19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by tobewankenobi » Jan 03 2014 2:25am

very good thread, i ve been thinking about using the frame and suspension from an old mx bike to build an ebike. I wonder thought if the torque is enough when installing the motor in the wheel. How much power can the motor/controller you've installed deliver at 3m/s?

I assume:
Adhesion = 1.0
Weight on backwheel = 100kg
Max effort = 100*9.81*1.0 = 0.98kN
Required power at 3m/s = 0.98*3 = 2.94kW
Wheel diameter = 0.6m
Rpm of wheel at 3m/s = 3/(0.6*pi)*60 = 96rpm
Required torque = 2.94/(96/60*2*pi) = 0.29kNm = 290Nm

Ive found a 3kW motor at eBay but it only produce 92Nm. It means I cannot utlize the adhesion and the wheel is stronger the motor. Is the cromotor stronger, or the 54**?

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Dlogic » Jan 03 2014 10:25am

I´m about to fit some Heidenau tires to my 18 inch excel rims.
For those who like to go for street riding and have so far used the 24 inch Maxxis Hookworms, you might find this information very useful.

1. Tire type Heidenau K65 3.00 - 18 M/C 47S TT
2. Weight is 3200 grams.
3. Max tire load is 175 Kg.
4. Allowed top speed 185 km/h!! :twisted:


--The hookworms at 24 inches weigh 1300 grams. Lighter, but also a lot less sturdy.--


-Possible advantages over the Maxxis Hookworms-

1.The Heidenau tires are super thick when compared to the Maxxis Hookworms and should make flats a thing of the past.
2.The overall outer diameter is just 1cm smaller then a 24 inch Hookworm. So top speed should be more or less the same.
3.At 3 inches wide there´s more surface in contact with the street increasing the feel of control and security. ( See image #3 )
4.Acceleration should be a bit better due to the smaller diameter.

-As soon as front and rear wheel are all laced up, you will get a real life performance review. :-)

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by Dlogic on Jan 03 2014 5:01pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 03 2014 11:41am

Dlogic, I think you have just discovered the best road/pavement option for high powered Ebikes like your custom Bomber influenced Raptor. By the looks of your pics, those tires, they should come in at an inflated 24.3 inches Outer Diameter. Perfect size for hub motor powered machines. 3200 grams is about 5 pounds, more than light enough for ebike applications. Cant wait to see it.

Rick

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Dlogic » Jan 03 2014 11:54am

Hey Rix, i´m really curious myself. :-)

There´s so many tire types plus rims cluttering up my work shop right now. When theses babies arrived this morning my joy could hardly be contained.
Yes, i have a strong feeling that these should finally give the bike what it deserves.
Lacing up the wheels will take time though and the spokes are still on their way.

Got myself all the tools for installing the tire to the rim. This will be the first time for me installing a motorcycle tire. :mrgreen:

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 03 2014 11:57am

tobewankenobi wrote:very good thread, i ve been thinking about using the frame and suspension from an old mx bike to build an ebike. I wonder thought if the torque is enough when installing the motor in the wheel. How much power can the motor/controller you've installed deliver at 3m/s?

I assume:
Adhesion = 1.0
Weight on backwheel = 100kg
Max effort = 100*9.81*1.0 = 0.98kN
Required power at 3m/s = 0.98*3 = 2.94kW
Wheel diameter = 0.6m
Rpm of wheel at 3m/s = 3/(0.6*pi)*60 = 96rpm
Required torque = 2.94/(96/60*2*pi) = 0.29kNm = 290Nm

Ive found a 3kW motor at eBay but it only produce 92Nm. It means I cannot utlize the adhesion and the wheel is stronger the motor. Is the cromotor stronger, or the 54**?
Welcom to the thread. Not sure about your build, but if you want to convert an old MC into a hi powered Ecycle, the 602 and 603 (http://www.enertrac.net/) is a much more robust hub motor than either the Cromotor and 54xx. It can handle 10KW continues, they clame the 20KW continues with the water cooling option. the 5405 I have wieghed around 26.5 pounds, the Cromotor is around 25 pounds, the enertac H603 starts at 33 pounds. 60mm wide stator, Its king of the hubmotors, but too big and wide for any pedal ebike applications.

