The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 02, 2017 3:29 am

I dunno if it's a world record or not (I suspect it isn't), but it was a record for this trailer at least. ;)


Yesterday in the parking lot at work, I had an encounter with another aggressive, stupid driver in a small white SUV. Something about those things seems to make people want to hurt others, and de-brains them. :roll:

The parking lot isn't well-designed, but it looks like this (north pointing up):
8-31-17 idiot driver.jpg
8-31-17 idiot driver.jpg (66.41 KiB) Viewed 684 times
where I'm the yellow triangle pointing east, and the SUV the green box pointing north.

That's a 3-way stop, with signs at the red hexagons, and clearly marked large broad lines where you should stop (though they're not that clear in the pic, they are when you're there).

I came to a complete stop, as usual, at the western sign/line, with another car (handily already in the image) right behind me.

The SUV was approaching their line/sign, and began to slow a bit, just as I was beginning to startup from my stop.

Then, without ever coming to anything even resembling a stop, they accelerated right in front of me and went around me as I was already in the intersection, while opening the driver side window and yelling out the window "YOU SHOULD STOP TOO!!!!" as they passed my left front quarter, and continuing to accelerate around and past me.

This makes no sense. Even if I had not stopped (which I did), I was already completely in the intersection at that point, about to be in front of them. They did not ever stop at all, and so could not legally or safely continue into the intersection, whether I was there or not. If I'd been accelerating a little faster, they would have just run right into my front right quarter, and crushed the front of the trike, possible me, too.

Most likely they were not paying any attention and didn't even notice it was a stop, much less that anyone else was already previously stopped at the cross-way to them, and was then proceeding thru the clear intersection as normal, safe, and legal.

Well, safe except for when there's people like them near it.

Unfortunately that kind of maneuver (minus the shouting) happens fairly often there--thankfully it's not usually to me. Infrequently there are collisions resulting from it, or pedestrians/etc that are hit.

Aggressive idiots. :roll:

EDIT:
I was looking at the streetview of the place, and as it happens, it caught the same basic thing happening on camera. The difference here is that the car coming from the south (on the right in the pic) would represent me (already in the intersection) while the other one is just starting out from it (in front of the camera car). I don't know in this pic which of these cars actually is in the wrong, of course, but the situation looks very similar to mine, and happens there all the time. (it's a lot worse since teh In-n-out burger place went in several years ago, before that it was a problem, but not anything like as bad as it is now).
idiot driver demo.jpg
idiot driver demo.jpg (88.29 KiB) Viewed 682 times




That said, continued data from the new motors shows a continuation of hte lower wh/mile, it's been about 48wh/mile average for my commutes this week, pretty much no wind.



Another couple of data points:

--when the pack is fully charged, there is almost zero braking via the ebrakes, until it gets down to IIRC about 10MPH, at which point the EABS (right motor) pulls harder and I get a significant but insufficient boost to the braking. The left motor (regen) also pulls harder at that point but not as much as the EABS does.

--when the pack is about half empty to 5/8 full, there's a great deal more regen braking (left motor) than above that point, dramatically so to the point that when speed drops to the boost point, it actually squeaks the left wheel just an instant as it loses traction, under some conditions. This stops immediately after that; it's just the sudden boosted regen braking that does this, at that transition from the above-boost-point to post-boost-point behavior.

If I could get braking that good all the time, I'd be happy with it. ;) Well, if I could get *proportional* braking, with analog control of the force, but with wheel-squeaking power at peak, anyway.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 03, 2017 4:21 pm

Wierd--when I see this topic in the forum list it says that RTIII made the most recent post, Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:13 am, but it isn't actually there. :?


Anyway, I was cleaning out some stuff from the cargo/battery/seatbox area in preparation for going to go get some household and yard stuff on the labor day weekend sales, and thought I'd check the cell balances on the main and lighting packs.

The lighting pack is a 4s1p EIG 20Ah NMC, whose cells have been used for this for several years now. It still gives it's full capacity (for a 90% charge state), though I rarely use more than half, and it stays balanced. I'd run it down almost halfway the last few days, and it was within 0.02v on each cell at that point, and when I plugged in the charger, which is presently set at 3A, they stayed the same relative to each other as voltage rose then and during the rest of charge up to 4.1v/cell.


The traction pack I charge fully (4.15v/cell, EIG NMC 14s2p 40Ah), but also rarely use more than half over several days before recharging.

Charging is usually at 24A (a bit over 0.5c) with a pair of Meanwell HLGs in parallel (charges directly thru the SB50 connector on the pack). Sometimes I use the Satiator, which only does a max of 8A, though I dont' recall what it actually charges at for this pack due to it's wattage limit (charges via the XLR on the trike frame, thru the CA shunt).

Originally the cells were from two separate groups of cells, about 2/5 of them came to me at a 3.8v level, and the rest about 3.6v. Over time I've rebalanced each section of the pack manually with the Satiator using it's programmability, and since then it's maintained that. At present it too is within 0.02V/cell, both at the halfway point and during charging/etc.

I haven't tested balance recently under the trike's 60-70A max load, but I should rig up a test load to do that while I use the DMM to check the cells.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 04, 2017 8:31 pm

Some numbers from two parts of yesterday's ride, and today's.

