BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

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Ebikebert   100 W

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BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Ebikebert » Dec 16 2012 8:46pm

i really want to know the pros and cons of motors such as the gng direct drive motor or cyclone and the hub style brushless motors such as the macs,ninecontinents,crystalytes ect. i would like to know which setup is more efficient when it comes to wh/m. I would also like to know which one could potantially go faster with less volts. i need some clarification when it comes to the variance in speed of these two hub motors. i dont care as much for acceleration as much as i do top speed since i live in florida where everything is super flat. right now i have my home made li-ion 48v 25ah pack sitting at storage voltage until i can get the perfect motor. i am also not willing to spend much more than 400 on the setup. :D thanks in advance.

magic carpet   100 mW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by magic carpet » Dec 16 2012 10:48pm

I have a new BionX 350 direct drive, hubmotor on a 700c road bike, and a new Epik bb geared drive MT style bike. The hubmotor makes more sense for flat ground like Florida. The Epik, with it's BB and geared drive, is better for climbing hills where the motor can spin at high rpm's with the bike in a low gear. Hubmotors are better for cruising at top speed. Mid-motors are sportier, because of the torque off the line, but require constant gear shifting, much like a ICE motorcycle.
Unless you need to climb a lot of hills, I'd prefer the simplicity of a direct drive hub-motor and the BionX is arguably the best. Otherwise Mercedes Benz wouldn't be shipping them from Canada to Germany where they are installed on the Smart ebike.
I don't think you'll find a BionX for the kind of money you're talking and your battery would not work with it if you did. I paid close to 2 grand for mine as a complete kit and have no complaints. If I already had your battery, I'd go for a Magic Pie III.
Good luck

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by wesnewell » Dec 17 2012 1:26am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Elec ... 0754592384
Get the 48V 1000W model and use your battery with it. Ships from US. I've got over 6000 miles on mine without a problem. Motor is a GM 901 or exact clone.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

kriskros   10 kW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by kriskros » Dec 17 2012 7:50pm

i have a trike with an hs 3540DD and two wheel with a 1200w cyclone running through a Nuvinci hub... the trike has a 26" wheel with a 39,8v,20amp a 123 battery..max speed on the flat 40kph...the two wheeler has a 20" wheel,44v,20amp lipo...max speed 50kph.. a little diference in the battery voltage,but a big difference in wheel diameter :mrgreen:

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Ebikebert   100 W

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Ebikebert » Dec 17 2012 10:35pm

can you put a disk brake rotor on the 901 hub motor thanks

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by wesnewell » Dec 18 2012 2:43am

Ebikebert wrote:can you put a disk brake rotor on the 901 hub motor thanks
GM used to sell a disc brake kit for $25. One of these might be an option too, but I'm not sure.
http://www.scooterpartsdepot.com/web_el ... _6hole.htm
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by dogman dan » Dec 18 2012 7:10am

The recomended kit is just about the best bet for your combination of wanting good speed, but cheap. You do need a faster winding motor for that, and the Yes kit is slightly faster than most. You should see 30 mph with it. Others usually max at 27mph for 48v.

A motor from Grin Cyclery would be easier to install a disk brake on. The screw on disk adapters can be kinda fussy. Can you still put a rim brake on that bike?

As far as efficeincy goes, you just threw that out the window wanting to go fast. In general, the wh/mi is affected mostly by the speed chosen. Some definite difference between motor types is present in some high load conditions like climbing steep hills, with the advantage definitely to bb drive (if the right gear is used). But for cruising 30mph in florida, there would be little advantage in a bb drive. Both will use about the same 800-1000w to cruise 30 mph. Your battery is large, so you would expect a pretty decent range even at 30 mph. I predict about 40wh/mi. Mabye 45 wh/mi, if your battery carry catches the wind a lot.

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Kirk   100 W

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Kirk » Dec 18 2012 1:57pm

I have both the GM Pro 901 and the C'Lyte 3540. The Pro 901 takes a screw on type disc rotor. While the C'Lyte uses a standard disc rotor. No idea how well they work as I don't use a disc brake on the rear. On the flats in FL the efficiencies of a BB or mid drive are negated by their mechanical complexity. If you had hills to climb it would be a different story. A BionX kit works very well in Europe but is better repurposed as a door stop in Canada or the US. Most any 48V 1000W reasonably well built hub motor will serve you well for your stated purpose. My C'Lyte 3540 is a little better motor then my Pro 901 IMHO but you can power both of them to go much faster then you should on a DF.
Stable:
05 Catrike Road (Yellow), 20" 48V 1000W GM hub motor,12s24Ah Lipo batt.
12 Catrike Expedition (Candy Purple), 18s32Ah Lipo batt. Lyen 18 FET low RDS controller, C'Lyte HS3540 hub motor, CA-SA, Mueller Bros. Windwrap XT fairing, Terra Cycle Cargo Monster extension. Still evolving, should be interesting by next Spring.
2011 Roll Over America tour, 50 Velomobiles, 5000 Km, 24 days, Portland, OR-Washington DC, July 28th-August 24th 2011, damn I was tired after that.

