The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by GmagNeato » Dec 09 2015 9:48pm

I greatly appreciate you checking that. Sounds like the combo would be a perfect fit for 2.5" tire. I may look at moped tires that size, as I'd like to go as wide as my frame will allow.
1st build: (commuter conversion) Novara HT / DIY 15s7p Panasonic NCRB's (harvested from used laptop packs) / 40a generic Chinese controller / 1500w 5T Leaf motor (STOCK)

2nd build: EEB frame / 20s4p of 7200mah Turnigy Hard Case Packs, 74v nominal, 28.8ah, 2131wh / Adaptto Max-E (9G4 firmware currently) + BMS + 70a Charge Coil onboard / QS 205 V3 Extra 5T

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Jan 23 2016 2:11am

1. Count the number of times it takes for a nipple to screw right through the nipple. Divide this number up when periodically moving around the rim to tighten up. It is the number of turns to aim for when starting off the rim to take up all the slack without creating an egg.

2. Determine the ideal tension by checking the rim manufacturer and spoke manufacturers websites for maximum tolerances and periodically check the tension when getting up the aforementioned maximum number of turns. This ensures the ideal tension is reached consistently around the rim.

Both of these speed up the build. 8)


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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Mar 30 2016 12:56pm

Dang!
You guys broke the Holmes spoke machine.../cry.
No more custom spokes.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ykick » Mar 30 2016 1:57pm

Paladin wrote:Dang!
You guys broke the Holmes spoke machine.../cry.
No more custom spokes.
Danscomp
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 30 2016 2:04pm

Yeah, call Danscomp. They have lots of spoke options that are not listed on their website.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Avitt » Apr 05 2016 5:15pm

I'd like to thank the contributors to this thread for encouraging me to take on wheelbuilding. I've just completed my first set: Velocity Chukker rims with a Nexus 3 hub, which I plan to use on a BBS02 city bike build for my wife.

Image

I made the truing stand from 80/20 extruded aluminum. It wasn't the cheapest option, but was far less than a commercial stand with the same capability.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 05 2016 6:54pm

Well done! you might consider altering it to make it fold flat when not in use...just a thought.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by LSBW » Apr 05 2016 8:36pm

3 years and 9000 km later my bike is completely trouble free.
16" moto rims and Pirelli's, no flats, no broken spokes, nothing.
Very glad I've decided to overbuild it.
My first wheel building job.

0001.jpg
Front 16 x 2.5.jpg
Cromotor assembly 31.6 lbs.jpg
Cromotor assembly 31.6 lbs.jpg (164.93 KiB) Viewed 1862 times

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 05 2016 9:14pm

Avitt wrote: I made the truing stand from 80/20 extruded aluminum.
What are the gauges called, where do I get them from and are they expensive? looks like an excellent set up there.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Avitt » Apr 05 2016 10:17pm

Lurkin wrote:
Avitt wrote: I made the truing stand from 80/20 extruded aluminum.
What are the gauges called, where do I get them from and are they expensive? looks like an excellent set up there.
They're called dial indicators. I use the Mitutoyo brand, which I purchased from eBay for about $35 each. There are less expensive models available. I also bought the magnetic base and various other accessories on eBay.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Apr 05 2016 11:46pm

Avitt wrote:
Lurkin wrote:What are the gauges called, where do I get them from and are they expensive? looks like an excellent set up there.
They're called dial indicators. I use the Mitutoyo brand, which I purchased from eBay for about $35 each. There are less expensive models available. I also bought the magnetic base and various other accessories on eBay.
To be a little more specific, you want to look for dial travel indicators, that have .500 to 1.000 inches of range on a telescoping probe.

The other common kind of dial indicator is called a test indicator, with a stylus that tilts around a pivot to take a measurement. That kind doesn't have enough physical range to be useful for wheel building.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Apr 11 2016 9:56pm

Whats a good angle then 45-55 degrees?
by Chalo » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:51 pm
The point with a wheel is not to make the spoke more tangential to the hub, but to have an effective lever arm radius at which the spoke is tangent. Once an adequate lever arm is established, other factors such as spoke insertion angle must also be accommodated.

When lacing an old fashioned rear hub with a 41mm flange diameter, of course more tangential lacing is better-- because the longest lever you have available is only about 20mm.

With a large diameter hub motor, the radius at the spoke tangent (even with cross-one lacing) is much bigger than that, so fractional-cross lacing makes sense, especially when it allows more reasonable insertion angles.

Crossed/interlaced spoking doesn't provide better lateral bracing than non-crossed spoking unless the uncrossed spokes are laced all inside the flange (reducing bracing angle). If the spokes are laced all outside the flange, then the lateral bracing of the wheel is slightly improved compared to traditional alternating lacing.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Postby justin_le » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:11 pm
+1 a million times over to everything that Chalo just said.

Crossing spokes does not make your wheel "strong" or or add anything in terms of stiffness to the wheel. For the best lateral strength, you can have all the spokes laced outside the flange (ie. heads on the inside) to increase the triangulation, and only cross the spoke as necessary to get an adequate lever arm effect for transmitting the motor torque to the rim. In almost all cases with hub motors, that means single cross on evenly spaced flange holes, and no cross for paired spoke holes that have an intrinsic offset in them.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Apr 12 2016 10:04am

markz wrote:Whats a good angle then 45-55 degrees?
Ideally, use a lacing pattern in which the spoke line, if extended, would pass about one inch from the axle center. If you do that, you won't have to worry about torque reaction or insertion angle.