Yesterday I went a few miles up to Lowe's to pickup some things on clearance and on their laborday sale, and then after that swing around to the grocery store to get some things I forgot on the previous trip.

The first segment of data is the trip portion north of Metrocenter, where there's only a stop/start every half mile at worst, except in the parking lots I pass thru, so instead of a dozen stop/starts in 2.5 miles, like at Metrocenter, there's maybe half that at most. But because the trike is not very aero, then riding at 20MPH eats up power on it's own, and so doesn't reduce the wh/mile proportionally nearly as much as the same kind of trip on CrazyBike2 does.

54.9v resting
5.528miles
258.27wh
46.7wh/mi
0.5% regen
4.7537ah forward
0.0344ah regen
-15.9amin
68.53amax
51.0vmin
20.3mph max
13.6mph avg
24m16s triptime
2919mi odo



The second segment of data is just the portion after the above trip, to the grocery store and then home. I lost the data for the segment prior to the segment above, but it was typical of my work commutes as they take the same path.

54.9vstart
53.9v rest
2.909miles
3.260ah
171.9wh
59.2wh/mi
0.7% regen
3.2849fwd ah
0.0231 regenah
-16.3amin
69.96amax
49.7vmin
20.3mph max
14.0mph avg
12m23s triptime
2922miles odo





Today's trip data is for the opposite direction, to get some more welding wire at Harbor Freight since they sent out a one-day 25% off coupon. However, they refused the coupon saying it didn't apply to that brand--but they don't carry any other "brand", it's all store-brand stuff under one name or another. I overheard other people in line angry/frustrated for similar reasons. Since without the coupon it's too expensive (is anyway, at ~$80) I left (like others did) without buying anything at all. I still have about 1/3 of a roll left so I won't run out that soon, but it's much better to already have the next roll before I run out. :/

trip is again mostly long stretches of continuous riding, stops at most every 1/2 mile, except for the parking lots. So again aero impacts performance more than weight, but there was beginning to be significant wind on my way home, making the performance works worse.

57.9vstart
54.9vrest
8.262mi
7.448ah
410.38wh
49.4wh/mile
0.7% regen
7.507ah fwd
0.0587ah regen
-20.2amin
69.9amax
50.8vmin
20.2mph max
14.4mph avg
34m12s triptime

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by wturber » Sep 05, 2017 5:23 pm

amberwolf wrote:
The first segment of data is the trip portion north of Metrocenter, where there's only a stop/start every half mile at worst, except in the parking lots I pass thru, so instead of a dozen stop/starts in 2.5 miles, like at Metrocenter, there's maybe half that at most. <snip>
Ah - Metrocenter. My old stompin' grounds. Watched it get built. Went to Cortez HS in the mid 70s. Worked at the Hardees/Whataburger and also at the LaBelles (a sort of pre-Price Club discount department store).
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 06, 2017 12:42 am

We moved into the area in the mid-70s, lived there a few years, then parental conflict sent us to rural Texas for a few years. Came back to the same area (more by coincidence than anything else, just had best deal on house rent for what we were after that was close to where Mom could get work and we could finish school), and been here ever since (though we moved across the freeway turn of the century).

So while I don't recall the Hardees, I think I remember a Sambos that by the time we moved back here was a good family-owned restaurant that is now a QT, south of my house a bit.

Labelle's has been gone quite a while now but I got one of my first musical keyboards there. IIRC there's a school there now, and I forget the name of the shopping-type store. Whataburger was thrown out maybe a decade ago and was empty for ages, now it's Culvers.

South end of Metrocenter (macy's/etc) was torn down and now it's a walmart. Rest of metrocenter inside is...not like it used to be. The skating rink, farrells, etc., has been gone a loooong time and was a food court the last time i went in there several years back. I dont' know if The Alley is still there; probably not.

Swensens was thrown out a while back and left empty for a long time, along with sizzlers, etc, and a few other places. Not too long back they tore that all down and now it's a new empty building they can't seem to rent out. (not sure why, but they seem determined to throw out paying businesses and replace them with empty lots and empty buildings).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by wturber » Sep 06, 2017 3:19 pm

Graduated Cortez HS in '77. Left the area in '78. Ended up moving back to old neighborhood around '86 or '87 because my (eventual) wife found a house she liked in the area. Moved to Fountain Hills around 2000 ... because she found a house she liked better. :^)

Hardee's became Whataburger. My job there survived the transition. Whataburger was (maybe still is) a good company to work for (for a hamburger joint.)

Haven't been to Metro Center for ages. I understand it going to be flattened, but the latest is that they are re-developing it. Time will tell as to what actually happens. These aren't great times for brick and mortar stores.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 09, 2017 4:18 am

Since I really need regen for braking this monstrosity quickly and safely, and regen basically doesn't do anything when the battery is fully charged, and works best below 54v, I've gone ahead and adjusted one of the MW HLG's for 54.0V, leaving it at the 12A max current setting.

This does cut into the range a little bit, but seeing as I don't actually *use* that range (probably about 30 miles worst case, 40+ median case, 50+ best case) very much, it doesn't really matter. If I really needed it I can always charge using the 58v charger, or carry one with me. (eventually intend to build one into the trike; no need so far).