Rick

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 03 2014 12:09pm

Dlogic wrote:Hey Rix, i´m really curious myself. :-)

There´s so many tire types plus rims cluttering up my work shop right now. When theses babies arrived this morning my joy could hardly be contained.
Yes, i have a strong feeling that these should finally give the bike what it deserves.
Lacing up the wheels will take time though and the spokes are still on their way.

Got myself all the tools for installing the tire to the rim. This will be the first time for me installing a motorcycle tire. :mrgreen:

Have some dish soap and water on hand. As you pry the tire onto the rim, constantly push the tube up and inside the tire where you are prying. And once you got the 2/3 onto the rim, push down on the opposite of where you are pyring to keep the tire off the bead and in the center of the rim. This will make the last portion of the tire you are prying slightly easier to mount. Rembmer to keep pushing the tube up into the tire before each pry to avoid pinching. Its a pain if you haven't done one yet. If you do have some problems, have DH Paule show you. I know he knows. Yah, I have an entire corner in my shop filled with tires, MC rims and stuff. Just look at the bright side, I have enough MC rims for 3 custom builds so I am good to go for future home builds.

Rick

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Dlogic » Jan 03 2014 2:38pm

Thanks Rix, will try myself at first. Gotta learn and get the feel for it. :-)

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by joepah » Jan 03 2014 9:16pm

Dlogic wrote:Thanks Rix, will try myself at first. Gotta learn and get the feel for it. :-)
What tools do you use for MC tires? I'm guessing tire irons aint going get er done..lol.. I put 16" moped tires on a bike rim with parktool levers.. but this looks a whole lot stiffer.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 03 2014 10:47pm

joepah wrote:
Dlogic wrote:Thanks Rix, will try myself at first. Gotta learn and get the feel for it. :-)
What tools do you use for MC tires? I'm guessing tire irons aint going get er done..lol.. I put 16" moped tires on a bike rim with parktool levers.. but this looks a whole lot stiffer.
Joepah, you smell that stink? That stink is you because you are the shit for being able to mount a moped tire with Park tool bicycle tire levers :lol: . I don't know what ply moped tires are. The MC tires I have been testing have all been 4 or 6 ply. Those take patience along with soapy water and longer stronger tire irons. But if you mounted a moped tire with bicycle tire levers, a MC tire will be a cake walk for you.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Dlogic » Jan 04 2014 6:37am

These are the tools that will be used to fit the tire to the rim.
The bucket in the back is a special tire grease. :mrgreen:

Image

-From front to back-

1. Plastic rim protector.
2. Long lever.
3. Spoke adjustment wrench.
4. Two short levers with ring to fix to the spoke and prevent them from popping back up.
5. Tire grease!

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 04 2014 10:48am

Since you have tire grease, forget the soap and water. That's a nice kit right down to the rim protectors. I never use those, I prefer to scratch the crap out of the rim :? :| Tell me more about that spoke wrench.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by GCinDC » Jan 04 2014 12:05pm

tobewankenobi wrote:i ve been thinking about using the frame and suspension from an old mx bike to build an ebike. I wonder thought if the torque is enough when installing the motor in the wheel...
this is a very interesting question. i certainly can't answer it, and while it does seem related to this thread, you might be better off asking the question or browsing these forums for answers:
E-Scooter and Motorcycle General Discussion
E-Scooter and Motorcycle Photos & Videos
my general sense is that the more powerful electric motorcycles don't use hub motors....

good luck, and i'll be interested to see what you do with the build!
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by LSBW » Jan 04 2014 1:59pm

Received my 18" Michelin's last nite.
Installed it in 2 minutes, using this tool and some elbow grease.

Hmm


Image

My 16" Pirelli's went on my rims without any aide last year.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by MitchJi » Jan 04 2014 5:08pm

Hi,

What do the various size numbers mean? Can they be used to determine either precisely or ballpark the width and diameter of a tire?

It looks like the "3.00" below means 3 inches wide. Is there a way to determine the diameter of the tire from the listed numbers? What does the "47S" mean?
Dlogic wrote:I´m about to fit some Heidenau tires to my 18 inch excel rims. For those who like to go for street riding and have so far used the 24 inch Maxxis Hookworms, you might find this information very useful.

