The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 05 2015 7:08am

NeilP wrote:Out of interest did you calculate accurate lengths from spoke angles for each different spoke length or just use 'generic' near enough figures.

...

What 9C motor is it? what is the spoke hole circle diameter and spoke hole diameter.
I have the ERD of the rim as 406mm
The hub appears to match the “NineCont front” dimensions from the Grin calculator - the spoke circle diameter is 233 mm. As for the rim, 406 is actually the bead diameter; ERD is 394 mm according to this chart (PDF).

From these numbers, for the first pattern I calculate these lengths and their corresponding angles from normal to the rim:

80.6 1.8
81.1 5.4
83.8 12.2

For the second pattern, there’s a 4th spoke length and angle for the “V” spokes:

82.2 8.9

I ordered 82 for the two shorter lengths and 85 for the two longer lengths.

Your idea of crossing the most parallel spokes in these patterns looks good - basically it changes the shortest length and angle to the longest. (80.6 mm, 1.8 deg -> 83.8 mm, 12.2 deg)

Image

I was avoiding something like this because of the offset spoke holes, but the offset looks minimal so it’s probably not an issue:

Image

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 05 2015 7:33am

Ah,
Yet another variation.
On that pattern you still have single 'radial' spokes, not that it matters, and maybe the picture i had in my head would not work, but I was thinking of a pattern where you have no single 'radial' spokes, and all are crossed

Now I have dimensions I'll have a play later tonight and see what I come up with
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 05 2015 8:39am

The “radial” spokes in the last pattern actually have an angle of 5.4 deg, which I think is reasonable for torque transfer. If you look at the picture and mentally extrapolate the spoke toward the center, and imagine it laced to a normal bike hub, it looks something like you’d expect a normal bike wheel to look like.

Interested to see what you have in mind!

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 05 2015 9:11am

Stll in the wrong place, wrong computer to show you..but look at your last pattern. you seem to have spokes next to each other on those new crosses, pullin 'across//..red to green.

I always try and picture just one side. at a time, then rotate that pattern 90 degress for the other side.

What i was thinking , might have resulted in 'gaps' / unequal rim spoke spacing.

Building BMS wiring to 16 series headway cell pack now..so want to concentrate on that first
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 05 2015 12:55pm

No, I can't even work out your plan in the way I work thing s out, I can even make a spoke pattern that works...good luck I give up
:cry:
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 05 2015 2:11pm

No problem, thanks for giving it some thought - when the parts arrive we'll see if this is too crazy to work in the real world. :)

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 05 2015 2:21pm

How many degrees offset do you have the outer holes in relation to the inner? 3.25?
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 05 2015 4:10pm

It varies as you go around the circle, of course, but the smallest offset is 1.25 deg. Basically, I started with a pair of holes aligned radially, then rotated each circle CCW by half a hole. For the hub, half a hole is 360/36/2 = 5 deg, and for the rim, it’s 360/48/2 = 3.75 deg, so the difference is 1.25 deg.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 05 2015 7:38pm

Ok, I put the question badly. If you started with a oaor aligned radially then that is the rim itself at 0
Degree offset..

I could create a half side pattern that appeared suitable , but could then not transope that same pattern to the other side with say a 33 or 90 degree rotation.

I then tried with the first pair of holes 7.5 degree offset,,, which of course =

I then mentally divided 7.5 /2 and got 3.25. Doh. That did not work. As you correctly point out, if should bd 3.75.


What program do you use? I had tried Google Sketchup. But being a 3D app is a PITA to use for a 2D drawing
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 05 2015 9:57pm

I'm using Scipy, which isn't CAD, it's sort of an open-source Matlab-style numerical analysis and graphing language.

If you can post your half-side pattern, I could see what you have in mind, even if it isn't the whole wheel. Thanks!

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by NeilP » Sep 06 2015 12:19am

Ok, when I get out of bed, get the coffee on etc.
Not sure it will help. It was just going to end up much the same as yours, 6 groups of 3 almost radial spokes with 6 gaps

When working weird patterns I have always startrd most basic and then increased complexity.

I'll send a PM to someone else who is good at this, see if he will chip in.

Edit
this is where I started...but totally unsuitable I can't see hot to 'rotate ' it for the other side .

Normally I can 'see a pattern' in my mind and get on with it and tinker and have weird pattern down on an hour or so..this time...brain block
Untitled.jpg
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 06 2015 11:58am

NeilP wrote:this is where I started...but totally unsuitable I can't see hot to 'rotate ' it for the other side .
Yeah, it looks like it’s not possible to rotate this for the other side, because you have radial spokes, but on the other side there’s no place where the holes line up radially - you’d actually have to have a different pattern on the other side. Not that that’s out of the question, of course - something has to be a little weird.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cycborg » Sep 11 2015 5:55pm

Well, here it is. This was my first wheel build, so I can’t say whether it was any more or less tricky than anything else, but it seemed to be pretty straightforward. The spokes in the "X" pairs are bent a little bit; time will tell whether this is a problem.