These days, usually I'll go for a few days' commutes before recharging, maybe using half the pack's capacity, so this won't affect my usual routine, other than ensuring I can get good regen braking even from a fresh (if not full) charge.







On the previous topic, Metrocenter is always changing; if it ever gets into the hands of an owner that actually wants businesses there, it'll get better. So far it seems to keep going to owners that want to drive away business by cancelling leases for existing businesses doing well, then wasting money by tearing the buildings down and making new ones that no one moves into. Some of the new ones built get immediately torn down to make room for a different building for a new business, which sometimes stick around, but more often also get kicked out or shut themselves down, starting the cycle on that plot again.

But none of it, inside or out, looks much like it did when some of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure was filmed there.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by ddk » Sep 11, 2017 8:33 pm

amberwolf wrote:Since I really need regen for braking this monstrosity quickly and safely, and regen basically doesn't do anything when the battery is fully charged, and works best below 54v, I've gone ahead and adjusted one of the MW HLG's for 54.0V, leaving it at the 12A max current setting.

...
I was just gonna suggest you do this LOL

My controller's set for a 13S battery with no undervoltage. I use 12S batteries and undercharge them to 'almost' 4.1V per series. In this way I always have full braking force and room to charge while it does it's thing.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 11, 2017 9:46 pm

I don't know if mine are programmable; they have pads for a port cable to solder on, but I don't have software for them (or know which one might work). Plus I'm kinda afraid of screwing the controller(s) up (it's why I haven't done a simple shunt mod for just a tad more power). I don't know all their existing settings, either, and these things typically can't read those with the programming software, they just send the new settings. So I might end up being unable to set them back to the way they are working now if i change them and they don't work the way I want anymore. :/



That said, so far it's working fine to do the lower voltage charge level.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by RTIII » Sep 12, 2017 10:32 am

amberwolf wrote:Since I really need regen for braking this monstrosity quickly and safely, and regen basically doesn't do anything when the battery is fully charged, and works best below 54v, I've gone ahead and adjusted one of the MW HLG's for 54.0V, leaving it at the 12A max current setting.

...
Some years ago I worked on an electric car project where regen wasn't needed for braking - or any reason, really - but was highly desired, so we designed the system that when the brake pedal moved more than 1mm (adjustable), the pack of ten 12v flooded, lead acid batteries was divided from being in series into two 5 battery packs run in parallel and connected up to the motor-now-generator and the results were spectacular for regeneration! Only real trouble was, we didn't have a controller in the way and it was an all or nothing dump of energy and as a result was great but relatively unworkable. The driver had to have the ability to turn the feature on and off separately or it was a crash hazard! Too much braking!

I had voted for a pressure transducer in the original juice brakes of the car and having a controller give a more proportional drop out of batteries based on the pressure signal, but the problem there is getting the cells out of commonality of charge It would have been a lot more readily workable if there had been the ability to get at each cell, because then you'd be talking about 60 independent 1.5v cells, and that divides in a lot more ways than just two parallel packs. You could do: 2 X 30, 3 X 20, 4 X 15, 5 X 12, 6 X 10... Five granularities would probably be enough, but with 6 cells pre-packaged into individual batteries, that means that of these 5 (6 counting the whole group), you could only do two of them easily. And, what a hell of a switching setup you'd have to have! Unfortunately, not workable. -shrug-

However, the basic idea could work for you, I think... You could split your pack and run the two halves in parallel for the ultimate in re-gen braking!

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 12, 2017 2:48 pm

RTIII wrote:Some years ago I worked on an electric car project where regen wasn't needed for braking - or any reason, really - but was highly desired, so we designed the system that when the brake pedal moved more than 1mm (adjustable), the pack of ten 12v flooded, lead acid batteries was divided from being in series into two 5 battery packs run in parallel and connected up to the motor-now-generator and the results were spectacular for regeneration! Only real trouble was, we didn't have a controller in the way and it was an all or nothing dump of energy and as a result was great but relatively unworkable. The driver had to have the ability to turn the feature on and off separately or it was a crash hazard! Too much braking!
Problem with these ebike BLDC controllers is they have safety features that interfere with it.

--LVC, meaning when the battery voltage was suddenly cut in half, the controller would no longer operate, it'd shutdown. So no controlled braking because the controller does all that. It might still act as a 3-phase rectifier, and cause braking that way, but the current could destroy the controller (the FETs would not be running in their normal mode, heating/etc could be excessive). Also, it could require power-cycling the controller at a complete stop to reset it. (see below)

--Even if the controller had a low enough LVC to not shutdown, then removing power from it and then restoring it (a consequence of reconfiguring the pack) while in motion could reset it. At power-on, a number of controllers I've used (dunno about the present two) will not operate the motor unless you begin from a complete stop. If it's already in motion when turned on, it assumes an error condition (sensors, etc) and inhibits operation until the motor comes to a stop on it's own first. Some even have to be power cycled again once stopped to reset the error.


But plug braking using relays would achieve the same massive braking power--I've pondered it in this and/or the CrazyBike2 thread at least once over the years.

The catch is the relays essentially short across the controller phase FETs, so they have to disconnect from the controller first, then perform the braking by shorting the motor phase wires (two for partial braking, three for full braking), then disconnect the phase wire short, then reconnect to the controller.

If any stage of disconnect or reconnect fails, severe damage to the controller can result.