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Ebikebert   100 W

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Ebikebert » Dec 18 2012 10:39pm

thanks dogman and kirk for your replies good information, exactly what i needed i have one more question would a 48v li-ion battery be 12s or 13s thanks. :D :)

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Kirk   100 W

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Kirk » Dec 19 2012 12:54am

Ebikebert wrote:thanks dogman and kirk for your replies good information, exactly what i needed i have one more question would a 48v li-ion battery be 12s or 13s thanks. :D :)
A 12s is 44.4V nominal and a 13s is 48.1V nominal. Although the 12s will be around 50.4V hot off of the charger and will take awhile to get down to 48V and your LVC will be around 39V. To be honest with yourself you should think of your battery size as the nominal Voltage. My 18s is 66.6V nominal but will come off of the charger at 75V. If I wanted a true 72V a 20s would be the way for me to go. Hope that helps.
Stable:
05 Catrike Road (Yellow), 20" 48V 1000W GM hub motor,12s24Ah Lipo batt.
12 Catrike Expedition (Candy Purple), 18s32Ah Lipo batt. Lyen 18 FET low RDS controller, C'Lyte HS3540 hub motor, CA-SA, Mueller Bros. Windwrap XT fairing, Terra Cycle Cargo Monster extension. Still evolving, should be interesting by next Spring.
2011 Roll Over America tour, 50 Velomobiles, 5000 Km, 24 days, Portland, OR-Washington DC, July 28th-August 24th 2011, damn I was tired after that.

Blackssr   10 W

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by Blackssr » Dec 21 2012 10:22am

Ebikebert wrote:i really want to know the pros and cons of motors such as the gng direct drive motor or cyclone and the hub style brushless motors such as the macs,ninecontinents,crystalytes ect. i would like to know which setup is more efficient when it comes to wh/m. I would also like to know which one could potantially go faster with less volts. i need some clarification when it comes to the variance in speed of these two hub motors. i dont care as much for acceleration as much as i do top speed since i live in florida where everything is super flat. right now i have my home made li-ion 48v 25ah pack sitting at storage voltage until i can get the perfect motor. i am also not willing to spend much more than 400 on the setup. :D thanks in advance.

I live in Florida and have 2 bikes with the 1000 watt Yescomusa kits. At 48 volts they will go about 28 mph with ease and have plenty of punch. I run disk brakes on front and rear. The adapter can be found here as well as the brakes I used on the rear. I did have to use shims on the rotor to allow for clearence.

http://www.bicycledesigner.com/bike-par ... apter.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TV ... 02_s00_i00

I run 24s2p and easily hit 50 mph on the straights with little effort. At these speeds disk brakes and re gen help slow the bike down quite a bit.
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d8veh   100 GW

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Re: BB Direct drive motor vs. hub style motors

Post by d8veh » Dec 22 2012 7:10am

Ebikebert wrote:i really want to know the pros and cons of motors such as the gng direct drive motor or cyclone and the hub style brushless motors such as the macs,ninecontinents,crystalytes ect. i would like to know which setup is more efficient when it comes to wh/m. I would also like to know which one could potantially go faster with less volts. i need some clarification when it comes to the variance in speed of these two hub motors. i dont care as much for acceleration as much as i do top speed since i live in florida where everything is super flat. right now i have my home made li-ion 48v 25ah pack sitting at storage voltage until i can get the perfect motor. i am also not willing to spend much more than 400 on the setup. :D thanks in advance.
I started on hub motors and then tried both GEN 1 and Gen 2 GNG drives. The main advantage of the GNG is that you can get maximum power at any speed, so in most circumstances, you'd be going faster with a GNG, but using more power than a hub-motorof similar output power. In theory the crank-drive is more efficient, but in practice you use more power, go faster and drain your battery quicker compared with an equivalent hub-motor that's optimised for the speed that you want to go.

I've now gone back to a hub-motor because they're simple, weather resistant and robust. For commuting they're a better option. For off-road, the GNGmight be better because you can change to a low gear for better climbing power. If climbing power is important for you on the road a geared motor like a MAC or Bafang BPM/CST is a good solution (up to 25mph)

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