Xiongda 2-speed motor

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Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:18 am

I opened one up today, and this is what I found:

It opend like a Q100. You remove one of the three screws and replace it with a cap-head screw and washer, then you can lever it round counter-clockwise with a wrench.

Image

Inside, it's nearly the same as a Q100. It has two-stage planetary gear reduction. I'll give all the gear ratios later.

Image

Image

The plate only holds the gears. the clutch is in the outer cover, which is the clever bit, because it has a double clutch in it.

Image

When the motor turns one way, the inner gear s locked to the side-plate, so it turns it directly. The outer ring-gear has another clutch, so it's disengaged. When the motor turns the other way, the inner gear is released from the plate and the outer gear engages to turn the plate in the same direction, but with a lower ratio. The planetary gears are turning the ring gear and inner gear all the time, but only one engages with the side-plate in each direction. The difference in ratios is the difference between the number of teeth on the inner and outer gears. There's no reason that this simple mechanism can't be scaled up for a more powerful motor.

Image

The motor looks very well made inside. There's a magnet behind the disc fixing, which gives the speed of the motor through an additional hall sensor (hiding behind the axle in the photo below).

Image

Image
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby spinningmagnets » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:16 am

Awesome, thanks!

"2-speed motor" 5 pages
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58490

Also, wrote an article about these, thanks to d8veh for the info and pics

http://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:25 am

20 magnets
18 stator poles
Magnet size 20 x 14.4 x 3.5mm
Lams 0.5mm
stator lam width 20mm
Stator dia 90mm
Final gears 30T.54T composite
Planetary gears 12T steel, 32T composite
Rotor gear 18T steel (I forgot to count the teeth on that one. That's the best I can count from the photo).
Spoke hole PCD 120mm
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby Drunkskunk » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:13 pm

Thats pretty darn cool. this would be perfect for a low power, low weight build.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby z50king » Thu May 01, 2014 4:33 pm

Even with the pictures, I am having trouble seeing how it works. Can you make a video of it turning in each direction?

such confuse
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby Miles » Thu May 01, 2014 4:46 pm

z50king wrote:Even with the pictures, I am having trouble seeing how it works.

This might help:
viewtopic.php?p=875982#p875982
viewtopic.php?p=876201#p876201
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Fri May 02, 2014 4:31 am

It's pretty simple really. The planetary gears are permanently engaged with both the inner gear and outer ring-gear on the side-plate, so those two gears rotate in opposite directions.They each have a ratchet (clutch) that drives the side-plate in the forward direction, so when the motor turns in one direction,the ring gear drives the side-plate, and in the other direction, the inner gear drives it. The side-plate is only engaged with those gears by the ratchet. The mechanism is a stroke of genius - so simple and logical.

it's not possible to show by video because the side-plate has to be assembled for it to work. Look at this photo. The yellow circle represents a planetary gear and the red and orange arrows its two directions of rotation. In the red direction, it turns the inner gear forward and the outer gear's clutch slips. Int he orange direction it turns the outer gear forward and the inner gear's clutch slips.

Image
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby Miles » Fri May 02, 2014 4:50 am

It's interesting to note that the very first changeable gear system (Barberon and Meunier 1869) was a retro-direct type. Most permutations of the concept were explored in the first decade of the 20thC., particularly in France.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby mvly » Fri May 02, 2014 1:10 pm

So I am assuming this cannot be changed on the fly? i.e. can you change gear on the fly while it's being driven by the motor?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby teslanv » Fri May 02, 2014 1:21 pm

Pricing and suppliers?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby z50king » Fri May 02, 2014 1:22 pm

I don't think it really changes gears, it just rotates the motor the other way
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Sat May 03, 2014 4:45 am

mvly wrote:So I am assuming this cannot be changed on the fly? i.e. can you change gear on the fly while it's being driven by the motor?

Of course it can. That's the whole point of it. It's fully automatic.

The controller measures the current via the shunt as normal and the speed from a hall sensor, which is also fairly normal. There's an additional software routine in the otherwise standard controller that when the motor slows down and the current goes up, it reverses direction to engage the low gear. When the speed increases and the current goes down, it reverses again to engage the high gear.

It's so simple and effective. It works perfectly.

There's a manual over-ride switch, so that you can fix high or low gear. The gear-change takes about half a second, so it's better to manually engage low gear before you start a very steep climb.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby teslanv » Sat May 03, 2014 6:31 am

So you have to use their proprietary controller then?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Sun May 04, 2014 5:29 am

teslanv wrote:So you have to use their proprietary controller then?