During reconnect, if you're going fast enough for the open-circuit voltage of the spinning motor to be higher than the rated voltage of the FETs, you can blow them then, too.


It also requires massive relays to do this, because they have to be able to handle switching all this current and voltage *under load*, and if you use relays not rated for that they often weld their contacts shut. Very bad news if they did that and then were switched again--direct short across controller/battery/etc.

Also, they have to be rated for the vibration they'll be operating under on-road, or else tehy'll chatter under load, and cause shorts that way, too. Very bad.


It's more practical to just get (or build, as I'm slowly working on) better controllers that can do better braking regardless of battery voltage. :)


I had voted for a pressure transducer in the original juice brakes of the car and having a controller give a more proportional drop out of batteries based on the pressure signal, but the problem there is getting the cells out of commonality of charge It would have been a lot more readily workable if there had been the ability to get at each cell, because then you'd be talking about 60 independent 1.5v cells, and that divides in a lot more ways than just two parallel packs. You could do: 2 X 30, 3 X 20, 4 X 15, 5 X 12, 6 X 10... Five granularities would probably be enough, but with 6 cells pre-packaged into individual batteries, that means that of these 5 (6 counting the whole group), you could only do two of them easily. And, what a hell of a switching setup you'd have to have! Unfortunately, not workable. -shrug-
[/quote]
There are a number of forklifts and some early electric cars that used that system for speed control, and probably braking as well. They all used brushed motors, making it easy to do--no fancy PWM electronics required, unlike with brushless motors.



BTW, I haven't heard back from you on your trike conversion kit info (link to the model you were considering).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 14, 2017 3:55 am

Had a little problem about half a mile from home; just as I reached a right turn and began regen braking, the left motor made the grinding sound you get when youv'e blown FETs in the controller. :/

Since I was almost home and still had the right motor, and didn't need quick acceleration or hard braking, I just turned that controller off and disconnected the motor phase wires (whcih were hot at the connection point only), and continued home uneventfully.

After feeding the dogs I tipped the trike on it's side and examined that phase connection set, and found the problem. Because it was meant as a quick test (that I then forgot to go back and make permanent) I'd just folded over the ends of the motor's phase wire conductors and shoved them into the anderson PP45 housings on the controller cable. As this isn't a low-resistance connection doing it that way, it heated a bit every acceleration and braking, and eventaully distorted the housing plastic until the conductors inside weren't making good contact anymore. There was some evidence of arcing as well.

Since I don't have any unused PP45s that I know of I just cutoff the connectors and directly spliced the motor to the controller. Note that the color order is B-Y Y-B G-G for forward rotation (for potential future need). I didn't solder them, though I did crimp them (just crushing the strands together with the same crimper I do the andersons with) before binding it up in electrical tape and tying it down to the trike frame.

A test ride around the yard, accelerating hard with just that motor, and braking, and no detectable (with fingers) heating in the connections.

At least it wasn't FETs--that woulda sucked. ;)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by wturber » Sep 14, 2017 12:24 pm

amberwolf wrote: After feeding the dogs I tipped the trike on it's side and examined that phase connection set, and found the problem. Because it was meant as a quick test (that I then forgot to go back and make permanent) I'd just folded over the ends of the motor's phase wire conductors and shoved them into the anderson PP45 housings on the controller cable. As this isn't a low-resistance connection doing it that way, it heated a bit every acceleration and braking, and eventaully distorted the housing plastic until the conductors inside weren't making good contact anymore. There was some evidence of arcing as well.
At least it wasn't FETs--that woulda sucked. ;)
Glad it wasn't anything major. I learned the lesson of how connections can come loose myself on my first "real" commute Tuesday. Screws vibrate loose. Whooda thunk. :^)
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by docnjoj » Sep 15, 2017 2:29 pm

I found out that my fuse (35amps) was loose in it's holder and that reduced performance until finally it just completely melted, leaving me stranded for a bit. Removed it from the circuit and wow! The trike accelerated much better with no stutters.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 18, 2017 3:09 am

Hmm. My last post in the thread appears to have disappeared--maybe I only hit preview instead of submit. :( Or maybe I dreamed typing it, cuz it's not in my clipboard magic program either (where I copy/paste everything in case of crashes/etc). :/ I can't remember what exactly it was about, either.



Anyway, had another long trip, about 20 miles, mostly long stretches with no stops, and power usage was only 44wh/mile.

Other than the usual:
-- inattentive and/or aggressive drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists
-- quite a few shout-outs of "cool bike", "great ride", etc.,
there wasn't anything eventful.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 24, 2017 11:41 pm

SB Cruiser now accelerates faster, about 4 seconds to 20MPH from a stop. Maybe 4.5.

The upgrade was slightly complicated.

I started out by taking the Grinfineon 12FET off CrazyBike2 (used to run it's front 9C), along with it's righthand throttle. Eventually I'll probably get the bike fixed up into an ebike again. For now it is not rideable by me, as it has no controller for the one motor left on it (front 9C), so while it could be pedalled, I couldn't do it (it'd have to be in the lowest gear which is too slow to balance).

I used the throttle from the above to replace the one on SBC that I broke the tab off of, as I havent' found a way to make a replacement tab that stays in place without disassembling the throttle to mount it from the inside. (several ideas that work that way ought to fix it).


