Doc's Watercooled Hub motor project ( 5403)

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Doc's Watercooled Hub motor project ( 5403)

Post by Doctorbass » May 20 2012 12:32am

8) :D :mrgreen: :D 8)


UPDATE ON PAGE 3 ( new principle and more efficient and simple) http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 3&start=30

Yes... This motor still have not make a single rotation on any of my ebike, but it will be liquidcooled !

I want it to me a REAL beast and to have it able to sustain that title of real beast during an entire run !!!

No more motor overheat problem.. no temp gauge to watch and that require reducing the throttle!

I already remachined the axel to have 3 x 10 gauges wire to fit perfectly and the other side of the axel a similar groove but that will contain the 2 brass pipe for the inlet and outlet!

To do that i needed to replace the smaller 6004 bearing of the axel by another 6005 to accomodathe enough room to have the two pipe required room.

The big probelm was to have enough I.D. to have enough liquid flow to make efficient the cooling, but the room for the pipe is restricted. I finally found a great way to have really thin tube thickness and not too gfragile. I found that using TV telescopic antenna brass tube is just perfect !!

So the I.D. is like 1/4 inch !! and the O.D is like 9/32" !!

I dont have the time and $$$ to have custom machined aluminum path for the liquid so i dediced to go with copper tube

Problem with copper tube is that the effective surface that can be in contact with the aluminum of the stator is really low .. unless the tube are square.. but i have normal tube :lol: .. and they are round !

So the way i found is to add some 22mil copper sheet that increase the effective surface in thermal contact with the aluminum of the stator and to solder them to the spiral copper tubes.

No worrie i will post pictures of the project soon. :wink: I expect to have 4 foots lengh of the 1/4" I.D. copper tube touching the copper sheet that are in contact with like 70% of the aluminum of the stator.

Worst case of use of that liquid cooling setup might be to extract like 4-5kW of heat for a 16-17kW power input... at 130-140km/h

Doc
Last edited by Doctorbass on Jun 01 2012 3:21pm, edited 2 times in total.
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 20 2012 12:43am

Some first pics:
:wink:

I wil add some aerospace grade NUSIL thermally conductive Adhesive between the aluminum and the copper as well.

Also it's not shown on the pictures yet but i will also cover the center 6 branches star aluminum with copper sheet that will have a spiral of copper tube soldered on it. ( see the image on the paper sheet ( wich represent the center copper sheet that will be placed on both side of the motor

I might call it PORJECT SPIDER :twisted: ( the desing look like a cobweb :lol: )


Doc
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Last edited by Doctorbass on May 20 2012 12:56am, edited 1 time in total.
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by hjns » May 20 2012 12:52am

Just an idea, if you fill the motor with a little bit of ATF oil, it will much better transfer the heat from the coils to your superduper copper pipe filled with supercool liquid. Alternatively, why don't you circulate oil in the whole motor, and use the copper pipe as radiator in front of your bike?

Anyway, I love what you do, so keep it up!
Henk


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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 20 2012 12:59am

hjns wrote:Just an idea, if you fill the motor with a little bit of ATF oil, it will much better transfer the heat from the coils to your superduper copper pipe filled with supercool liquid. Alternatively, why don't you circulate oil in the whole motor, and use the copper pipe as radiator in front of your bike?

Anyway, I love what you do, so keep it up!
I see your suggesting, but I dont want any oil dripping probelm over the time....

Also.. my side cover are perforated with multiple holes already.. :lol: to contribute to cool it down

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Bison_69 » May 20 2012 12:09pm

Hi Doc,

Let me know if you need any scale CAD drawings (2 or 3D) for your project....


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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by wojtek » May 20 2012 3:32pm

looking forward to the first video in action :)

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 20 2012 5:31pm

Bison_69 wrote:Hi Doc,

Let me know if you need any scale CAD drawings (2 or 3D) for your project....


Ok Bye...
Thanks ! i keep that in mind!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by nechaus » May 20 2012 7:12pm

Just a Suggestion.
What about using sometype of thermal paste (micronised silver) in their or heat transfer material.. not just bare copper ? stuff we use in pc's..

Be awesome to get them pipes icy cold

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by auraslip » May 21 2012 2:46am

Doc, did you see keyne's liquid cooled motor? https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyele ... -dirt-bike

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by rojitor » May 21 2012 7:19am

This is very interesting. Subscribed.

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by rojitor » May 21 2012 7:20am

Btw i have got a 5403 too, will you use single freewheel doc?

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 21 2012 8:58am

rojitor wrote:Btw i have got a 5403 too, will you use single freewheel doc?

Yes, but i'll have enough space for a freewheel with the 11 tooth if i need :wink:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 21 2012 9:01am

auraslip wrote:Doc, did you see keyne's liquid cooled motor? https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyele ... -dirt-bike

Image

Yes i saw it, The X5 stator have no corner where to put these 45 degree sheet of material like these cromotor or 9C or HX motors. That's why i wanna use copper tubing with copper sheet surface enhencement.