Yes, or any one that has a jumper loop for reversing the direction.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby z50king » Sun May 04, 2014 12:47 pm

I still don't completely understand it. Are those planetary gears one piece? Like one of the big gears on one side is connected to the small gear on the other side? And are each of those plant gears freewheeled, or clutched? I see how that would work, except it wouldn't spin forward if the motor is reversed?

I can't understand those schematic drawings that were linked, either. I don't even see a motor in there

I think I am still confused. I have been trying to draw this all week to see how it worked :/
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby teslanv » Sun May 04, 2014 12:52 pm

Also trying to understand the design...

So does the internal gearing only get used in the low-gear, and then the internal gearing is fixed and the motor works more like a Direct Drive in high gear?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Mon May 05, 2014 4:34 am

No. The planetary gears are permanently engaged with the inner output gear and the ring output gears, which turn in opposite directions and at different speeds.

In low gear setting, the ring gear's clutch engages and the inner gear's clutch disengages, so it's exactly like a normal geared hub-motor.

In high gear setting, the motor reverses direction, and hence the planetary gears rotate in the opposite direction, so the ring gear's clutch lets go and the inner gear's clutch engages. The inner gear rotates in the opposite direction to the ring gear, so with the motor rotating the opposite way, the output drive is still forward.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby sanzo » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:55 pm

d8veh wrote:No. The planetary gears are permanently engaged with the inner output gear and the ring output gears, which turn in opposite directions and at different speeds.

In low gear setting, the ring gear's clutch engages and the inner gear's clutch disengages, so it's exactly like a normal geared hub-motor.

In high gear setting, the motor reverses direction, and hence the planetary gears rotate in the opposite direction, so the ring gear's clutch lets go and the inner gear's clutch engages. The inner gear rotates in the opposite direction to the ring gear, so with the motor rotating the opposite way, the output drive is still forward.



Hi,
I read your articles.

Have you ever ride a this double speed motor??

I watched the video in the YOUTUBE.



Slope is 27degree. Is it correct??

I wander hill claiming ablity this motor.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby o00scorpion00o » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:18 am

27 degree according to the youtube vid ?

What grade is that ? it looks steep enough.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby Drunkskunk » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:31 am

27 degrees would be 51% grade, although they were pedaling and riding a switchback pattern across it.
Anyone could pedal that with low enough gears, so it's imposable to say how much the motor helped, or how close it got to total melt down. It makes a nice sales video. A more useful video would have shown the rider not pedaling, and shown what the motor alone could actually do.

Sadly, the video proves nothing. Still, cool motor.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby Tench » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:27 pm

I had been looking into building a legal pedal assist 26" mtb and pretty much decided on the Bafang BBS01 with a slight reservation because of having to shut off for gear shifting. This little 2 speed motor could be an alternative choice as it offers a 1.8:1 reduction for climbing with no consideration to the gears needed by the rider. I am aware there is a momentary pause in the power delivery but the pedals can keep driving unlike the BBS01.

Does anyone have experience of riding both systems to offer their opinion?

I would imagine to someone inexperienced on an ebike but an experienced mtb rider this would be simpler than the BBS01?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby o00scorpion00o » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:43 pm

Drunkskunk wrote:27 degrees would be 51% grade, although they were pedaling and riding a switchback pattern across it.
Anyone could pedal that with low enough gears, so it's imposable to say how much the motor helped, or how close it got to total melt down. It makes a nice sales video. A more useful video would have shown the rider not pedaling, and shown what the motor alone could actually do.

Sadly, the video proves nothing. Still, cool motor.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html


51% ? that's a hell of a lot of hill.

Anyone know what watts is normally ran into this motor ?
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:38 am

I weigh 100kg and I can't pedal too hard. I managed to get up Lincon Hill in Ironbridge, which at it's steepest is over 30%. My friend was with me on his 30 amp BPM. He melted the phase wires in his controller before he got to the top, but he was going slow to stay with me. I had too pedal quite hard on the steepest bit, and I've soldered the shunt in my controller to increase the current to 20 amps, which gives quite a lot more torque than standard.

Those light Chinese guys would have no problem pedalling up a 27% hill with the standard Xiongda system. You need low gearing so that you can help the motor because it still makes good torque at very low speed - like 3mph. It's more like a crank-drive in bottom gear than a hub-motor.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby o00scorpion00o » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:43 am

20 amps is still more than a crank drive such as Bosch, the advantage of the crank drive, you can adjust the gearing and can now even get a cassette 11-42 and a 42 on the front will mean good speed on the flat with wall climbing capability.

The advantage of the hub and Xiongda over the Bosch is the ability to use a throttle for anyone with weaker legs. The Bosch makes you put the effort in. The more you put in it puts in.
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Re: Xiongda 2-speed motor

Postby d8veh » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:48 pm

Here's a better photo of the double clutch:

Image
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