The Grinfineon is not sensorless capable, so it can't be used on the MXUS 3k until I install hall wires in the motor (it has halls that work, but since neither controller I had on the trike at the time could use them, I only installed phase wires when I rewired the motor, to simplify that and save me effort and time).

The Grinfineon *can* be used on the HSR3548, as that does have hall wires (used to be on CB2's rear wheel). So that's where it'd end up going--but not the first stage.


First stage was to open up the "40A" controller already on that wheel to help it get from the 30-33A it actually gets to what its' supposed to. It has 3 shunts, so adding a fourth similar one should up the current to around 40-45A. No place to actually solder one, so it'll just have to parallel with an existing one.
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Side note, this is a 15FET, not a 12FET; don't know why I always seem to think it's a 12FET when I mention it.

I dug thru my box of dead controllers, and pulled a shunt off an unfixable one,
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then soldered it to the side of one of the existing shunts.
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Using this on the same wheel it's been on, the HSR3548 (rightside), it now pulls 46A. It took about a second off the regular two-wheel acceleration time, around 6 seconds-ish. By itself it takes about 12 seconds. (0-20mph). Braking is slightly harder, too, just enough to notice.

Kirin doesn't really care...just wants to hang around me.
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Stage two, move this controller to the MXUS 3k 4T (leftside) in place of the other 30A sensorless controller. Easy enough; I left it physically bolted to the same spot, just changing which handlebar throttle controls it (leftside now), and which motor it goes to. Tested just to be sure it worked offground, then proceeded to...


Stage three, pulling off the 30A 12FET generic, and replacing with the 40A 12FET Grinfineon. This gets wired to the the rightside throttle and motor (HSR3538), then had to find the right hall/phase combo. This turns out to be B-B G-Y Y-G for both hall and phases, but it only spins in reverse. There is no smooth forward combo. :? Thankfully the controller has a reversing wire, though this messes up my original simple plan of wiring *both* controllers to the reverse button on the bars for backing up. (will now need a relay for this side, or a new button with DPDT NO/NC contacts).


Road testing shows about 4 seconds 0-20MPH with both motors WOT, 103A peak.

Individual controller testing shows

rightside HSR3548 + Grinfineon = 42A peak, ~12 seconds 0-20MPH.

leftside MXUS3k4T + modded generic = 46A peak, ~7 seconds 0-20MPH.


Couple of oddities with this:

46A + 42A is 88A, *NOT* 103A, but 103A is what I get when I use both at the same time. :? If anything I'd expect *lower* peak current using both at the same time vs individually, but that's not what happens.

With 7 seconds for one and 12 seconds for the other, separately, it seems like a really big improvement getting 4 seconds using both at the same time. I'd guess the increased battery current has to do with that, though exactly how the motors interact to get this I don't know.

But the increase in acceleration is significant, if not quite as much as I would like yet (<2-3 seconds is my eventual goal...I'll probably want under a second once I reach 2-3 :lol: )


Braking is going to take some getting used to. It's just enough harder to notice, but the real difference is that now the active braking (EABS) is on the left side, and plain regen is on the right. That means the trike pulls hard to the left now, rather than right, so I have to change all my counter-steering reactions during braking to overcome that--I'm using to steering a tad left during braking, and now that would be a bad reaction to have. :/

I knew this would happen when moving them, but experiencing it vs knowing it are different things.

Because the regen current of one motor is partly negated by the power used on the EABS of the other motor, the peak regen current is only around 21A. I haven't presetnly got separate braking switches for each motor, so I can't separately test for how much current is used by EABS, and how much is regenerated.
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Because I already had Anderson PP45's on the generic 15FET and HSR3548, I opted to just splice on some to the MXUS 3k4T and Grinfineon 12FET for now, rather than wiring direct as they had been before, on their respective motor/controller. The connectors and the wiring heat up significantly though not problematically, with all the acceleration and braking. The hall wires on the Grinfineon/HSR3548 are directly soldered.

The wiring from the Grinfineon is especially long, maybe three feet +, so I think I'll end up shortening the phase wires and removing the connectors (directly splicing the wires), once I've tested the trike a little more (make sure nothing is gonna blow up on a more normal ride). That should eliminate some of the wire heating, and improve performance just a tiny bit (probably not noticeably).

I'm not sure if it's sag at the battery itself (need to put a voltmeter directly on it) but at the CA shunt it drops from 54V start to 46v under max load, finally ending up after a few minutes of testing (about 2Ah worth of battery) at 53v.

There's a few points at which voltage could be dropping from resistance:
--battery cutoff switch up by pedals
--circuit breaker inside cargobox
--anderson sb-50 connectors at either end of circuit breaker and between battery and main wiring harness
--smaller gauge wiring (12?) between cargo area and battery cutoff up front.

I can eliminate the breaker easily by just plugging the SB50s at either end of it together, bypassing it. The other stuff requires more work, so I'll wait to see the results of the voltmeter test at the battery terminals first, then measure drop across each segment of wiring after that if it's not just battery sag.



Oh, and the very short test rides (just up and down the street) resulted in wh/mile over 118! So I think I'll be seeing significantly higher power usage on my work commutes, as there are around a dozen stop/starts each way, in about two and a half miles each way. Then I should see more like "normal" power usage on longer trips with less stop/starts.


