Reverse polarity with my controller

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cwah   10 GW

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 20 2012 6:46pm

d8veh wrote: I never use a solder sucker to remove components. I melt the solder around the component and then I tap the board on the bench and all the solder jumps off. You have to be quick and it takes a bit of practice, but once the technique is mastered, it's quicker and easier than a sucker. If a tiny bit of solder remains and holds the component and there's not enouh to melt, add a bit more solder before tapping. To remove big lumps of solder, turn the pcb upside down and work from underneath. The solder will melt onto the iron, and you then shake it off - no need for a wick.

That's a good idea D8v3h, I'm going to do that. Seems much cleaner and simpler :)
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 20 2012 6:48pm

cal3thousand wrote: What ever the cost of Anderson's, you've far exceeded that with the controller costs.
I know :(

In this website, the 30A anderson connector seems quite cheap even if it's from the US. Maybe I should buy a lot of them here :
http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-power ... -sets.html
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cal3thousand » Jul 20 2012 7:01pm

cwah wrote:
cal3thousand wrote: What ever the cost of Anderson's, you've far exceeded that with the controller costs.
I know :(

In this website, the 30A anderson connector seems quite cheap even if it's from the US. Maybe I should buy a lot of them here :
http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-power ... -sets.html
No need to order from this side of the pond. eBay.co.uk has some pretty good listings like this one that have these rubber boots I've never seen on them:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-x-TORBERRY ... 092wt_1163
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 20 2012 7:30pm

Thanks, can I use this crimping tool also?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crimping-Tool ... 4602cb3a02

Or maybe it's better to get the official TriCrimp?
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by rkosiorek » Jul 21 2012 10:52am

cwah wrote:Thanks, can I use this crimping tool also?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crimping-Tool ... 4602cb3a02

Or maybe it's better to get the official TriCrimp?
question is... How often will you have to do PowerPoles? if you are only going to use it once the official tool is a bit expensive and not really good for anything else.

the tool you show from eBay will do any uninsulated barrel type terminal. and with some practice can make acceptable crimps on PowerPoles. i would recommend buying a dozen or so extra terminals and practice crimping on some sacrificial wire bits until you see something that looks good and cannot be pulled apart.

Ypedal did a nice YouTube video showing how to do good crimps using the "Official" and "Alternative" tools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJTMKSuVI3U

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by dnmun » Jul 21 2012 11:37am

if you think you will have a problem in the future with plugging the connectors in backwards, why not just only use one connector to unplug. leave the black wires connected, and just unplug the red wire. then you can use the same connectors you have now. i don't think you will make this mistake again.

if you have 5V on the hall sensor power, then you can test the hall signals by plugging the 5 pin connector into the motor and while the controller is powered up, measure the voltage on the BGY wires there where they come off the pcb as you slowly rotate the wheel.

the hall sensor lead will toggle up and down, between 0V and about 5V (4.93?).

if the hall sensors toggle, then you can look for the outputs from the microprocessor that goes up to the mosfet driver ICs.

when the hall sensor switches, it causes the microprocessor to switch the phase wire connection through the mosfets. so the mosfets will turn on and off as the wheel slowly rotates as the hall sensors toggle on and off. you will see the three traces from the micro run up to the little surface mount ICs that switch the hiside mosfets, and another three will drive the loside mosfets.

the hiside mosfets are between the battery plus B+, and the phase wire, and loside mosfets are between the phase wire and the battery negative B-. it may take some time to determine which ones, but usually they come off the micro on the 3rd, 4th and 5th pins on the top counting from the left. but that is just guessing and you should be able to see them run up to where the mosfets live.

if nothing else, this is educational, and helps you understand what people are talking about when you read here.

the rapping on the table technique is actually everybodies favorite because it is so easy and the solder sucker is so hard to get right onto the hole while the solder is still molten so i agree with the knock it out method too. but first cut off the legs all the way down to the hole, and remove the mosfet from outa the way so you can get the soldering iron onto the holes. save that insulating layer and the round insulator under the screw. they are critical. BOL.
Last edited by dnmun on Jul 21 2012 4:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Lyen » Jul 21 2012 12:59pm

Hi Cwah,

I just happen to see your post. It is unfortunate to see you plugged in the battery in reverse order. You may want to check if the controller chip is still programmable prior you attempt to work on other issues, you can then avoid spending the unnecessary time & energy which you could have better spend for more beers & parties. :wink:

Regards,
Lyen
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 21 2012 6:07pm

It seems that I can still save data to the chip so we can probably still save it:
Image

Dnmun, I measured the voltage of the BGY wires wheel I was turning the wheel backward and there was something like 20mV coming out of it? Same pattern for all phase wires.

However, the hall sensor lead do not toggle up and down when I turn the wheel forward or backward. Is it bad? Or maybe I measured it wrongly? I did the same thing as before.