1. Tire type Heidenau K65 3.00 - 18 M/C 47S TT

2.The overall outer diameter is just 1cm smaller then a 24 inch Hookworm.

3. At 3 inches wide...
Some other K65 listings from the heidenautires site:
http://heidenautires.com/motorcycle-street-tires/
heidenautires.com/motorcycle-street-tires wrote: 130/90 B 16 M/C 73H TL
100/90 – 18 M/C 56H TL
110/80 – 18 M/C 60H TL
120/90 – 18 M/C 71H TL
90/90 – 19 M/C 52H TL
100/90 – 19 M/C 57H TL
MH 90 – 21 M/C 54H TL
150/80 B 16 M/C 71H TL
What do the first column of numbers mean (e.g. 100/90) the 100 and the 90?

A hint but not enough for me to determine which number means what:
http://heidenautires.com/dual-sport-tires/
Image

What does the MH (MH 90) mean?

Does the second to last column on the right (e.g. 71H) have anything to do with size?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by fechter » Jan 04 2014 5:30pm

You need Motorcycle Tire School!

Scroll down a ways to see a size conversion chart.
http://www.maxxis.com/MotorcycleATV/Mot ... chool.aspx
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by GCinDC » Jan 04 2014 5:38pm

MitchJi wrote:What do the first column of numbers mean (e.g. 100/90) the 100 and the 90?
Image
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by MitchJi » Jan 04 2014 5:58pm

Hi,

So for this size:
70/100x19

The overall tire diameter is 19" + 70mm (100% of 70mm) x 2 (height x 2 [each side of the rim])?

In other words the overall tire diameter is 19" + 140mm (5.5 inches) or about 24.5"?

Thanks!
Best Wishes!

Mitch


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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 04 2014 6:57pm

LSBW wrote:Received my 18" Michelin's last nite.
Installed it in 2 minutes, using this tool and some elbow grease.

Hmm

Image

My 16" Pirelli's went on my rims without any aide last year.
It official, I am feeling like an amateur. :cry:

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 04 2014 9:58pm

MitchJi wrote:Hi,

So for this size:
70/100x19

The overall tire diameter is 19" + 70mm (100% of 70mm) x 2 (height x 2 [each side of the rim])?

In other words the overall tire diameter is 19" + 140mm (5.5 inches) or about 24.5"?

Thanks!
My Bridgestone M40310/100x19 came in at just under 25". Not that thats much different than 24.5. If you go this route, you will like it.

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by GCinDC » Jan 05 2014 8:28am

LSBW wrote:Received my 18" Michelin's last nite. Installed it in 2 minutes, using this tool and some elbow grease. Hmm
i hope you didn't warp the wheel doing so!

granted my wheels are aluminum, but i had expected them to be super stiff, but was very surprised how much they shift w/ spoke adjustments, etc, like much thinner bicycle wheels.

here's my diy tire lever - an old axle with an end I shaped like a lever, nice and soft at the end not to pierce the rubber:
Image

levers are amazing simple machines! the increased length requires less and less elbow grease... :P
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Kent » Jan 05 2014 6:27pm

Great topic. For those considering 19" but find there isn't enough frame width for a 2.75 or 3", there still is the 19"x 2.50. It fits nicely on a 1.4 rim:
2.50 closeup.jpg
2" contact and 1/2" shoulder each side at 30 psi
2.50 closeup.jpg (146.29 KiB) Viewed 3913 times
Its like $30 and is DOT rated, when they have it:
treatland tire.jpg
The only place I could find for this size
treatland tire.jpg (33.42 KiB) Viewed 3913 times
They also have 19 x 2.00 and 19 x 2.25
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by stinkler » Jan 07 2014 3:33am

Why do I find these posts After I spend all my money on fixing flats and wearing out tires :cry:
I just wrecked my conhis motor and got an hs3540 kit from ebikes.ca and the rim came all messed up.
shipping damage maybe? No biggie it happens not even going to bug him.
I am going to take a crack at lacing up a ebay 19" prowheel mc rim (the one in the first post)and running some of those shinko 244's.

has anyone used the Holmes-Custom-Moped-Spokes?
do they need washers? and what length do I need?
There are a few different numbers showing up in this thread for ERD etc on that rim.
I don't want to order the wrong stuff.
wheel building witchcraft!