And Kirin is still bored
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and so is Yogi
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Eventually even Kirin gave up
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But I wasn't done yet...

The Grin LED headlight is basically cast from epoxy. However, the AZ heat has apparently softened it to a rubbery consistency, kinda hard but tearable rubber. So vibration eventually tore thru the screwmount, with gravity helping to remove it entirely.
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The broken off piece is flexy.
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Since I don't have any adhesives that will glue a new bracket to the light's epoxy housing, and I don't know where the electronics are inside to drill a new hole, if there's even room to do so, I just used a ziptie around it and the old mounting bracket. It probably won't hold because of the flexibility of the epoxy, but it'll do for the moment.
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Another light that needs a new bracket is my left front turn signal; the plastic has been broken for a long time, and I've glued it unsuccessfully (broke along new fracture lines), melted it together (broke at the now-more-fragile melted lines), and ATM is just held on with electrical tape. :roll:
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by Chalo » Sep 26, 2017 5:49 pm

I got a $12 (shipped) 48V to 12V DC-DC converter on eBay, and used it to power sub-$4/pair LED "daytime running lights" strips that are unfocused, but very bright. My biggest expense was the few hours I spent soldering the harness and switch and fastening it all in place.

LED automotive lights have gotten so cheap and effective that there's no good reason to spend a lot of time scratch building e-bike lighting, nor repairing older and less efficient stuff that's broken. If for whatever reason you don't want to use a DC-DC converter, just wire some almost-free car LED units in series at anything between about 11V and 14.5V per module.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by wturber » Sep 26, 2017 6:19 pm

Chalo wrote:I got a $12 (shipped) 48V to 12V DC-DC converter on eBay, and used it to power sub-$4/pair LED "daytime running lights" strips that are unfocused, but very bright. My biggest expense was the few hours I spent soldering the harness and switch and fastening it all in place.

LED automotive lights have gotten so cheap and effective that there's no good reason to spend a lot of time scratch building e-bike lighting, nor repairing older and less efficient stuff that's broken. If for whatever reason you don't want to use a DC-DC converter, just wire some almost-free car LED units in series at anything between about 11V and 14.5V per module.
Yep. I use a SMAKN 48v to 12v 60 watt (overkill) converter (sealed, waterproof about $18) to light up a 7.5 watt MR16 replacement LED spot (pretty bright - 470 lumens I think) and then use 12V LED strips on my chainstays. The LEDs are bright and you can see them from the side quite well also. Very inexpensive. They self-adhere, though I use a few zip ties for insurance. Got 10 of them for $8. I can mail a couple to Amberwolf if he'd like.
20170914_201322Lites_sm.jpg
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 27, 2017 2:10 am

Chalo wrote:LED automotive lights have gotten so cheap and effective that there's no good reason to spend a lot of time scratch building e-bike lighting, nor repairing older and less efficient stuff that's broken. If for whatever reason you don't want to use a DC-DC converter, just wire some almost-free car LED units in series at anything between about 11V and 14.5V per module.
Sometimes I make stuff out of old things (like aquarium lighting segments behind pedal reflectors) because it's easy to do, and fun to be able to say "yeah, I made this out of...." :)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... D#p1105612


Plus, since I usualy have all the stuff already, it costs me nothing but time, which I have a lot more of than money (though I have little of either).

I still have a pair of LED traffic lights (red) I just need to cut traces and rewire into "12v" segments paralleled together, that I want to put on the trike as tail/brake/turn lights, for instance. :) They're about a foot across, so nobody can realistically say they didnt' see them. :lol:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... d#p1249291

ATM, on the trike, I'm using a 4s 20Ah EIG NMC pack for lighting, charged to 16v, to power the lighting. Only reason I'm not using a DC-DC or similar is the car headlight and the air compressor takes too much current at turn-on for any of the ones I've tried so far. The battery would also be required for the horn, but I don't have one on the trike yet, so far it hasnt been necessary, though a handful of situations it'd've been nice to have just to get a driver's attention in a bad situation.

(I use a compressor because the hand/footpumps I've got either all suck or they are too hard for me to use these days, making joints hurt more than I want to deal with).

On CrazyBike2, everything but the headlight (and horn and compressor) are running off a 15V-output wall-charger of some type; it's all LED lighting. The headlight and horn run off an identical 4s EIG pack; these packs have worked great for this for years, with the only disadvantage that they're the size of trade-paperback books. ;)


I have a couple of sevcon automotive-output DC-DCs but they require a 28s-level voltage input to run, so unless I put a pack on each motor independent of the other, but seriesed, then hook the DC-DC across both, I can't use it. (none of my controllers can handle 28s).



On the trike, the turn signals including the one on the left mirror are still incandescent, as is the 3rd brakelight in the center of the lighting bar.

The rightside mirror turn signal is LED. The taillights/brakelights to either side of that are LED, as is the one on the trailer hitch mount. There's a Grin Tech LED headlight to the right of the car headlight, and the downlighting on the underside of the downtube is LED strip in silicone housing, and the handlebar underside downlighting is LED strips from an old set of car headlight casings. Downlighting on the cargo area is LED aquarium lighting.