I can't see where's the microprocessor outputs and mofset driver ICs?
Image

Image
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 21 2012 6:10pm

rkosiorek wrote:
question is... How often will you have to do PowerPoles? if you are only going to use it once the official tool is a bit expensive and not really good for anything else.

the tool you show from eBay will do any uninsulated barrel type terminal. and with some practice can make acceptable crimps on PowerPoles. i would recommend buying a dozen or so extra terminals and practice crimping on some sacrificial wire bits until you see something that looks good and cannot be pulled apart.

Ypedal did a nice YouTube video showing how to do good crimps using the "Official" and "Alternative" tools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJTMKSuVI3U

rick
Maybe not that often for the powerpole, but I prefer to have solid and strong connection. But I was thinking that the type of short I did wouldn't be avoided by powerpole plug. I didn't reverse the black to the red wire, I plugged my bulk harness incorrectly with my HTX 4mm bullet connectors.
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by dnmun » Jul 21 2012 10:54pm

your micro is ok if it will accept programming.

i think you were measuring the phase wires, i was thinking of the BGY wires next to that red wire on the end for the hall sensor leads.

i just solder the andersons. but the wire cannot be too deep or use very much solder so it doesn't run out onto the clip part. if it builds up it blocks the metal piece from seating when you push it in.

looks like u can try to replace the output mosfets now. amazing the input caps did not short out.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Lyen » Jul 21 2012 11:24pm

Just for my curiosity, how long was the battery wire set plugged in before you disconnect it? The reason I ask it because if you look at the second photo from page 1, you can see that is a copper wire placed/embedded on the circuit board trace. Usually the copper wire takes a long while (in a second or two which is consider long in the electronic world) to have an effect like that.

Since the heart (MCU) of your board is still alive, you may proceed the next troubleshooting step by removing the suspected MOSFET transistors. Make sure you do not damage the holes that stick the MOSFET legs on the circuit board. Do it with patience, a lot of patience, and possibly two 25-30W soldering irons (analog model) if you do not have the Weller (German made) digital soldering irons. :wink:
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Harold in CR » Jul 22 2012 7:21am

Put black color (waterproof Magic Marker, Black nail polish, etc.), on BOTH pieces that the black wires will connect correctly ???

Seems awfully easy to me. :) :)
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 22 2012 8:20am

Ok, so if I can still program the controller, all I have to do now is to replace the mosfet? The Hall leads are fine even if it wasn't going up and down between 0 and 5 V?

I have this soldering kit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Watt-Solde ... _698wt_660

Is it ok?


And why do I need 2 25-30W soldering iron? Can I replace the Weller digital soldering iron by this one? http://www.amazon.co.uk/60W-PROTECTION- ... m_sbs_ce_2


Harold, marker seems to be a good id. Nail polish is even better as it glows :)


Ps: i tried to disconnect it as soon as I've seen smoke coming out of the controller: after 1-2 seconds. Plug was completely melted, even the metal from the plug had a different shape :lol:
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Lyen » Jul 22 2012 3:32pm

Hi Cwah,

The reason for two soldering irons was because I thought you are on budget and not used to pull the three legs with only one iron without overheat the components. If you manage to pull the MOSFET out by tapping on it for two to three seconds then one is enough. You sure can use order brand of irons regardless digital or analog. The soldering tip also do play a big part of the role. :)

Replace the MOSFET does not necessary mean the rest of the components are good. It is just another step to narrow down the issue.

Cheers,
Lyen
cwah wrote:Ok, so if I can still program the controller, all I have to do now is to replace the mosfet? The Hall leads are fine even if it wasn't going up and down between 0 and 5 V?

I have this soldering kit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Watt-Solde ... _698wt_660

Is it ok?


And why do I need 2 25-30W soldering iron? Can I replace the Weller digital soldering iron by this one? http://www.amazon.co.uk/60W-PROTECTION- ... m_sbs_ce_2


Harold, marker seems to be a good id. Nail polish is even better as it glows :)


Ps: i tried to disconnect it as soon as I've seen smoke coming out of the controller: after 1-2 seconds. Plug was completely melted, even the metal from the plug had a different shape :lol:
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cwah   10 GW

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 22 2012 5:49pm

Thanks Lyen,

I was thinking about getting a better soldering iron as this is something super useful for ebike. I'm not sure which one would be the best value for money?

I'm planning to remove the mosfet as described by dnmun: cut the main bit then remove the legs one by one. Should be simpler this way.

Hope the controller will work fine once the mosfet will be replaced.

Cheers


ps: Your 37-110V controller is still working now that it's is fixed. Not sure if I can increase the voltage up to 150V since you modded it to accept 37V?
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Lyen » Jul 22 2012 8:18pm

cwah wrote:Thanks Lyen,

I was thinking about getting a better soldering iron as this is something super useful for ebike. I'm not sure which one would be the best value for money?

I'm planning to remove the mosfet as described by dnmun: cut the main bit then remove the legs one by one. Should be simpler this way.

