursts, but alot of the times I think it just leads to nervous road manners.
Does anyone else with a 48v system, MAC, infineon controller suffer from this?

And can you name the tricks you have to overcome this?
Like plugging your throttle into the CA. Is it all about controlling the amps instead of pulsing it, like a controller does?
What's wrong?

I would like to have a throttle that varies in voltage/amps maybe watts? Is that possible, would that solve the problem?
I wonder how motorcycle/car controls regulate the power to the motor.. or an electric wheelchair?

My motor runs really smooth and quiet once it gets above 50km/h, really enjoyable! But when in the city I want it to sort of gear down as to not attract too much attention, not go above 35km/h so that has to be cruise speed, no insurance and such, I met a few policecars they looked weary, but didn't pull me over, it's just soo quiet @ speed&WOT. But it's all or nothing.
And that's really not a plus!

..... I want my 4stroke scooter baaack..

Pulling up a bridge from a stand still accelerating to whatever speed you like enjoying the scenery with a girl & accesiores holding you very tight... those were the days

But since I really only need 2 say,'gears', an extra swicth here or there could do the trick for me.
I have thought about a switch to switch from 48 to 24 v, series to parallel on the fly. Bot I don't have a BMS 2x, because BMS = BS haha. :wink:
Have to find a way to get around that, a way to switch the higher LVC to lower LVC at the same time, may it be the CA could do this?
too complicated way of thinking? And when @ 24V, how much torque can still be generated if needed, does it accelerate as fast I you'd double the amps? The top speed would be as needed because the no load speed is around 75km/h, because it;s a 6T (@26").

That's exactly how my motor ran before i got the new cell_man controller.
Also, there was a blast of power as soon as i tipped the throttle in.

Partial throttle resulted in the motor constantly turning on and off, and the throttle was like an on-off switch.

The MXUS 9FET controller ( comes with the DD kit ) worked fairly well, but shuddered at certain speeds.
The 12FET is butter smooth on the 8T MAC. The 9FET is a little twitchy but not too bad. My old design cell_man 9FET is basically collecting dust as it's useless with these motors.

Okay thanks!

I should have known that by reading better when buying a 9FET from Lyen. It's compact, but not up for the MAC job.
I am gonna order some stuff from Cell_man, 12 FET, 8T stator.

I believe that will make a world of difference! You excactly describe my problem

I have the 8T and cell_man's 12 Fet. It can smoothly take off and cruise at walking speed. I use only the first and second positions of the 3 speed switch, and find the throttle to be very nice.. Lots of control and steps up in gradual increments..

You wont regret it ..

I already contacted cellman, business is being taken care off as we type
Yes I know I won´t regret this! whohooooooo

Are you sure you don't want to reinforce that frame a little?
Seems kind of weak....

teklektik said:

Are you sure you don't want to reinforce that frame a little?
Seems kind of weak....

Click to expand...

Yeah with you on it, it would not survive a day....... :wink:

haha

I am more than a little worried about all that weight on the front, not strengthwise, but handling-wise.
It suffers from severe understeer @ speed, I knew this in advance, but you never really know unless you try it so... The upside is the suspension fork, wich takes away the vibrations on bumpy roads, so the packs stay well attached to the frame!

I'm gonna distribute the battery weight better, that will be my next stage after I finetuned the Cell-man EB3 controller, wich I just ordered.. But the batteries will still be attached to the carriers and not inside the frame triangle, because this non electric cargobike design just does not lend itself for that. So the gravity point will always stay too high, o never mind that, this bike is made for carrying LOADS

off topic:
The only thing I'm worried about is the gyroscopic effect of that front motor, do the fast spinning gears inside also contribute to that? Or not because they are light weight?

I'm reffering to this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37973

iperov said:

Better than cyclone - because no gears and overheat.
Better then motor-wheel because spinning weight removed from wheel - more effeciency and removed gyro effect.

Click to expand...

Jochem

Quajochem said:

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Very cool and interresting REVERSE BRAKE LEVERS on the ends of your handle bars. Do you know if those are made specially for that bike or is it just a brake part we can we order separately from somewhere? It's also hard to see from your pics but where does the brake cable run?... inside the handle bar... then somehow exit?

interesting build glad to see you have a torque arm, keep an eye on that too because those mag alloy forks will snap like a twig if they take any strain from the motor axle, in other words make sure that torque arm is very snug.

Sacman said:

Quajochem said:

Click to expand...

Very cool and interresting REVERSE BRAKE LEVERS on the ends of your handle bars. Do you know if those are made specially for that bike or is it just a brake part we can we order separately from somewhere? It's also hard to see from your pics but where does the brake cable run?... inside the handle bar... then somehow exit?

Click to expand...

