Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

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Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 10, 2014 2:32 pm

I recently got a new Prodeco Oasis, Sram 8-speed equipped beach cruiser and fitted the Prodeco Outlaw SS, 28 MPH motor in place of the 20 MPH version to get me back to near the 30 MPH I had with my E+. I also installed long, swept back handlebars and a high-rise stem – all to give me a “bolt-upright” posture when riding. I need this for my wrists and back. In addition to the stock 51.2/12 Ah LiFeP04 rack-mount, slide into position battery, I bought a second identical battery and used my lathe and mill to custom modify a second stock rear rack to fit the second battery into the triangle. This battery and rack combo is exactly like the rear rack combo so when the rear rack battery is depleted, I simply stop, swap battery positions and am good to get home. It’s nice to carry 1 usable Kilowatt! (80% DOD) So now that I’ve tweaked the bike to fit my physical needs and am very happy with its’ looks and range, I need some help in the “power” area.

The motor/controller combo is limited to 1200 Watts below the governed top speed. The Cycle Analyst confirms this power level. My first electric bike was a built-up Commencal with the BMC “Black Lightening” V-2 motor when it was first introduced in about late 2009. I fed it with a 48V/20 Ah Lipo. I remember it would hit 35 MPH or a little more and had much more torque than the Prodeco. I’m toying with the idea of replacing the motor/wheel and controller with a new motor/wheel and controller combo capable of something around 2000 Watts/51.2V-40 Amps. I want it to be torque’y and capable of an honest 30 to 35 MPH. I also like silence so in the past, I would have said direct-drive motor only but I understand the BMC V4 is fairly quiet? So I would consider geared motors too. The controller needs to be very small to fit under the rack as the current one does.

I would appreciate some suggestions on combos. Cost is not the primary concern, performance and reliability are. I’d like something mainstream/known brand name. I’m very electrically and mechanically inclined and will do all the installation with the exception of I don’t want to lace the wheel. I want to buy a motor/wheel combo all laced up. The bike is already equipped with torque arms on both sides. Must be disk brake compatible. Side shaft exit wiring is preferred. Freewheel threads or cassette splines are fine. My riding style is long distance – all On-Road, 30 to 70 mile rides and I pedal nearly full-time with a light load on my legs. Typically, I’m using between 150 and 350 Watts, but like to have much more power available for the thrill of it for the occasional full throttle full speed mile or two. The first three rides on the Prodeco found me using between 12 and 15 Watt hours per mile.
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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 14, 2014 2:35 pm

Can someone help me with these components: - I got no hits on Google or here on E.S.

Mxus sensorless controller: KT48WSMT-XFC09 (I assume it's sensorless because there are a total of only 3 heavy gauge wires going to the motor, no Hall sensor wires)
Other number on controller label: Mxus-14-06-23-Kt

Mxus (?) motors:

B0614-26750-48-526 - original sensorless motor with 20 MPH to speed (No brand name on motors)
B0614-26750 48H-092 - 2nd sensorless motor with 28 MPH top speed

Questions:

1. I'm wondering if I can get higher Amp controller that will work with these motors - Mxus or other brand. Max dimensions are: 2.5" wide, 4.25" long and 1.5" tall
2. Where can I find the specs on max Watts for the motors?
3. Is the difference in top speed in my two motors just a different type of winding or is there some circuitry inside them?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by amberwolf » Dec 15, 2014 7:57 pm

BVH wrote:1. I'm wondering if I can get higher Amp controller that will work with these motors - Mxus or other brand. Max dimensions are: 2.5" wide, 4.25" long and 1.5" tall
Any sensorless-capable controller that meets your voltage and current and volume requirements ought to work on any typical hubmotor.

I don't know of much in that small a size, though.
2. Where can I find the specs on max Watts for the motors?
There probably are no *true* specs for them, unless JustinLE or others have done testing and measurement on them. There are some recent threads about such testing on some motors. I wouldn't count on anything the vendors say about them.

3. Is the difference in top speed in my two motors just a different type of winding or is there some circuitry inside them?
Probably just the winding--otherwise it would be a change in the wheel size attached to them, or the controller's speed limit or voltage applied to the motor. There's not really much you can put into the motor directly to speed it up.




Keep in mind that a more powerful controller will also apply more heat to the motor during startups, acceleration, and hills. If it's a geared motor that extra heat could cause problems (poke around the forums for many threads and posts about that).

Also, whether that will get you to the speed you are after depends on the motor wind and wheel size and battery voltage, too. If the wheel doesn't spin off-ground at least 20% or so faster than the top speed you need out of it, it probably won't do what you want regardless of controller, without higher voltage as well. (assuming there is no speed limiting in the controller).