But yes keyne's cooling idea was nice too

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 21 2012 9:13am

Some update on the heat collector parts for the tubing fabrications:

( i'll use a 20T press to flaten a little bit center the spiral to improove the thermal contact, but just enough to not reduce the I.D. too much.)

Doc
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Trackman417 » May 21 2012 10:14am

You just aren't happy with anything stock are you? :!:
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 23 2012 10:00pm

Trackman417 wrote:You just aren't happy with anything stock are you? :!:
Subscribed! :mrgreen:
Yes.. everything must be mod according to our own requirement :twisted:


Today i just finished to assemble all that copper together and soldered everything with some 50/50 lead.

I know it appear a little bit heavy but this is the compromise i found for guarantying that there is no possible leak.. so i choosed to keep the concept of copper tube combined with fins that suck the heat from the stator structure and bring it to the copper tube with the lead junction.

I will also put a high performance thermally conductive adhesive silicon that will fill the area between the copper fins ( blades) and the stator structure. so there will be no insulating air gap .. just some thermal conductive stuff :wink:

As well, all the radial copper blades will be bended to be as close as possible to the stator 6 branches.

This is the first half( side) of the copper system. I will begin the second half this weekend

If you have any suggestion to improove that existing concept, please let me know!


Doc
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Last edited by Doctorbass on May 23 2012 10:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by deVries » May 23 2012 10:05pm

:twisted: :shock: :lol:

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by nechaus » May 24 2012 1:28am

I think you have one of the most copper filled motors out there lol

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by keyne » May 24 2012 5:17pm

I'm really interested to see how your project goes. It is very similar to my first attempt (undocumented) at cooling a hubmotor - I decided it was too hard, too much work and would add too much weight in the end. How are you planing to get the coolant in and out of the motor? Are you going to do two sides or just the one? Good luck - looks good so far :D

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by keyne » May 24 2012 5:40pm

One thing you might want to add to your design is to put thermally conductive epoxy all over the windings to try to improve the thermal path from the windings to the stator. The air gaps in the windings and the winding paper is the major barrier. I found with mine that there was a large delta T (up to 40degC) which was improved substantially by adding about 60g of themal epoxy to the sides of the windings.

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 24 2012 6:08pm

Hey, I'm not sure if it's possible to do, but it would be cool to see how much power it takes or saves in doing this.

I.e. It would be cool to see, how much power it takes to maintain, say 80kmh, on the flat before you add the water cooling, and then, how much more (or less, due to better efficiency) after you add the water cooling since the power for pumps, fans etc will coming of your pack still.

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 25 2012 2:17am

I am using the two side of the axel one side have the phases, hall and temp sensor wires and the other side have the two 1/4 tubes (IN and OUT).

I modified the axel and the side cover to accept two 6005 bearing instead of one 6005 and one 6004. The side with the replaced 6004 for a 6005 have the two tubes. I will post pictures of that soon.

I am 100% sure that the power required by the pump ( 24W) will be largely compensated by the efficiency gain in power!!! at high temp the hub motor are like half their normal power...

This will improobe the max power duration for each ride ... or the average power level as well.

I ordered these:

Swiftech MCP655

Image



Swiftech MCR-320 Quiet Power Series Radiator

Image


Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Doctorbass » May 25 2012 2:18am

keyne wrote:One thing you might want to add to your design is to put thermally conductive epoxy all over the windings to try to improve the thermal path from the windings to the stator. The air gaps in the windings and the winding paper is the major barrier. I found with mine that there was a large delta T (up to 40degC) which was improved substantially by adding about 60g of themal epoxy to the sides of the windings.

That is a nice idea.. maybe trying with my special aerospace thermally conductive adhesive RTV :wink:

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by keyne » May 25 2012 2:59am

I'm curious to know where you are going to mount the pump and radiator?

I found with my system the limiting factor was not the pump or the radiator but getting heat to transfer from the windings to the stator more efficiently. A larger pump or larger radiator doesn't help much there. You'll find it makes a huge difference compared to an air cooled motor - I don't have to worry about overheating my motor anymore. Also are you going to use a fan on your radiator (eg. for when you have stopped after a long climb)

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Re: Doc's Liquid cooled 5403 project

Post by Bison_69 » May 25 2012 7:53am

Hi Doc,

Be carefull with this company... there are complain from customers on their website which says that they are not respecting their waranty...

http://www.swiftech.com/warranty.aspx
Swiftech disclosure.jpg
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I think you would be better off buying a motorcycle or automotive electric water pump from a small car serie like the one found in a Toyota Yaris or any other make. (which you could buy locally as well)

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SMART BMS 16-32S / 200A w/Bluetooth and LCD Display
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