I got those handlebars from Michael Kemper, a bikedesigner who told me they are from mopeds made in the 30's so they are original and very old! But they do still make them in a modernised version, only I don't know where you can buy them..
The cables run through the steering tube yes:

knoxie said:

interesting build glad to see you have a torque arm, keep an eye on that too because those mag alloy forks will snap like a twig if they take any strain from the motor axle, in other words make sure that torque arm is very snug.

Click to expand...

I hear you! This happened to my first arm in my first 200m with my mac:


So I made some adjustments, I even grinded the axle to an exact fit on one side now:


I also tried to dissipate the forces evenly on the fork as to stress it as less as possible.
On one side I made use of the eh 'thing/brackets' that normally hold the diskbrake caliper.
I also looked at the direction they want to turn in when you hit the throttle.
Here are the latest pics:







O in fact there are 3 torque arms on it, And did you notice the 3:1 shrink wire around the nut, no water can get inside that axle 8)

I forgot to mention there's another problem with my setup.
I have the Lyen 9FET wich is a wonderfull controller, but not for this mac 6T I have experienced. (which I wanted despite of all your advice, to go straight for a 12 FET Cellman just because that lyen controller is nice and small)

The motor will run smoothly if the controller is set to anything above 30A phase (48V), (the higher the smoother,) anything under that makes it stutter severely at speeds from 20km/h to about 45km/h.
So with the phase current when riding (shown by CA) about 30A 40A peak it rides nice and with good torque, without the motor being stressed too much (you can feel that/hear that). But after a minute or 2, apparently when something heats up somewhere inside it will shut down at any speed below 30km/h.
And it does this regardless of how high you set the amps before riding. But the lower the amp setting, the higher speed it needs to get to (by pedaling, wich is a bitch) before it finally will catch on. @ one ride with the A @ about 25 it would only run continuesly at speeds above 49km/h, and it got worse the longer the ride lasted, just horrible if you're 20km from home, trying to ride slowly because its dark and you had a few beers. the wind is als not helping

After I let it cool down for awhile everything is normal again and I can get the motor pulling, even from a standstil without shutting down, soft start is also ok.

So when it did some work, say 20 sec @ WOT, or 1000m normal driving. and then a stoplight, I pedal some and hit the throttle, slowly, carefully it will give one short burst, then nothing untill I let go of the throttle and turn it on again, I keep repeating that, I pedal some more upto higher speed and keep twisting the throttle untill it catches on and stays on, and finally gets itself upto speed.

It feels like something in that controller is shutting down, some safetyfeature or something, feels like LVC kicking in, or brake sensor, but my batteries aren't low or anything, but when at speed you can push it as much as you like as long as you want and nothing seems wrong, it's when you slow down suddenly all is wrong and it wont accelerate or even try to...

My best guess is the small FETs heating up too much. Or something inside loosing its sensitivity, or becoming too sensitive?
Is that the case, or could it be the motor or one of the halls that got too hot?
But it happends fairly quickly, even @ lower amps. I don't understand because the lower the A setting, the higher speed it needs to catch on and run continuessly and smoothly.
strange controllerA-motorB dynamics if you ask me :?

But can I rule out the motor and the halls?
It has upgraded phase wires, so..

Re: on/off mac at low speeds, I was planning to switch to a magura throttle this weekend to try and tackle this issue (I run 48v with a cellman 9fet don't know what model... brought around the middle of last year) . Anyone have feeling whether this will solve the problem, or am I wasting my time?

Simon.

Hey guys, I'm running a Mac 8t 15s lipo on a 6fet Infieon from Keywin.
I built the controller from board less fets and cables.

You talk about cutouts from a stop, I have that problem if I don't start in the low position. Once it's rolling 5mph or so I can switch to high speed and it pulls all the way.

I have the settings for throttle at 45low 75 med and 120 for high.
I was asked if the 120 mqkes any differance and yes it does. test today low at 45 med 100 and high was 120. If i held the throttle at 10mph on 100 then switched to 120 it picked up 2mph same thing at 20mph it picked up 4 mph. i couldn't get a full speed run due to crazy changing 25mph wind on the long straights i do try this. There is a slight power change full throttle when I switch from 100 to 120%.

On the phase I'm at 75 and battery is at 35. I did notice if I lowered the battery current I had a missfire around half speed which went away at higher speed.

I see 65amp draw n my CA with only 1.5v drop from battery voltage.
From a hard start. I use a stand alone CA.

I know the controller worked fine as I received it before I flashed it as I had a hard time getting the software to run.
I also have a 12 fet I built at the same time. they both work great.

I haven't figured out why the controller shuts down from a dead stop if it's in med or high but works fine in the low position.

I also did learn you don't want to set the phase at 100 and battery at 60, It blew my clutch out in short time. All fixed and runnig fine. I have a spare clutch from BMC since I also have them.

Dan

I think rear wheel drive is better for that front fork and wieght.