Image

Unfortunately, I ordered the spokes too long. They all probably could have been 2 mm shorter, but for most of them this isn’t a problem since they don’t stick out through the outer wall. However, I ordered spokes based on my original configuration with six “X” pairs, but I subsequently decided to use the variation in which I uncrossed half of the “X” pairs to make “V” pairs. The “V” distance is shorter than the “X” distance, so these spokes are way too long and they do extend above the outer wall. I’m going to try grinding them down. Worst case, I’ll need to re-order those 6 spokes, loosen the whole assembly, replace those spokes, and retension/retrue.

Image

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by amberwolf » Sep 12 2015 2:02am

cycborg wrote: The spokes in the "X" pairs are bent a little bit; time will tell whether this is a problem.
They're not bent anywhere near as much as the ones I did at Justin's suggestion for a half-radial half-1x 20" HSR3548 wheel, which did have problems eventually (cant' remember how long).
so these spokes are way too long and they do extend above the outer wall. I’m going to try grinding them down.
When I relaced that wheel as pure radial, I ended up with spokes too long and grinding them worked fine, so far. Has been on CrazyBike2's rear wheel with lots of abuse and no issues with those yet.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 18 2015 6:25pm

How well would two cross work with a muxus 3,000 and an alxe 26 dm24 for the street.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 18 2015 8:44pm

I'm certain the spoke angle would weaken the spokes where they insert into the nipple. I would recommend using a one-cross on a 1.6-inch wide X 19-inch moped rim, like the aluminum Holmes MMP

https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims ... hubmotors/

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 18 2015 11:44pm

Yes love but need brakes on an old comoly frame ect. Limits, like rear brakes. Plus ghetto costs too. Still need to live... eat.
I would get ? Rent , food.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by littleskull99 » Sep 19 2015 3:29am

I built my first wheel a few days ago. What a great feeling. I no longer have to rely on someone elseImage.ImageImage

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 19 2015 10:35am

I was told two cross is much stronger than one cross I'm just worried about more angle at the nipple making more stress at the nipple for the spoke.
Littleskull99 is that a two cross build ? Nice.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Hurly64 » Sep 19 2015 4:27pm

I thought I'd chime in and show how a former house framer builds his wheel building/truing stand. It's very primitive, built hastily, but it worked! To dish the wheel, I found center of rim on the hub, made a mark on the hub, and hung a makeshift plumb line through the valve hole until it lined up with the mark. My advice, if you have to dish the wheel, order extra spokes, and spoke nipples. And spend the money on the Park Spoke wrench. Or just spend $60 and have someone else do it for you. That's how much the local Electra bike shop quoted me, after I'd already built this wheel. I thought i was saving over $100 but i guess not. Yes, I told them it was an hub motor.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Punx0r » Sep 21 2015 4:00am

999zip999 wrote:I was told two cross is much stronger than one cross I'm just worried about more angle at the nipple making more stress at the nipple for the spoke.
Littleskull99 is that a two cross build ? Nice.
That is true for a normal bicycle wheel because the hub diameter is much smaller than a hub motor. Crossing is the result of arranging the spokes so they connect to the hub at a tangent, allowing the rotational force at the hub (accelerating or braking) to pull on the spokes as straight as possible. A single-cross is all you can manage with most hubmotors before the nipple angle becomes excessive.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 21 2015 8:23am

If you desire a one-cross or a 2-cross due to high power and strong regen, these can be achieved with a large-diameter hubmotor by going to a moped rim, due to the directional nipple holes.

https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims ... hubmotors/

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Sep 24 2015 11:26pm

Well I just ran in to a minor issue.

Have been using Holmes Hobbies spokes with great success.

For some reason I thought I would try Pro-Wheel builder...whoops.
For standard bike hubs probably not a problem.

The bend is just a tiny bit shorter and creates to much tension. Hub flange is thick on this front DH hub, maybe similar issue with hub motors.
Maybe pics will help clarify.
Holmes left proWheel right.JPG
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Holmes down  proWheel up.JPG
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Back to Holmes for me.


Made my own truing stand too. Infinitely adjustable.
truing stand.JPG
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Sep 25 2015 12:18am

Paladin wrote:Well I just ran in to a minor issue.

Have been using Holmes Hobbies spokes with great success.

For some reason I thought I would try Pro-Wheel builder...whoops.
For standard bike hubs probably not a problem.

The bend is just a tiny bit shorter and creates to much tension. Hub flange is thick on this front DH hub, maybe similar issue with hub motors.
A shorter bend is usually better than a longer one. Thorough stress relieving of the spokes will form the bend around the hub flange. That keeps the elbows from sticking out unsupported where the spoke exits the flange.

There was a tiny, nerdish brouhaha some years back when DT started making their spokes with deeper elbows to make them easier to lace. In the end, they relented and made their spokes with shallower elbows, although not quite as shallow as before.

More often than not, hub motors have thin steel flanges, which means they benefits most from spoke elbows that are as shallow as possible.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Sep 25 2015 11:22am

Well I am no expert but I am very mechanically inclined.
This Front hub I am building up is a Hope Evo pro boost 110x15.
It has a rather thick hub flange, almost 4mm.
Just looking at it I can see that it will create more tension at the bend than I like the looks of and was creating some badly warped looking spokes.

Don't know what is an average steel hub flange width is but measuring this Mac motor sitting on my table the flange is 4mm and will no doubt cause the same over tension effect.
I will stick with Holmes spokes, no issues in 2 years.
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