The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 25 2015 4:25pm

JRHolmes I'm have to go back to you. As I order 13/14waited for a week for there order to come to them and they only received 13ga and large nipples ? So went with it the nipples where large size polyax and had to drill the rim. I guess I didn't drill large enough for the polyax nipples to properly rotate enough. The spoke angle at the nipples was a bend. It lasted for 6 mos and two deep pot holes. It probably would have lasted as not for the pot holes. But will see what old JR sends me.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by kenkad » Sep 26 2015 12:28pm

Paladin,
Thank you for the info on the length of the spoke/hub flange radius length. Very informative! I am putting some 26 inch rear hub wheels together for a student project and I have both SRAM X9 and Chosen rear hubs provided (at no charge, thank you SRAM and Chosen). The X9's are two bearing and the Chosen are four bearing rear hubs. The flange on the X9 works well with regular WheelSmith type 14 ga spokes. The Chosen flanges are much thicker and need the Holmes type to fit properly.

Does any other source provide the Holmes type at a lower cost? They are kind of pricey for having to buy all the parts for these types of projects. I am a mentor, not an instructor. Thanks for responding.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ykick » Sep 26 2015 12:40pm

@kenkad I order 13/14ga butted Sapim spokes from Danscomp. I never looked how the elbow length compares but saves me 50% to buy from Danscomp.

They're not listed on the spoke page but call the order phone number provided on that page and ask for the 13/14 butted Sapim when you're ready to order and have your length ready. 50¢ each plus $5 shipping last Fall.

Someone will probably point out that the "nipples" Danscomp provides are supposedly cheaper, lower quality than those JRH provides but I've built numerous wheels using both sources for spokes and I find no practical difference other than price.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Sep 26 2015 1:46pm

I think that was my intension, save a couple bucks.
Now I have $32/32 spokes that I wont use.

If you ask, Holmes will delete the nipples charge, if you have extras or personal favorites.
-$10 for 2 sets of spokes I ordered. The Holmes nipples seem to be high quality.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by kenkad » Sep 26 2015 1:51pm

Ykick,
Thank you for the information on Danscomp. I also do a bit of machine tool work and I am always amazed that items like this do not have a reference drawing that would tell us the radius and distance, not just spoke length. I will contact them Monday.

On another note, I absolutely did not want the spokes too long. So I went to ebike.ca and used the spoke length calculator. Only problem is that I wanted to use 16mm long nipples and their calculator does not account for other than 12mm nipples. John, there, sent me a cutaway of how 12, 14 and 16mm nipples are internally, especially the thread length. So I order 262mm instead of 265mm spokes with the 16mm nipples, and they are working out perfectly. Everyone should be aware of the thread length of the three different nipple lengths. Rear wheels I am making are for a special electrified recumbent and the wheels are not dished.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Sep 26 2015 6:49pm

I am not a JRH sales person or anything I pay the same as the rest of you.
Anyone have a Danscomp spoke they can measure? .
.25 cents for a Danscomp stainless 14g...what the...?!

Here is the JRH and pro-wheel.
Measured from the start of the head.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Sep 26 2015 7:04pm

kenkad wrote:On another note, I absolutely did not want the spokes too long. So I went to ebike.ca and used the spoke length calculator. Only problem is that I wanted to use 16mm long nipples and their calculator does not account for other than 12mm nipples.
Under no circumstances does it matter where the spoke threads enter the nipple's threads; it only counts where they end.

Longer nipps can be used to help accommodate spokes that are a couple of mm too short for their application, but that doesn't mean the too-short length is correct. A spoke that ends just at the bottom of the slot in the nipple head is perfect, no matter what length the nipple.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by kenkad » Sep 26 2015 7:35pm

Chalo,
Not going to get baited into your argument.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Sep 26 2015 8:09pm

You haven't had to deal with nearly as many busted-off nipples as I have. If you had, you'd know you want the spoke all the way in, not partway in.

The choice of nipple has no effect on the proper spoke length. Take it on faith if you can't understand it.