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 15, 2014 8:20 pm

Thanks for all of that info Amberwolf. I just posted on the Mxus 3000 motor thread hoping to get some info then saw your reply. On the controller, Being a Mxus, there seems to be no info on them anywhere I can find. And that width restriction is killing anything I find. So there's no member heremodfying and selling them? Lots on Infineons would work great but they a too wide, other dims are ok. I understand the potential heat issue with more current flowing. I use max amps so seldom but sometimes I want to feel the thrill of fast acceleration so I want the ability even though I won't use it much. It's a DD motor.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by amberwolf » Dec 15, 2014 8:32 pm

One uption if the width is the only limitation and it's not much too wide, is to change the case it's in, or modify it. Most of the "infineon" type controllers (actually most ebike controllers of any kind) could lose an entire centimeter or more by cutting off the side of the case opposite the FETs, which could then be resealed with an epoxied in place plastic insert or something.

You could also put the whole thing in a totaly different case of whatever material is convenient, and make an "L" shaped heatsink for the FETs that bolts to them directly, taking out the 5-6mm thick aluminum bar they're usually on (which adds to the width and reduces heat dissipation ability), and have the fins of the heatsink be across the "bottom" or "top" of the controller instead, especialy if that faces the wheel (cuz there's more air movement too, as the tire passes it).



I definitely understand the desire to feel the accelration: I don't need faster than 20MPH but I sure like to get there as quick as I can. ;) So I have 2WD 40A controller on each, and looking for more still. :lol:
BVH wrote: So there's no member heremodfying and selling them?
You'd have to look at the items for sale used and new sections to find that out. ;)

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 16, 2014 3:51 am

The stator I replaced on a perdeco had 5 wires so hall sensors. Not sure what model but it's in the garage. Just the stator. Maybe be just that plug they use all in one special. Plus that plug might get hot at 35 or 40amps.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 16, 2014 3:55 pm

I just got a 100 volt max, 6 fet mini monster controller that replced my Prodeco Outlaw Controller and it fits perfectly in the same space/box. The Oasis uses the same box under the battery. I am going to run either two 36 or two 48 volt Li ion Batteries in series and see what happens to my outlaw's motor. Not sure how much current it can handle.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 16, 2014 8:18 pm

I think it has a 27mm stator, but they can use a 24mm in some models. The SS should have the 27mm. If 27mm treat it same as 9c or 2,000watts maybe 2,200 watts. That's what I get away with. It depends on hills and load.
George what ampage does the mini monster put out ?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 16, 2014 10:21 pm

I believe Lyon said it was 50 amps max. I needed one that would fit in the controller box that came with the Outlaw. Now I am rethinking the whole scenerio because I am going to run twin batteries in series to give me high speed. One battery in each Pannier bag over the back tire. I wanted to go with a 84 volt 15 AH Lifepo4 but it would have been 40 lbs and would look silly on the rack behind the seat. I'm probably going to fry the motor by running so much more power to it, but if I do then I will be getting a better motor.

1) Due to the heavy weight of Lifepo4 I am going to probably get two Li-On 36 or 48 volt batteries from BMS Battery in China. Take a look at this battery they offer https://bmsbattery.com/71-48v-li-ion and tell me which Battery Management I should go with? They will build a battery to suit my wishes. I was thinking about a cutoff of 50 amps max.

2) Since I am turning this bike into a high speed machine, which gearless hub motor should i get that can handle the high voltage and current I propose to run?

3) Where c an I purchase clean looking phase wires to run from the controller down to the Motor?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 16, 2014 10:23 pm

George, can you provide info/links to the mini monster controller?
George wrote:I just got a 100 volt max, 6 fet mini monster controller that replced my Prodeco Outlaw Controller and it fits perfectly in the same space/box. The Oasis uses the same box under the battery. I am going to run either two 36 or two 48 volt Li ion Batteries in series and see what happens to my outlaw's motor. Not sure how much current it can handle.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 17, 2014 1:16 pm

His email is: Edward@Lyen.com

The controller is 2.5 wide, 1.25 height, 4.85 length including the mounting brackets.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but thought I could help out a fellow with the same intentions.

The oasis has the same motor and controller box that the outlaw has so you will be fine switching it out. I knew that I would be upgrading so went ahead and got the controller replaced first. I have yet to install it, but will soon. I knew the existing Prodeco controller would not handle the increase in voltage I am looking to run. I'm more about the speed rather than the torque so I am going to run at least 84 volts or more. Lets see if the motor can handle it.