Kwajongen, misschien kan je het eens met mijn controller proberen ? Moet je nog wel even geduld
hebben, over 1 a 2 maanden, tot mijn fiets af is. Het plan is om dan een PCB voor mijn controller IC
te ontwerpen. Ik heb het gevoel dat mijn controller geen probleem zal hebben met een MAC, dit is
vooral gebaseerd op wat ik weet van commerciele controllers (rommel met hoofdletter R). Gebruik
je een MAC voorwiel motor (350 W) ?

(Quajochem, maybe you can try with my controller once I designed a PCB for it)

Lebowski said:

Kwajongen, misschien kan je het eens met mijn controller proberen ? Moet je nog wel even geduld
hebben, over 1 a 2 maanden, tot mijn fiets af is. Het plan is om dan een PCB voor mijn controller IC
te ontwerpen. Ik heb het gevoel dat mijn controller geen probleem zal hebben met een MAC, dit is
vooral gebaseerd op wat ik weet van commerciele controllers (rommel met hoofdletter R). Gebruik
je een MAC voorwiel motor (350 W) ?

(Quajochem, maybe you can try with my controller once I designed a PCB for it)

Click to expand...

would you mind posting in english? would be a very hard to read forum if my mixed up languages as we like ...

and to Quajochem:

i have the very same problem. i have a 209 infineon and no problem with full speed on a 10T mac. but i have troubles keeping lower speeds. my current/watt readings jump around be 50% and it's not nice riding the bike.

i now ordered a 309 from cellman and am quite sure it will do a better job.

Lebowski said:

Kwajongen, misschien kan je het eens met mijn controller proberen ? Moet je nog wel even geduld
hebben, over 1 a 2 maanden, tot mijn fiets af is. Het plan is om dan een PCB voor mijn controller IC
te ontwerpen. Ik heb het gevoel dat mijn controller geen probleem zal hebben met een MAC, dit is
vooral gebaseerd op wat ik weet van commerciele controllers (rommel met hoofdletter R). Gebruik
je een MAC voorwiel motor (350 W) ?

(Quajochem, maybe you can try with my controller once I designed a PCB for it)

Click to expand...

Not excactly a 350W model, it's a front 6T rated 1000W, the last one they had in stock:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34997
with now (inmiddels) upgraded phasewires
read what cell man has to say about it, it's interesting!

I am planning on switching to a 8T stator, see how that runs, slightly more torque at low speeds (onderin )
Slightly less smooth at high speed I just want to experiment and experience it ALL once
I'm looking for the bike I always dreamed off.
And the maybe when Im ten years richer I will go for the full suspension motorbike/crosser clones. Now I am sticking to hauling my cheap groceries around on it and saving on train tickets (and fines) ..

Thanks for the offer btw! Im always open to new & creative solutions, let me know how you're getting on!
It's sowieso nice to have a collegue in your own area who you can get to meet in rl and knows what youre talking about

People often think I ride some kind of black box monster, they're almost afraid of it, alienated, and have alot of questions (mostly males).
It's also strange to be the one who rides it through 'conservative' traffic...
One day when I have the money I will have it coated white, I think it suits me & the bike more

What's a PCB??
P..
Circuit
Board
?

999zip999 said:

I think rear wheel drive is better for that front fork and wieght.

Click to expand...

I will only go with rear drive if I could combine it with an ATS
http://www.ats-speeddrive.com/tpl/all_sd_item.html
system and have it perform well and quiet when pulling away from a stand still and up hills without wearing out my knees or loosing momentum, with rear drive I'd need more torque at low speeds because I would otherwise not get away from a stoplight or up a bridge. And I'm just too addicted to pedaling and accellerating with my Nuvinci while being assisted by the front drive, or the other way around, I am assisting the high speed motor at low speeds by pedaling and te nuvinci enables me to use my muscle power the most efficient, just very smooth way of excersising.. and no mid drive or high voltage torque motor needed, to me the best of both worlds. I don't like the idea of 2 fixed gears, a deraiileur, or worse: not a gear at all. To me it's still a pedelec, only one capable of covering larger distances on boring straight roads because it has a 'fast mode'.
Or I want it to be that... The handling is not upto standards, I agree but who cares, keeps me sharp.
The disc brake is more worrying, or the lack of one...
But let's say it's all experimental. (I would never sell this as a productionmodel! Not safe at all hehe)
All the knowledge from riding and building this one will find its way into a new improved one.
The front fork holds well upto now. fingers crossed 8)
And I am already wondering how well a front motor would work on a swing arm like on this honda cub:

I think it would crouch down when accelerating and try to get up when braking.. interesting! and nice retro look to go along with it
I'd like to build a custom, cleaner more mechanical looking fork, but based on this same suspension system
Could that be done icw a front hub motor? I don't think it would work. :? The breaking works like a charm, it stays exacly levelled. But the fork would temporairly lift the wheel from the ground each time you accellerate abrubtly/apply torque.

Quajochem said:

What's a PCB??

Click to expand...

printed circuit board - the board where all electronic components are installed

thanks