EDIT:
Spoke calculators reckon distance from the hub hole to a point 1.5mm past the nipple seat in the rim. That point is independent of nipple length, head style, etc.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ykick » Sep 27 2015 8:41am

JRH 13/14ga butted Sapim on the Left, Danscomp 13/14ga butted Sapim on the Right.
SpokeCompare.jpg
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Maybe 0.25mm difference but that might be more of an angle perception?
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 30 2015 9:37pm

Ok got the stuff. An alxe dm24 26" with eyelets, I didn't see that in the pic when ordering. Plus 13/14 spaim spokes from JRholmes with standard nipples.
I was just wondering about the first spoke and what direction, as trailing or leading.
Oh more info. Muxus 3,000 5t 168mm spokes. So needs litte offset.
Look in the high end bike and I can cross like my old rim. Show pic later.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Oct 01 2015 1:52am

Lace it up so no spokes cross their last crossing over the valve hole. It's a formality, but it makes airing up easier and it shows attention to detail.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 01 2015 11:02am

Thanks Chalo but I was over thinking maybe ? I was thinking of the wheel rotating with the torque of a motor and how I should have the first spoke as a trailing spoke or a leading spoke. But looking at the mega money mtb store. And the first spoke under the flange is leading on three different brand bikes just as I had laced it before and the easiest way to lace it. I hope the eyelets help with spoke tension. I was going to look at angling the nipple holes for the direction of the spoke to the flange but can't do that with the eyelets. So I must get it done.
I read all 20 wheelfanatck wheel building tips on wheel building. Good articles.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Oct 01 2015 12:04pm

It's pretty arbitrary, really. All the torque a hub motor can produce causes very little tension change in the spokes, because the flanges are so large in diameter. The most important thing is to keep the angle of insertion to the rim somewhat reasonable, so the spoke and nipple lie at the same angle. That factor is locked in when hub, rim, and cross count are decided.

As for my habit, I lace mirror image, all trailing spokes on the outside of the flange. To the degree this has any function at all, it tends to lift out foreign objects that might otherwise jam between spokes and sprockets, or between spokes and dropouts.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Paladin » Oct 01 2015 3:15pm

A 'wrong' example.
My 3rd build, didn't even notice till reading about 'boxing' the stem, here.
Seems to work fine.
Keep meaning to fix it but the air tools I use have 45 or 90 degree ends so the spokes dont get in the way.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ykick » Oct 01 2015 3:20pm

Paladin wrote:A 'wrong' example.
My 3rd build, didn't even notice till reading about 'boxing' the stem, here.
Seems to work fine.
Keep meaning to fix it but the air tools I use have 45 or 90 degree ends so the spokes dont get in the way.
Cosmetic for the most part but you'll never do that again. I tend to look at it as groups of 4 spokes x 9 around the rim - I always keep the stem hole between one of those groups of 4 and it will work out unboxed.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by cal3thousand » Oct 01 2015 4:19pm

Boxing the stem is the mark of a careful wheel builder. It won't hurt the wheel to be unboxed, but makes for convenience when airing up and shows off some attention to the details. My first wheels had boxing issues until I finally figured out the right process of where to start, when lacing the next side. It's something that you iron out with successive builds. Funny thing is to look back at your old wheel builds and have a chuckle.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 01 2015 5:14pm

Chuckle who's chuckling ? 3hr later and I got the spokes and rim as one. I tried doing the 9 inside spokes first my head melted so did the 4 and 4 group the valve then did a complete round of 9. Then went back to groups of 4 as not to leave a spoke crossed out on the wrong side.
Now to the local ebike store to use his truing stand and dogleg nipple spinning screwdriver wrench thing. Little by little. Time for lunch and medication.
Thanks All.
Almost put myself in the rubber room ???

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 02 2015 3:05am

Done bicthies. I went do to me oh ma ah.ebike shop turned combo.with offset. I heard everyone tetertater over my paygrade. 3hrs of shut up and poeple gone I found there Bosch problems.
They told I can set in the corner. Good 3hours of offsetting center and a parks wheel stand. Tomorrow full charge adios. 9 days of no magic carpet ??? My 38mph bike.