This is a fun online toy: http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/wheelCAD.html
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Apr 12 2016 4:12pm

I used ebikes.ca spoke calculator and it mentions info on angle.
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html
Cross Pattern: Most hub motors are laced with a single cross pattern. There is no point at all in having 2 or more crosses with the large flange diameters of most hub motors, and doing so will usually result the spoke entering the rim at a very difficult angle. Small geared hubs can be laced into large diameter (>26") rims with a double cross pattern OK, and large direct drive motors in small (<=20") rims usually can only be laced radially with 0 cross. If you have a motor with paired spoke holes, then a 0 cross pattern still has a spoke angle for transmitting torque, and there is no need for even single crossing the spokes.
Spoke Angle: This is the angle between the spoke and the tangent line of the rim. Generally speaking, if the angle is more than 80 degrees then it can be laced with relative ease. If the angle is less than 75 degrees, then the spoke nipples will have some difficulty in angling in the same direction as the spokes, and you may need to either put a bend in the spoke so that it enters the rim a bit more radially, or drill out the rim holes slightly larger so that the nipples have more freedom to pivot. Angles less than about 70 degrees are quite problematic and best avoided.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 12 2016 9:25pm

It would probably be an idea to put a spoke through your wheel and measure the comfortable angles. Note extreme angles are not possible without drilling on some bike rims, because they have insufficient angle of the spoke hole itself - you don't really have this problem because your rim already has that angle on the eyelet, judging from the photos you have posted.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Apr 12 2016 11:11pm

Thats the great news on moto rims, is the holes in the rim are dished to accept a wider angle. I will probably tape some sheets together, lay the rim down, take a square and mark it then measure it. I have no spokes, I cut them all with a dremel.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 13 2016 12:09am

? What happened to the ones which were in it when you bought it? If the hub motor is the same size or smaller and you were willing to risk it - you could reuse those?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Apr 13 2016 2:53am

I did not want to waste time unscrewing rusty nipples when I did not have a proper huge motorcycle tool, and saw my rotary tool so I cut them. The motorcycle axle was about small about 8" so I cant reuse the spokes. I saved the cut spokes, so I can still do that method. I used the paper method and got 390mm. I taped two sheets of computer paper, layed the rim down on it, took a level to between the two spokes and marked, then counted over 18 did the same. Measured. Realize that the nipple hole on the rim is pushed in a bit because its a MC rim. I will find 2 straight cut spokes and figure out how to measure it properly.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1174165

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 13 2016 6:33am

The description of how to measure ERD, reliably, is in the other thread as well. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1174037

It would have been ideal to keep the least rusty spokes with their nipples for this purpose, even if they were wrestled off with an adjustable wrench or similar - you need the nipple on the end to do this properly.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by LewTwo » Apr 13 2016 6:36am

Avitt wrote:I made the truing stand from 80/20 extruded aluminum. It wasn't the cheapest option, but was far less than a commercial stand with the same capability.
I did that as well ...
KW-Stand-0(smaller).JPG
KW-Stand-0(smaller).JPG (58.87 KiB) Viewed 2605 times
I have the DWG file and parts list if anyone is interested.


.... what pray tell are the screw drivers that are tie wrapped to the top for ?
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 13 2016 6:47am

I'd appreciate if you could either attach it or PM it to me if possible?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Avitt » Apr 13 2016 2:53pm

LewTwo wrote: I did that as well ...

.... what pray tell are the screw drivers that are tie wrapped to the top for ?
Nice! Beefy. I like the way you've anchored the dial indicator to the base.

I'm just using the top of my stand for tool storage (with a tie-wraps to keep the screwdrivers from falling out of the slots).

The screwdrivers are customized for wheel building:

Image
Image
Image
Image

...I use that last one the most. It's self centering, and is useful to quickly apply the initial tension, without the need to count turns.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by LewTwo » Apr 13 2016 3:33pm

Avitt wrote: Nice! Beefy. I like the way you've anchored the dial indicator to the base.
I just happened to have that piece available. I also started without dial indicators --- just using rounded off bolts as 'indicators'. The anchor for the indicator turned out to be a bit too close to the columns (a work in progress). I actually prefer your approach with the magnetic base.
Avitt wrote: I'm just using the top of my stand for tool storage (with a tie-wraps to keep the screwdrivers from falling out of the slots).
Very organized.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Apr 14 2016 12:22am

I hillbilly measured my ERD. I took some cut spokes and spun the nipples on them so they were flush, used some masking tape to fill in the gap, pulled it very tight and folded the tape (sticky side to sticky side) into itself. Then with a marker I marked out with my digital meter 100mm on both ends, then 50mm both ends, so 300mm total, then measured the gap and added the spokes. The rim is too small to expand the meter out all the way. I will do it multiple times that way and tape measure gets it ball park. Do I count 18 from the next spoke, or count 18 including spoke?

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