improving MXUS 3000 V2

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madin88   100 MW

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improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 03 2015 1:56pm

This is a thread about modifications on the very popular MXUS 3000 V2 motors.
I have 4T and 3T motor. On both the phase wires are to small in relation to the cross section of the widings so it makes sense to upgrade them. The covers are not sealed up well so water can get easy into the motor - its very important.
On 3T i will install custom axle (made from Linas), 8mm² phase wires, inside air cooling (with blower wheel from 140mm fan and Al heatshrinks), but more about this the next days / weeks.
first the improvements i did on the 4T:

out of the package:

Image

the hall sensor in the middle had been glued 3mm below the surface so i pulled it out and glued it to the place where it belongs:

Image

stock wire vs. 4mm² "PTFE" wire.
it has 3,3mm in diamter which is only a little bit more like the 13AWG stock wire.
i put the 3 phase wires together (like a triangle) and in every gap i placed 2 from the 6 wires going to the halls and thermistor. this will keep the overall diameter of the bunch of cables small so more room is left for shrink tube for protection.

Image

soldering wires to the winding. i like to wrap them together with small copper wire before. lots of silicone at the outlet and inside the axle to keep water out.

Image

Image

for 135mm dropouts and when only using single speed sprocket (or maybe 2 or 3-speed cassete) there exists the possibility to extend the 10 to 10mm flat part on area with 16,8mm diamater. this will reduce stress on both the axle and dropouts. i made it about 6mm long. with one wide and one thin washer on wire side it will result in about 135mm overall wideness. the washer(s) ANYWAY are needed so the wire can exit in a nice curve out of the axle (otherwise it could chafe against the sealing ring). when doing so, the spoke flange is about 2-3mm off the center near chain side so little rim dishing is necessary (no need to worry about).

Image
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Feb 03 2015 2:30pm

Thanks for sharing your good mods 8)
Where did you get those new phase wires?
Your motors are from groupbuy?
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 03 2015 2:48pm

other mods / ideas are welcome :)
my motors are from MXUS direct, not from groupbuy.
the phase wires i have from here:
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/6032 ... m?ref=list
from other manufacturer they often are called PTFE wire. they can withstand temps above 200°C and have very small diameter.
the wires to the halls are stock.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Feb 03 2015 2:55pm

Why not painting your stator with urethane paint?
And what about upgrading your hall wires to PTFE?
Upgrading your hall sensors to Honeywell SS41XXX....?
Ugrading cover screws to stainless steel HEX/TORX ones?
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 03 2015 3:09pm

as far as i know the halls are already honeywell SS41 types so i did not change them. i do not know if better (faster?) types like the ss413a make sense in general. maybe someone can tell us more about this..
the stock screws are already made of stainless stell, however the quality is not very good so i have changed them.
further i have drilled new spoke holes.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by teslanv » Feb 03 2015 6:57pm

This looks like great work, Madin.

I will also be upgrading my phase wires after I have had a chance to test out the stock configurations. In my opinion, the 3T defintely needs larger phases.

A word of warning about water infiltration:

Even if you seal the cables where they come in through the axle, water can still get in through the wiring itself. This is a must-watch.



[moderator edit: this entire video is awesome for technical info, the part on water ingress starts at 20:38]
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madin88   100 MW

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 04 2015 5:45am

make sure the sealing ring does not chafe against the wire. i have removed the stock lock ring (very sharp and big risk of short circuit!!) and used a zip tie instead

Image

there should be some material filed off the washers so the wire can make a nice curve

Image

on the bike (vector or evel ecross frame) with 135mm dropout. enough space left for spacer ring, brake rotor and screws.

Image

the 10mm flat part on 16,8mm axle diameter:

Image

paired spoke holes (12mm distance). better quality screws (i only had coutersunk head at home so i used them)

Image

laced in Alex DX32 rim with 13GA spokes, 0-cross (radial). the spoke angle is about the same as normally on the front wheel. this should result in - hopefully :) a long lasting wheel

Image
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 04 2015 7:13am

teslanv wrote: Even if you seal the cables where they come in through the axle, water can still get in through the wiring itself. This is a must-watch.
this vid is really helpful. thx for sharing. its awesome justin has known this all 4 years ago.
i have made sure there is continuously shrink tube covering from motor inside over the bunch of wires to the plugs (which are inside the frame). now i would not be afraid to wash the motor with the garden house 8)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by markz » Feb 04 2015 3:47pm

On your DX rim whats the diameter of the rim?
For PTFE "Polytetrafluoroethylene" wire, is this the same as the HK 200 degree wire they sell?

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by cal3thousand » Feb 04 2015 5:24pm

Nice work as usual Madin88!

I like the ziptie on the axle to keep it away from the chafe ring. I've done the same.

