The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Lurkin » Apr 14 2016 6:01am

I'm not really following what you have done, but I think you get the gist of it. The more accurate you get your measurements, the more accurate your spoke length will be, the easier the wheel build.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 29 2016 5:44am

I just laced an Edge 1500W hub to a 19-inch Holmes MMP rim, using a single-cross pattern. Here is :D the lacing pattern I found to be the easiest.

I did most of them when they were on their sides (on a table). When I got to the last four spokes, set the rim on its edge, so that the un-spoked holes are at the top.

Do the two inbound spokes first, the two outbound last, always start by the air-stem hole (pencil shown for reference), and move clockwise. I only put each nipple on about three threads, to keep everything loose. They each ended up needing about 21 turns (some more, some less)
Spokes2.jpg
Spokes2.jpg (113.5 KiB) Viewed 1245 times

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by amberwolf » Jul 29 2016 1:30pm

If you cross spoke 4 under spoke 4 so they press against each other when under tension, then the wheel may be stronger under loads that would otherwise let them go slack, if the one pressing against the other keeps it from losing as much tension as the wheel rotates, hits bumps, etc.

And so on with the rest of them.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » Jul 29 2016 3:52pm

amberwolf wrote:If you cross spoke 4 under spoke [1] so they press against each other when under tension, then the wheel may be stronger under loads that would otherwise let them go slack, if the one pressing against the other keeps it from losing as much tension as the wheel rotates, hits bumps, etc.

And so on with the rest of them.
While that's true, at some point of spoke thickness and shortness, it becomes very difficult to interlace them without bending them rather badly. Once they're kinked where they cross, it's anybody's guess how much they'll help each other stay snug-- each crossed pair will have its own distinct crossing tension. Inconsistency like that probably hurts the wheel more than interlacing helps it.

But for spokes that are thin enough to be flexed into place, interlacing does help make the wheel reliable.

For dished rear wheels, it's usually best to lace all the spokes on the right side of their flanges. That helps balance the tension a bit more than otherwise possible. But it makes the matter of interlacing irrelevant.

I'm doing it right this moment on a Bionx hub at work.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 29 2016 4:00pm

This is only the second wheel I've ever laced, so I don't want new readers to assume I am an expert. I just posted that pic to help others who are starting out to make it a little easier.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by markz » Aug 03 2018 5:31pm

How does one choose nipple length (10, 12, 16 or 17mm) when ordering everything online (nips, rim, spokes) ?

Sunringle Rhyno Lite ERD of 549mm

DT Swiss Champion 2.0 at 170mm box of 100
used Justins spoke calculator on mxus 3kw - R is 169.8 and L is 170.4

Brass Nipples (not Alloy not Alum, only Brass!)

It doesnt matter I guess
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64324&p=1102680&hil ... h#p1102680
12mm seems to be it
http://sheldonbrown.com/spoke-length.html

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by johnrobholmes » Aug 03 2018 7:20pm

Doesn’t really matter unless the rim is so deep that you need longer nipples to reach down to the eyelets during assembly.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Carlos33 » May 24 2019 3:43am

According to the video that lacing orientation the spokes are never crossing each other physically, I mean not touch each other and there is a 3-4mm gap between them. I tried all the 8 possible variations at home. Is this the correct way following the video?

Thanks.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by 999zip999 » May 24 2019 7:01am

? My builds the spokes more then touch they have a physical touch. Is this bad ?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Aeron » May 24 2019 9:42am

I have an Mxus motor laced in a 26" rim (2 cross pattern).
I'm concerned about the spokes (Sapim Strong with Polyax Secure Lock nipples) flexing that way:

Image

This looks weird to me, and after reading this (and other) thread about wheel lacing, I understand 2 cross isn't required and 1 cross is plenty enough. I'm tempted to un-lace it and re-lace myself with a 1 cross patern (never done it before), but I'm not sure this is required and I'd like to avoid any unnecessary hassle.
The grin spoke calculator gives a spoke angle of 67.5° with a 2 cross, and 76° angle with one cross.

Should I leave the wheel as it is right now or rebuild it 1 cross ?

Edit: resized picture
Last edited by Aeron on May 25 2019 3:08am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » May 24 2019 3:52pm

Aeron wrote:
May 24 2019 9:42am
Image

Should I leave the wheel as it is right now or rebuild it 1 cross ?
With a little use, your spokes will break at the threads. They might do so even if you use cross-1 lacing. But they'll have a better chance.

If there is any difference in angle between the spoke nipple and the spoke exiting it, the chances are good you will have breakages at the threaded ends.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by DRMousseau » May 25 2019 12:00am

Glad to see a bit more life in this,... AND, looking for a bit of input and opinion.

NEW BUILD,... full custom framed, traditional motorcycle "chopper" style, in other words, typical stretched-fork and capable of carrying two,... ADULT passenger and rider. This means a rear carrying capacity beyond typical bicycle tires, AND yes, a disproportionate weight distribution from front to rear.

A big 3000w QS205 V3 36h is being considered, laced to 100mm 36h 20" bicycle rim to carry a 150/80-16 motorcycle tire.
This makes for some VERY short spokes and extreme spoke angles in a single cross lace. Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

Soooooo,... since this is as much a "radical" custom show build as it is a functional daily rider, I've considered "double-drilling" both hub and motor to 72hole, for a single-cross lace of typical gauge bicycle spokes. This would greatly reduce spoke angle and provide a strong stable build for "motorcycle" weight capacity,.... adult rider, passenger, heavy-weight tire/wheel assembly, AND big hub motor.