The turn signals and tail/brakelight on the trailer lighting bar are all LED.

I prefer DOT-rated lighting, because it generally seems more durable, and is larger (bigger surface area = better visibility for the same brightness as a smaller area, as it isn't blinding to anyone, and looks closer than a smaller source).


I've seen nice cheap LED lighting online, but I've also seen too many of them that have pics in the ads that are obviously overexposed to make them look brighter than they actually are, so they could be dim, could be bright, no way to know. Can't trust any of their lumen ratings, either. No idea of quality. So I haven't wanted to waste any of my very few unbudgeted dollars on them, and instead have just looked around locally for used stuff. (locally, new stuff is usually pretty expensive (for me)). Mostly goodwill and other thrift stores, but also clearance aquarium lighting from work on the rare occasion anything affordable turns up.



I keep considering some rolls of waterproof LED strip lights, similar to what Iv'e got on the downtube. I'd get one in amber (for markers and turn signals), one in red (for tail and brake), and one in white (for front lighting). These could be mounted along the frame itself, and could give quite a large surface area. But they would also be a bunch of little point sources, rather than a large single source. There's a few car taillights made this way, and they are more than annoyingly bright becuse of that. If they had a diffuser it'd be different; I could make a diffuser with layers of material out of old LCD panels (which I happen to have kept for such purposes. ;)).

Another issue with the strips is that they don't give the same effect of large surface area automotive lighting, cuz they're not the same shape--of course I can put them all side by side in hand-sized or larger areas to fix that. Still need the diffuser.




All that said, if I had money to potentially waste on it, I'd probably go buy some brand-new LED modules, and a good heavy-duty DC-DC. And a bunch of other things, too. :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 27, 2017 2:28 am

wturber wrote:7.5 watt MR16 replacement LED spot (pretty bright - 470 lumens I think
If that doesn't have a horizon so it only shines on the road, you might look into some of the posts about using mirrors with LEDs to create one. It'll help keep from blinding oncoming traffic, pedestrians, cyclists, etc., while putting more light on the ground for you to see by.
I think most of it was by friendly1uk, IIRC:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... D#p1010733
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... D#p1003619
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1042304

and then use 12V LED strips on my chainstays. The LEDs are bright and you can see them from the side quite well also. Very inexpensive. They self-adhere, though I use a few zip ties for insurance. Got 10 of them for $8. I can mail a couple to Amberwolf if he'd like.
I appreciate the thought--I might eventually take you up on that, but ATM it's amber ones I'm after for turn signals and such (or white, to be used behind amber or red reflectors to make lights with diffusers and reflector ability).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by wturber » Sep 27, 2017 9:06 pm

amberwolf wrote: If that doesn't have a horizon so it only shines on the road, you might look into some of the posts about using mirrors with LEDs to create one. It'll help keep from blinding oncoming traffic, pedestrians, cyclists, etc., while putting more light on the ground for you to see by.
I think most of it was by friendly1uk, IIRC:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... D#p1010733
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... D#p1003619
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1042304

I think the headlight is fine. I used to run the same headlight over 20 years ago using a 20 watt halogen spot powered by a 12v 7ah SLA under my seat. It was good for one morning/evening back and forth commute. The winter temps (shorter days) are probably all that kept it from melting. Anyway, that experience taught me that all you need is thoughtful aiming. I aim slightly right of center and so that the apex of the main beam's circle is approximately at the horizon or slightly below. Given the narrow 10 degree spot and the fact that I'm typically riding on the far right of the road, it is unlikely that oncoming drivers will ever get a flash of the light's main throw. I can easily tweak the aim while riding if necessary.

I'm sure that I suffer more from the overly bright and poorly aimed headlights on cars and especially trucks than they ever suffer from me. I judge success in my aiming by how well I see the road ahead and if anybody flashes their high beams at me. None so far. The light has a color temperature of 2700K - definitely on the warm side - which should be a bit less bothersome for others at night. I see the road ahead well enough to ride at 20-25mph. Though on dark roads with no streetlights, 20mph is better.
amberwolf wrote: I appreciate the thought--I might eventually take you up on that, but ATM it's amber ones I'm after for turn signals and such (or white, to be used behind amber or red reflectors to make lights with diffusers and reflector ability).
Just drop me a note if you want a couple. They came in a pack of 8 or 10, so I have extras. Best value for the dollar I've spend on this project at about $1 each. They are bright and noticeable. But I don't consider them blindingly bright. I think the curved clear rubber that they are sealed underneath may have a tendency to spread the bright spots out a bit into wider spots. That and perhaps the fact that they are red in color. I can imagine how yellow, blue or white versions might be a problem. Either way, using them with a diffuser of some sort should work well too.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by Chalo » Sep 27, 2017 9:41 pm

amberwolf wrote: If that doesn't have a horizon so it only shines on the road, you might look into some of the posts about using mirrors with LEDs to create one. It'll help keep from blinding oncoming traffic, pedestrians, cyclists, etc., while putting more light on the ground for you to see by.
Oncoming traffic, peds, and cyclists already deal with 1000 lumens per auto headlight, aimed however the murderist likes and customized ad nauseum. I say use as much light as you want and aim it at windshield level. I'll change my mind about that when murderists stop getting a free pass to kill peds and cyclists simply by saying they didn't see 'em.