One suggestion: On your phase wire (if you haven't already terminated them), consider adding a tension spring (cut to fit) over the heatshrink to act as an extra guard from rubbing:

Image
HT3535 With Spring on Phases-800.jpg
HT3535 With Spring on Phases-800.jpg (53.53 KiB) Viewed 11628 times
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Feb 05 2015 7:40am

Thanks for sharing your idea, where did you get this spring?
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by cal3thousand » Feb 05 2015 10:45am

MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER wrote:Thanks for sharing your idea, where did you get this spring?
I bought mine at Orchard Supply Hardware. A good hardware store will have it in their doors and gates section. There are tons of options to choose from so have a measurement of your wire bundle ready.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by John in CR » Feb 06 2015 12:16pm

Uprgraded phase wires - check

It sounds like you plan to turn a section of the phase wires into solid core just outside the motor to prevent water entering the motor inside the wiring- bonus points for that. What about inside the insulation but outside of the conductors?...silicone maybe... You can hide the extra thickness of that effort at the drip loop (don't forget the drip loop or it's all for naught).

Cooling sounds like you're keeping it sealed, so I'd suggest KISS and just add blades and surface area inside and outside the covers. The complex rig you've talked about before is unlikely to net much, if anything, over simple blades that force higher velocity air at the stator and end windings. That will increase heat transfer by more surface area and can greatly increase the coefficient of convective heat transfer with simple and durable changes. If you can't weld aluminum, then it's a good use for those aluminum brazing rods, though bolts and a metalized epoxy will work fine too. Keep in mind that the outside shell must get hotter and/or have more surface area to transfer more heat. Moving it faster inside gets the shell hotter early, but as the oil fill guys have found out, on long rides temp keeps going up, so more surface area and more/faster air movement over the exterior is necessary. Mine sheds thousands of watts when I ride hard, and no way it's just from fresh air flow through. I'm sure the 2 scoops that send extra air at the motor and the blades on the shell that move more air across it play a big role. Of course 1/4 the resistance compared to a 3T is a big help, but my motor isn't magic and still makes plenty of heat.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 08 2015 12:24pm

thanks for the tips John.
i will build the cooling system soon into the motor and post pics. than you can tell what you think about it :)
by now i have no plans for increasing surface area on the outside - only on the inside i will install little heatsinks which also work as a radial blower wheel (on one sidecover).
as glue i will use "quick steel" which i believe is some kind of epoxy. some use it for cold welding steel, so it should be good for this purpose.
John in CR wrote:What about inside the insulation but outside of the conductors?...silicone maybe...
after 10-15cm i will put the wire into a tube and cover it with shrinktube (with glue inside) so normally water cannot come to the inside of the overall insulation. but you have right, if it does, it could come into the motor..
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 08 2015 10:51pm

Nice work!
I'm having a hard time finding that wire in the US. Even looking at 10 AWG PTFE too.
This is all I could find in low quantity.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-37-0-4-10 ... 1102498724
I don't trust it cause it sais speaker wire.

Question :?:
You wrapped the phase wire to the winding tap with a small copper wire before you soldered or after you soldered them together?
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by icecube57 » Feb 08 2015 11:25pm

www.powerwerx.com has PTFE wire.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 09 2015 2:58am

WOW!
Where has this sight been all my life! Thanks for the link! This will come in handy when I'm ordering all my connections for my batteries.
But Teslanv said he'd sell me some wire for a good price so I'm jumpin on that!

Yah my only concern now is my freewheel snapping off when I use the gas engine! :shock:
I was already worried about it then I saw it in that video teslanv posted up here. Now I'm more than just a little worried.
Especially because I got the free wheel spacer on there.
Do you guys think I should be worried? Is the V1 MXUS strong enough? Does it have a steal sleeve inside the freewheel mount?
I did just get some alloy brazing rods for when I make my aluminum battery boxes. I could beef this up a bit?
I'm only going to test drive it with the gas once or twice just to see how it works then the gas is coming off anyway.
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After trying almost every possible combo I finally got everything to jive. I can use all the gears and have a DocBass TA on each side! The epoxy for the TA is curing as I write this.
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GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
600W CAPACITIVE SPOT WELDER BUILDING... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=66466
HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 09 2015 4:44am

diggler wrote: Question :?:
You wrapped the phase wire to the winding tap with a small copper wire before you soldered or after you soldered them together?
before. makes soldering more easy ;)
icecube57 wrote:http://www.powerwerx.com has PTFE wire.
it looks like this shop does not offer 11GA, and 10GA might be to big for the axle hole.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by teslanv » Feb 09 2015 12:39pm

Diggler,

After testing the 3T MXUS, I can honestly say, you will have no desire for a gas engine. These MXUS motors have plenty of power all by themselves, as long as you pair it with a decent controller and battery that can put out the amps.
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 09 2015 7:04pm

Nice!
before. makes soldering more easy ;)
it looks like this shop does not offer 11GA, and 10GA might be to big for the axle hole.
I hope 10 AWG will work cause that's what is coming.
After testing the 3T MXUS, I can honestly say, you will have no desire for a gas engine. These MXUS motors have plenty of power all by themselves, as long as you pair it with a decent controller and battery that can put out the amps.
the gas was just for unlimited range, and it's coming off after a couple test rides.
But yah I'm exited for the MXUS V1 4T paired with 18fet Infineon 72V 40ah lipo.
And with the upgraded phase wires I'll probably try more than 120 phase amps.