NOW,... I believe I have some "special" considerations to note. Like,... the lateral spoke-hole spacing of hub relative to the 4" "fat-bike" rim.

Opinions? Thoughts? Suggestions? Anybody???

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » May 25 2019 12:05am

If you use a 16" motorcycle rim, you may be able to get one with spoke holes oriented for the oblique angles of your spokes. And you will have a rim that can take very high tension on thick 12ga or 10ga spokes. If you're going to load two adults over essentially only one wheel, it may as well be a motorcycle wheel.
Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.
There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.

I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Ozzzz » May 25 2019 12:16am

Aeron wrote:
May 24 2019 9:42am
?
This looks like the first rim I laced. Iv'e not laced many but is this caused by the nipple head sitting flat on the eyelet (inside the rim)? Or is it the nipple shaft held at that angle inside the eyelet? I'm wondering if those little cup shaped washers wouldn't set it up at a different angle?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2019 1:08am

Chalo wrote:
May 25 2019 12:05am
Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.
There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.

I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.
Ditto on this for the 20" wheels on CrazyBike2's and SB Cruiser's unsuspended rear wheels supporting their heavy cargo areas. Even pothole hits that have bent the bead seat edge of the rim flat have not destroyed the wheels. It did unround the wheel and untension some of the spokes a little, but it was perfectly rideable and still works to this day--even after unlacing it from one motor and relacing it to another (when yet another big hit broke the motor axle on the X5304 but didn't damage the wheel itself).





A half-radial / half 1-cross lacing broke 1-cross spokes, though I forget where the break was now, but probably the j bend. They were bent not at the nipple, but further down the spoke, as an experiment with Justin_LE to see if this would prevent spoke breakage...but it still broke because it amounted to an improperly tensioned spoke due to teh flex at the bend.

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by DRMousseau » May 25 2019 1:19am

AH THANKS guy,... knew youd be of some help here. But let me clarify my concerns a bit more.
Chalo wrote:
May 25 2019 12:05am
If you use a 16" motorcycle rim, you may be able to get one with spoke holes oriented for the oblique angles of your spokes. And you will have a rim that can take very high tension on thick 12ga or 10ga spokes. If you're going to load two adults over essentially only one wheel, it may as well be a motorcycle wheel.
A motorcycle rim HAS been considered, but they are typically 40h, making it rather incompatible with a 36h hub. AND, unless hub is specifically a 40h motorcycle hub, I'm not terribly thrilled with heavy gauge spokes in a bicycle hub motor flange. Nor am I thrilled with an unnecessarily heavy motorcycle rim. I really have no qualms of using a bike rim and "double-drilling" both to reduce spoke angle,... I believe this will add plenty of stable strength with typical 12ga spokes.
Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.
Drilling extras are no real issue, except for cost, and this IS a unique custom build in most every way. While I HAVE seen radical straight-laced custom motorcycles, they were 100+ spoke numbers of very heavy gauge,...fancy? or jus "show"? I HAD considered full custom "mag" style hub/rim, but a matching front hub becomes difficult, besides, I would like to retain a "bicycle" appearance, however unusual.
I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.
AH, yes,... the "dead weight" of two adults is of some concern, but I'm sure 72spokes handles that issue with no problem. My BIGGEST concern is the lateral forces of two shifting adults on this setup. Unlike a narrower BMX rim, "Fat-bike" rims on a hub-motor, tend to having a poor lateral triangulation due to rims being made for wider "fatbike" hubs rather than narrow hub motors. THIS is the reason I would prefer motorcycle rims,... but 16" 36h motorcycle rims jus aren't to be found.

Am I jus over thinking this? Will this poor lateral triangulation be of concern in such a setup? And my BIG QUESTION,...Would there be a difficulty in "cross-lacing" laterally? Although uncommon, would this lateral "cross lacing" be unreasonable to consider?

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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Chalo » May 25 2019 3:10am

If your room holes aren't distinctly canted towards one side or the other of the wheel, then you probably can lace across to the other side. I have done this with Weinmann DHL42 rims. DHL65 has too much tilt in the holes. DHL80 would probably work.

Once you have the rim in your possession, you can make an assessment as to whether lacing across is feasible. Just like ordinary cross-lacing, the clue that it's not going to work is when the nipples and the spokes are not in line with each other.
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Re: The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

Post by Aeron » May 25 2019 3:18am

Chalo wrote:
May 24 2019 3:52pm
With a little use, your spokes will break at the threads. They might do so even if you use cross-1 lacing. But they'll have a better chance.

If there is any difference in angle between the spoke nipple and the spoke exiting it, the chances are good you will have breakages at the threaded ends.
If I understand correctly, the angle itself and number of cross do not matter, as long as the spoke isn't aligned with the nipple it'll break. Or are you saying even 1 cross won't work ? (It's a common XF40-30H, I believed those were commonly laced into 26" rims without trouble).
Ozzzz wrote:
May 25 2019 12:16am
This looks like the first rim I laced. Iv'e not laced many but is this caused by the nipple head sitting flat on the eyelet (inside the rim)? Or is it the nipple shaft held at that angle inside the eyelet? I'm wondering if those little cup shaped washers wouldn't set it up at a different angle?
I didn't lace it myself so I don't really know. I'll disassemble it anyway so I'll see, but I believe the nipples are just "maxed out" angle-wise, they can't go further and this angle is not enough to accomodate the angle required by the cross pattern.

I hope 1 cross will work, because I'm not sure a radial pattern is a good idea.

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