In case you did not know, the bikes they make are good, just not the customer service end. I know of two bike shops that stopped carrying them due to that issue. Like yourself I really don't care because I am voiding the warranty anyway and will fix any problems that arise myself.

I like what you did with mounting the other battery up front, maybe you could just splice into the other battery in parallel so you would not have to stop and switch them out. It would also give you more torque on starts.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 17, 2014 5:00 pm

Thanks George. I did go ahead and wire the 2nd battery into the system. So now I can run on the front OR the rear OR both - depending on which key switch is on or if both are on, I'm running both in parallel.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 17, 2014 10:39 pm

Prodec you get alot for the money for a prebuild ebike. I would like to know what lifepo4 cell they use ?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 18, 2014 10:18 am

When I do replace mine I will open it up and tell you. One thing is for sure. They do not hold up well over time and they charge a lot for the replacement. I am going to get one from China direct that is far better and less expensive.

BVH - Did that increase the torque on the bike any?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 18, 2014 11:31 am

I can't say that I really felt any significant difference in acceleration. But it holds system Voltage at least 1.00 to 1.25V higher at any given throttle level.

Just to verify which specific controller you got from Lyen? He's proposing a 3077 which he indicates is 2.63" wide - too wide for the 2.5" under-rack area. Maybe post some pics of it?

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 18, 2014 1:19 pm

Prodeco has a new 1200watt SS model and that is probably at the lifepo4 battery limit. I just don't think they have a great or special lifepo4 cell. It worries me for long life as they claim 2,000 cycles or 2 yr warranty. So get that 2,000 cycles in two yrs and test it.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 18, 2014 1:44 pm

Controller length.jpg
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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 18, 2014 1:51 pm

George, I need the only dim (width) not posted above. Length and height are fine.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 18, 2014 1:55 pm

999zip999 wrote:Prodeco has a new 1200watt SS model and that is probably at the lifepo4 battery limit. I just don't think they have a great or special lifepo4 cell. It worries me for long life as they claim 2,000 cycles or 2 yr warranty. So get that 2,000 cycles in two yrs and test it.
My controller provides about 24 Amps @ 51 Volts under load so about 1200 Watts to the motor according to the CA. I'm running two batts in parallel so am not at all stressing them. Even with a 40 amp controller, max current draw would only be 1.7C. Any LiFeP04 is going to handle that. Now the motor? That might be a different story.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 19, 2014 12:59 am

Case.jpg
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It should fit and if not you can file off the edge of the bracket a little. I have not put mine in yet but will do so when I decide my battery setup.


The new 1200 watt is probably just a 750 watt motor which is the legal limit for an electric bike in the US. By running more volts and/or current you increase the watts. I can make my 750 watt motor over 2100 watts by running 72 volts at 30 amps which is the most I would feel comfortable doing without replacing the wiring. Prodeco is just running 48 volts at 25 amps to get the 1200 which is the case with the Outlaw SS

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 19, 2014 1:23 am

40 amps can cook most ebike lifepo4 battery packs, just add some hills to speed it up. Don't thing you will get close to cycle life. But do let us know how it goes in two months of riding.
If 24amps it's fine maybe 28amps is the sweet spot. Remember you should run in the sweet spot.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by George » Dec 19, 2014 8:46 am

I mwill be running two batterys in series and will probably go with Li-on for less weight and cost. FYI- I bought my Prodeco battery in May and its allready on its way out. 2000 charges = no way.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Dec 19, 2014 9:23 am

Thanks George.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by 999zip999 » Dec 19, 2014 10:41 am

That's 28amps with the two batteries 20ah.

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Re: Power Upgrade For Prodeco Oasis 28 MPH Version

Post by BVH » Feb 08, 2018 11:06 pm

I'm dragging up this old thread because is shows and describes exactly the bike I still have. I would like to upgrade it with a complete kit to somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500 to 3000 Watts, staying with the existing 2 each, 51.2V/12Ah batteries running in parallel. Obviously, I never did any upgrading back in 2014. I would imaging there's quite a few new motors - almost 3 years later? I would like to be able to reach at least 35 MPH if I can do it with my existing Voltage. I wouldn't mind a geared motor for ease of pedaling without power but am OK with a DD. So looking for recommendations for a quality, readily available kit or separate components as long as they are plug-n-play. I did buy one of Lyen's controllers back then. It's a 063077SL-Mii-Lyen edition. But I don't have to use it if there is something more advanced/better available. I don't remember any specs on it? Cost is NOT the primary driving force. I would greatly appreciate recommendations as I have not been following advancements in hi-performance components for quite some time. I am quite skilled mechanically and electrically and will do all the work myself.

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