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by GCinDC » Jan 07 2014 6:26am

stinkler wrote:...19" prowheel mc rim ...has anyone used the Holmes-Custom-Moped-Spokes? do they need washers?
yes, for a prowheel/MC rim, you'll need washers.

however if you get a moped rim, you should not need the washers. for a 17" rim, check out: Holmes MMP 17x1.6 Ebike Hubmotor Rim where in the description, it says "Our "Moped" spoke have proper nipples for these rims."
stinkler wrote:and what length do I need? There are a few different numbers showing up in this thread for ERD etc on that rim.
JRH told me himself the ERD is 460mm, IF no dishing is required. (my wheel had to be dished a lot and my spokes came up short because i didn't adjust accordingly)

as for the length of spokes, that will depend on your motor. from the 1st post pic, i selected the motor type on the ebikes.ca spoke calculator and added the ERD, however i did not use the proper flange spacing for the h40 motor!:
Image
So be careful! What motor do you have?

IMO, where there's lots of pride to gain in building your own wheel, you pretty much have to count on messing up your first one, which is what i did. if you're willing to take that risk, don't hesitate to try yourself. but if you just want to drive your super ebike, and you want a perfect wheel that's gonna last forever, you should farm it out. JRH built them himself for ages as a side project but has since spun off (pardon the pun :P ) Voltriders. Their telephone number is also in the first post of this thread: Custom 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 gauge spokes and Handbuilt Wheels. if you decide to farm it out, you can send the motor and the rim (or buy one of his 17", 18" wheels) and they'll do all the rest. They are not the only ones who do this, but are the only ones I know of.

going DIY route, i'd always thought i could take it to a shop to get fixed, but was told that once the rim gets flat spots, it's VERY difficult to fix, and is a much bigger issue than side to side true. i'm on my third MC wheel build now and tried counting the thread turns on each nipple - since that would have to result in a good start at true - but despite my efforts, i may have flattened the rim in spots. i'll be trying again with spokes of the proper length soon, so we'll see.
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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by Rix » Jan 07 2014 8:53am

stinkler wrote:Why do I find these posts After I spend all my money on fixing flats and wearing out tires :cry:
I just wrecked my conhis motor and got an hs3540 kit from ebikes.ca and the rim came all messed up.
shipping damage maybe? No biggie it happens not even going to bug him.
I am going to take a crack at lacing up a ebay 19" prowheel mc rim (the one in the first post)and running some of those shinko 244's.

has anyone used the Holmes-Custom-Moped-Spokes?
do they need washers? and what length do I need?
There are a few different numbers showing up in this thread for ERD etc on that rim.
I don't want to order the wrong stuff.
wheel building witchcraft!
Based on the ERD in the spoke calculator, and as I recently learned, the spoke calculator is computed with the Prowheel racing 19x1.85 rim. I am going to be running a 18x1.85 on my 5405 when I get it, but for a 3540, you might be better off going with the Prohweel racing 19x1.4 rim with 36 hole drill, specifically their Yamaha Playbike rims. Of course ERD will vary between 469 and 475mm depending on which spoke nipples you measure the ERD with. This rim weighs about 1.25 pounds about (1/2kg) less than the 19x1.85 rim. Not huge, but for a 3540, you may want to considered every advantage you can get, especially if you will save a few dollars in the process. Just food for thought. Either way, you will like it much better than the bicycle option in terms of durability, flatting protection, and tire life.

Rick

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Re: 19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tir

Post by stinkler » Jan 07 2014 3:12pm

I have a hs3540 so it says I need 126.4 mm spokes in the calc.
But is that 126mm plus the nipple length?
Hmm looks like I'm running the same setup as your giant dh gcindc (great vids by the way :P ).
What length did you use?
Did you use the jrh moped spokes?

I think I just need to get a rim and order 4 spokes/nipples to get all my numbers figured out.

That 19x1.40 with a shinko 241 looks like a winner for my setup.

Thanks for all the info guys. Best community.
Man I can't wait to get this going! 4ply dot rated so nice.

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