Hope the controller will work fine once the mosfet will be replaced.

Cheers


ps: Your 37-110V controller is still working now that it's is fixed. Not sure if I can increase the voltage up to 150V since you modded it to accept 37V?
I'm not a good bargain hunter to begin with, you may want to see what you can afford, compare the features, do lots of research and how frequent you use it.

I do not read your post often, you may want to email me if you have questions mate. :)
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by dnmun » Jul 22 2012 11:31pm

what do you use for a soldering iron now? if you have a small 30W fine or even just really narrow tip, then you should be able to heat up the through hole solder, it will be fast, that's why the fancy temp controlled models are so useful. the trick with working on stuff is to think it all out in advance, realize in advance that you will need a place to rap the pcb on when it gets hot, and be able to do it quick, so prepare for that, have good light and space to work so the soldering iron cord doesn't hang up, put the tip on the place on the pcb next to the heatsink where the hole are and it will melt right away so you will have to be holding it in your hand ready to whack it while you are heating it up, not walk across the room and then whack it sorta thing.

this is new for you so it will be frustrating because you are unfamiliar, (just don't overheat the traces on the pcb by holding a hot iron on it for a long time and then pushing the trace with the soldering iron), but just use the tools you have and if you get stuck just ask, you may even want to double check your initial assumption of which mosfet is bad. it is not the same as cutting off the wrong leg, but it is really annoying.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 23 2012 4:38pm

Actually I use quite often the iron to solder wires. But I never use it on board or controller. Overheating wires isn't too much of an issue as I can just cut the bad part or extend it.

I was thinking of a better iron as this is something quite important. But as mine isn't working bad I may keep it.

Any idea where I can buy Mosfet for this 100V controller?
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 27 2012 1:46am

I've found these mosfet on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-PCS-IRFB41 ... 333wt_1199

They are IRFB4110 exactly as the one written on my controller. Can I buy these one to put it on my controller?
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Jeremy Harris   10 GW

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Jeremy Harris » Jul 27 2012 2:04am

cwah wrote:I've found these mosfet on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-PCS-IRFB41 ... 333wt_1199

They are IRFB4110 exactly as the one written on my controller. Can I buy these one to put it on my controller?
They will be fakes. IR only make the IRFB4110 in Mexico, they don't make them in their Chinese plant AFAIK, so unless this seller has imported them from Mexico/USA to China and is then reselling them back to the West at close to the lowest bulk price that IR sell them for (not likely, in my view) then you can be near-enough certain they will be fake.

If you want genuine IRFB4110 FETs, then get them from an accredited supplier. In the UK RS and Farnell are pretty good and deliver quickly.
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by dnmun » Jul 27 2012 2:18am

i don't think that is a real IR part. IR has a slight notch halfway up the tab on each side. i would expect the full IRFB4110 printed on it too. the little round disc spot is lower, right above the drain leg.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 27 2012 2:34am

This seller says his part is genuine:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-genuine-5 ... 1567wt_913

Can I believe him?

Otherwise, any idea which shop in uk/europe would sell it a good price?
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Jeremy Harris   10 GW

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Jeremy Harris » Jul 27 2012 2:51am

cwah wrote:This seller says his part is genuine:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-genuine-5 ... 1567wt_913

Can I believe him?

Otherwise, any idea which shop in uk/europe would sell it a good price?
I could say that I was the genuine Santa Claus on ebay............... :D

As I said before, use Farnell or RS.

RS: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-tr ... s/0495578/

Farnell: http://uk.farnell.com/international-rec ... dp/1436955

You could get them from Digikey or Mouser, but they only pretend to be in the UK and really ship from the USA, with not only a long delay but also duty and VAT charges. I had a major dispute with having to pay VAT twice with Digikey, so won't now deal with them.

Bear in mind that the cheapest you can get these, direct from IR, in large quantities (1000 plus), is around the same as the price that Chinese Ebay seller is trying to flog his fakes for!
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by cwah » Jul 27 2012 3:04am

Thanks Jeremy.

These mosfet are expensive when I only get a few lol.

Do you think I can get money back if I buy 100 on the shop and sell it back at £2.50 in this forum or ebay?
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Re: Reverse polarity with my controller

Post by Jeremy Harris » Jul 27 2012 3:54am

cwah wrote:Thanks Jeremy.

These mosfet are expensive when I only get a few lol.

Do you think I can get money back if I buy 100 on the shop and sell it back at £2.50 in this forum or ebay?
If you want to buy them in quantity cheaper, then get them direct from the manufacturer IR: https://ec.irf.com/v6/en/US/adirect/ir? ... RFB4110PBF at $2.16 each for 1000. Methods has done exactly as you suggest in the past, and bought a large quantity from IR and then sold them on here at a good price, so it certainly is an option. My guess is that you may find some interest in the UK/Europe from such a scheme, as these parts are expensive when you're only buying a handful.
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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