The only reason I'll point my light down into the road is so I can see the road better.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 28, 2017 1:02 am

Well, I'm more of a mind to treat people the way I'd like to be treated. Sometimes people take that kind of example and learn from it. Most of the time they don't, but it is always worth a try.

But if I just treat *all* people the same way bad people treat me, it just makes the world a worse place to be, because more people will emulate that kind of attitude more easily.

So I'd rather spread a little bit of good than a lot of bad.

And I'd really rather not treat the many good people badly, just because of a few bad people.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 28, 2017 1:43 am

wturber wrote:I think the headlight is fine. <snip>
If it does what you want, it's your call--you can tell how it actually works on the road, and I can only surmise/guess. :)


I'm sure that I suffer more from the overly bright and poorly aimed headlights on cars and especially trucks than they ever suffer from me.
Oh, I definitely understand that, and have the same problem. I just subscribe to the method noted in my reply to Chalo above that I prefer spreading nice by example wherever possible. Sometimes I fail at that,but I try.


I'm sure the front of my trike as a whole is on the bright side, with the downtube white LED strips facing forward/down at about 45 degrees, plus the Kia headlight in lowbeam mode, plus the Grin tech 12-LED headlight pointed down to about the same focus point as the main headlight (a bit closer to the trike), plus the downward-aimed white LEDs under the handlebars. But I've parked it on the street and in parking lots next to friends' cars/trucks with their headlights on, and it's not any brighter than theirs, and it's brightness is over a larger average surface area--though the LEDs on the strip appear bright pinpoints because they're spaced so far apart, despite the slight diffusion of the silicone sheath over the strip.


The thing I find most problematic myself with point lights is that since I wear glasses, smudges/scratches on the lenses cause glares and flares with point sources; the brighter and smaller it is the worse the problem. I'm not the only one with the issue; there's other riders, pedestrians, and drivers with it. And it happens on windshields, too, which could double the problem for those behind them that also have the problem with their glasses.


Just drop me a note if you want a couple. They came in a pack of 8 or 10, so I have extras. Best value for the dollar I've spend on this project at about $1 each. They are bright and noticeable. But I don't consider them blindingly bright. I think the curved clear rubber that they are sealed underneath may have a tendency to spread the bright spots out a bit into wider spots. That and perhaps the fact that they are red in color. I can imagine how yellow, blue or white versions might be a problem. Either way, using them with a diffuser of some sort should work well too.
They probably aren't blindingly bright...and any lights are better than no lights. :lol:

Red is easier at night to deal with when it's bright than white is; yellow not so bad cuz it's mostly just used for turn signals, and/or is already next to headlights much brighter than the yellow markers.

Blue isn't a legal color on anything but emergency vehicles here in AZ, so I don't recommend using it just so there's no chance of harassment by LEOs about that. (I used to think they wouldn't care about that sort of thing on a bicycle, but I've seen them stop cyclists for non-listed colors of lighting, including a gal riding around with Christmas lights on her bike during the season. So I only use the regular vehicular lighting colors in the appropriate places, with the exception that I use white downlighting everywhere, as the exclusion of white lights other than on teh front of a vehicle is only if the lighting itself is visible, not if the reflected light from it is. (otherwise non-amber / non-red license plate lights would all be illegal).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 28, 2017 2:32 am

I noted down the data from yesterday's and today's work commutes, to see how different performance is now (after the upgrade). It's not actually much different from usual; I guess the shorter time spent accelerating makes up for the greater power used doing it.

Yesterday:
54v start
52.2v rest
45.5Vmin
4.774Ah
4.8266Ah fwd
0.0506Ah regen
52.7wh/mile
241.1 wh
1% regen
-20.3Amin
122.6Amax
4.547miles
20.1MPH max
13.9MPH avg
19m37s triptime
3039miles total odo

BTW, I didn't see an actual peak more than 3900w on the display, but if I multiply the highest current by the lowest voltage, I get around 5500w!


Today:
52.2vstart (didn't charge beween commutes)
51.6vrest
44.7Vmin
4.538Ah
4.5681Ah fwd
0.0281Ah regen
49.6wh/mile
225.63 wh
0.6% regen
-19.9Amin
125.9Amax
4.559miles
20.3MPH max
13.9MPH avg
19m34s triptime
3044miles total odo

And about 5600w peak by the same Vmin * Amax math, again don't see that on screen so must be too short a peak to make it to the CA's display. I do wish the CA logged the actual peak watts, in case it's higher than the math indicates (Amax might occur at a higher voltage, earlier in the pack discharge cycle).




While parking at work, I noticed a crack in the frame I hadn't seen before, but it could've been there a while. I haven't got a pic of it yet (camera battery dead and on charger now, celphone won't capture it), but it's on the top end of the rightside tie/support from the "toptube" under the steering tiller. It's not at the weld, but just past it--these 1/2" tubes are thin and just basic steel, not very good. I had problems with this type of tube cracking in other applications, usually near a weld, so no huge surprise.

Since the plastic side cover there is riveted on (of course the bolted-on cover is on the *other* side with undamaged tubing), I'll have to detach it first before I can repair the tubing, probalby by weld-filling thru the crack, and then grinding it flat again.

Have to wait till my next free timespace, hopefully this coming week.

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