Reread my late night text ? All I can say is talk to text and needed the midnight beach ride.
Thanks for all the help. 7hrs plus.
Last edited by 999zip999 on Oct 02 2015 12:49pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ykick » Oct 02 2015 7:40am

Way to go Zip.

Keep practicing wheel truing on anything you can find and save yourself time/trouble/money.
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 03 2015 2:49pm

I have been trying to do my best to true the rim but I have no time I have a 30 amp charger so when I come back home and plug it in nm putting up more megawatt hours through it WOT

So what I have a second rim and spokes ?
We learn from are ???
38 mph on sunny day ?
Next I will talk to greenmachine and het his v5 setup wirh his battery ect. Plus I have meet him 3yrs ago and looked in his eyes I'm a believer. New money. Money ?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Oct 12 2015 3:48am

How does one know what thickness spoke to use? I am trying to choose spokes for a 1500w Leafmotor DD with Sun Ringle MTX 33 rim? are these suitable? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/e ... -prod91854

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by voicecoils » Oct 13 2015 3:28am

Lurkin wrote:How does one know what thickness spoke to use? I am trying to choose spokes for a 1500w Leafmotor DD with Sun Ringle MTX 33 rim? are these suitable? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/e ... -prod91854
The relevant measurements to answer your question are:
  • Diameter of hole in hub flange (choose appropriate spoke gauge at neck of spoke based on this measurement)
  • Diameter of hole drilled into rim or eyelet dimensions (choose appropriate nipple to match spoke gauge at thread of spoke based on this measurement)
Based on the above 2, you can determine if a straight or butted spoke is most appropriate.

More things to consider:
  • What is spoke angle with the hub/rim/lace pattern you have chosen? The shaper the angle, the smaller a spoke nipple you will require to avoid a big stress riser between the spoke and spoke nipple at the rim.
  • Is the rim hole eyeleted? This can reduce spoke nipple choices but has other benefits.
  • Is the depth of the rim hole/eyelet large? This can reduce the angle the spoke nipple can sit at.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Oct 19 2015 9:01pm

voicecoils wrote:
Lurkin wrote:How does one know what thickness spoke to use? I am trying to choose spokes for a 1500w Leafmotor DD with Sun Ringle MTX 33 rim? are these suitable? http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/e ... -prod91854
The relevant measurements to answer your question are:
  • Diameter of hole in hub flange (choose appropriate spoke gauge at neck of spoke based on this measurement)
  • Diameter of hole drilled into rim or eyelet dimensions (choose appropriate nipple to match spoke gauge at thread of spoke based on this measurement)
Based on the above 2, you can determine if a straight or butted spoke is most appropriate.

More things to consider:
  • What is spoke angle with the hub/rim/lace pattern you have chosen? The shaper the angle, the smaller a spoke nipple you will require to avoid a big stress riser between the spoke and spoke nipple at the rim.
  • Is the rim hole eyeleted? This can reduce spoke nipple choices but has other benefits.
  • Is the depth of the rim hole/eyelet large? This can reduce the angle the spoke nipple can sit at.
Flange spoke hole diameter: ~3mm
Eyelet hole diameter:~3.3mm

Pretty hard to measure these accurately because the calliper doesn't neatly go into the hole. Will try a bit harder when I get home, just a bit hard at work.

Unsure on spoke lace pattern. Spoke calculations so far have been based on 1X, given the summary on Grin's website suggests more crosses are probably not required. Open to suggestion on this.
The spoke holes do not appear to be angled.
The spoke holes are eyeleted
The depth is decent, pretty hard to tell exactly, will check later tonight.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » Oct 20 2015 1:20am

What hub you talking about ?
The hub.
The hub has eyelets.
Give us a start.
Last edited by 999zip999 on Oct 20 2015 1:24am, edited 2 times in total.

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