On another note do you guys think the controller would be ok going 24s lipo if I only charged the to 4.1/series. So 98.4V hot off the charger.
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
600W CAPACITIVE SPOT WELDER BUILDING... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=66466
HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 10 2015 5:32am

diggler wrote: On another note do you guys think the controller would be ok going 24s lipo if I only charged the to 4.1/series. So 98.4V hot off the charger.
yes it should work, but i believe you have to do a resistor mod (for controller supply) and it probably needs additional low ESR caps which smooth out voltage spikes if you push it harder. set block time to zero.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 13 2015 11:00pm

yes it should work, but i believe you have to do a resistor mod (for controller supply) and it probably needs additional low ESR caps which smooth out voltage spikes if you push it harder. set block time to zero.
vrroooom! That's the sound of an imaginary plane flying over my head. :lol:

Thanks a lot for the answer though. I definitely don't want to blow this controller.
This is what I think I get from all that...

The resistor mod is so the voltage spikes don't go over 100v from the battery and pop the caps in the controller.
(Though I don't know how to do this. )

The additional low ESR caps are for, like you said, to help the caps that are already there because going to 96v will be pushing them hard. So how many more in parallel? And how is this done, do you just glue a couple on top of the board someplace they will fit then solder appropriate wires to the under side of the board where the original caps are soldered to? (called traces?)

The setting block time to 0. What I gather from reading on the form is that this is the saturation time for the motor coils.
I've read a lot of people staring out at 0 then ramping up till there motor gets too hot.
And I understand this is done when you program the controller, which I have never done yet, but I will soon because I originally was going to go with 24s lipo4 but now am going with 18s lipo.

I'm going to do 18s first but thought it would be fun to try out 24s lipo.

Thanks
Diggler
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
600W CAPACITIVE SPOT WELDER BUILDING... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=66466
HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 20 2015 2:06am

Yep madden you were right 10AWG is too big.
I squeezed them in there but there's no way I'm going to be able to pull the shrink wrap with halls too.
20150219_235350.jpg
20150219_235350.jpg (208.22 KiB) Viewed 11013 times
I smoothed out the sharp edges on the axle with a diamond die grander bit too.
20150219_235941.jpg
20150219_235941.jpg (158.6 KiB) Viewed 11013 times
As of right now I'm just going to wait for the 12AWG I ordered, use that to get through the axle then solder the 10AWG in from there.

Just curious though.
Have you or do you know of anybody widening the hole through the axle?
I have a diamond bit I could get in there with and elongate the hole towards the center of the axle a bit.
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
600W CAPACITIVE SPOT WELDER BUILDING... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=66466
HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 22 2015 8:46am

pics of the mods for inside air circulation. NO holes on the covers.
the heatsinks also work as a radial fan. there is very small gap between them and aluminum stator:

Image

Image

for the hall sensor wires i have drilled a hole to make sure the rotating parts do not chafe against them:

Image
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by teslanv » Feb 22 2015 11:37pm

For this weekend's project, I upgraded the phase wires in my 3T V2 MXUS.

The original Plan was to use 10AWG PTFE wires. However I had some difficulties getting the 10AWG PTFE wires through along with the hall wires. So I back-pedaled a bit, and ran 12AWG PTFE wires through the axle.

I still wanted 10AWG or larger wires to carry the bulk of the high phase currents from my controller to the motor, so I oped to splice 8AWG silicone wire to the 12AWG PTFE wires immediately once they existed the MXUS' Axle.

I saw this technique for end-end splicing on another thread here, and thought I would share it again, because I think it is the Cat's Meow.

How to make a kick-ass End-to-End Splice on Heavy Wires that will take a LOT of current

Start by stripping off a good 3/4" of insulation on both wires you wish to splice.

Image

Unravel & splay the strands out slightly on each wire.

Image

Slip the two Splayed wire ends together so they intertwine with each other. It helps if you hole the strands somewhat snug in your fingers so they don't just mash into each other, but really slide in between each others strands.

Image

This next step is the key: Use a very thin strand of bare copper wire (I used a 4" long piece of Ethernet cable (28AWG maybe) with the insulation stripped off) to bundle the connection together. Wrap it around in a spiral, and as you do so, you pull all the loose strands of the wire ends tight together. (This is exactly what madin88 did on his phase wires inside the motor in the beginning of this thread.)

Image

Once your slice is sufficiently snug and tight, solder everything together, This takes quite a bit of solder, so just let the strands soak up that solder, until the whole thing is saturated, all around.

Image

Following the soldering, and after letting the connection cool, feel the surface for any sharp or pointy parts. File or press down any sharp or pointy areas (especially the wrap ends) so the bare surface is more or less smooth, and Apply Shrink wrap.

Image

And Voila... You have a very neat and insanely beefy splice. This method works well for Both Phase wires and Battery Mains.
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