The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by ddk » Jun 17, 2016 4:15 pm

amberwolf wrote:...the 12v (16V really) lighting system is totally separate from the motor system, except for a common ground.
culprit of most electrical issues. (Kinda like dems vs reps)
"How can we play Hot Wheels without lighter fluid? " -Serge

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jun 18, 2016 4:03 am

True, but it's been running this way for over a year without issue. :)

(and CrazyBike2's is the same common-ground setup, running for years this way now, with various different power sources from SLA to NiMH to EIG NMC to non-isolated DC-DC, etc).

Because the inability of the left motor to push the trike from a stop also started at the same time, I suspect a controller problem, or motor / phase wire problem, but regardless of what problem it might be I still cant' see how with my wiring layout how any power could get from the motor to only *one* side of the turn signals--it "should" do it to both, or neither.

It also doesn't affect the tail/brake lights.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jun 19, 2016 12:15 am

I remmebered one wiring section I hadn't opened up and checked in detail, the spaghetti at the rear lighting bar / trailer hitch connection.

So I took that apart and found nothing amiss, though it is a mess of splices and add-ons, etc. I redid it with new wire (well, recycled wire but different unspliced sections), and added a brake-specific light just above the Grin Tech 8-LED tail/brake light, using the old HarborFreight hitchcover LED light hooked up via diode to the brakelight lever's connection to the taillights.

The original brake light was simply brightening the taillights about double the tail-only brightness level. I did that by putting a handful of diodes in series, from the +16V lighting power V+, to the + end of the tailight LEDs inside the old HOnda tailight cases. The brake lever simply shorts across the diodes, to put the full 16V across the taillgihts (normally they see about 12-13V), causing a current increase that makes them brighter.

The new brake light isn't also a tailight--it ONLY comes on when braking. This is done by adding another diode with it's anode to the brakelever output wire (that used to go to the cathode of the other diode string), and it's cathode to where it used to go. Then the new brakelight's + wire goes to the anode of the new diode, so it's only getting power when the brakelever shorts to V+.

This also very slightly dims the taillgihts but it isn't enough to really notice. They're still bright enough to see in daylight. :)

And now with the new center brakelight, it's much easier to see when I'm applying brakes (well, actually signalling a stop, because the brakelight lever is totally separate from the actual brake lever, specifically so I can just signal a stop without engaging brakes at all, for when I coast to a stop.

Unfortunately none of this changed the problem I set out to troubleshoot.

That one I'm nearly certain now that it's the controller itself, probably a blown FET. Have to take the controller off the trike (or rather, flip it on it's side) and open it up to test it. :/

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jun 21, 2016 1:33 pm

The lighting problem just "went away" yesterday, I have no idea why.

The lefthand controller still can't start the trike from a stop, so there is still something wrong there, but it isn't presently feeding back into the righthand turn signal (which I still don't understand how that could happen, without feeding into *all* of the lights via the common ground).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jun 27, 2016 2:00 pm

After several months, I finally got the other 3 supports for the rack welded on, so it isn't held on by cargo straps to the dog crateon the cargo bed.

I dind't really have a lot of choice, because since it's gotten hot the plastic of the crate has gotten softer during my midday commute to work, which then squishes udner the weight of the rack and the cargo pod on top, plus the pull of the cargo straps, which I then have to tighten down(sometimes two ro three times during the commute), which squishes it more, etc etc.

To test the sturdiness of the supports I took the whole crate out, so it doesnt' ahve any support except the new vertical struts (made of 1" square tubing rather than the 1/2" I'd used the first time).

I did not yet get to make up any cross bracing, because I have a totally different design idea for the rack and deck, after I test it out on the Raine Trike deck first, whcih is being built now.

But this should last at least long enough to test that, as it lasted most of a year before breaking with the thinner struts. :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 02, 2016 2:27 am

No problmes with the new rack supports yet, but they are creaky (or the cargo area frame is; can't tell which).

Because I don't really need the hitch to stick out the back so far (over a foot behind the rear edge of the cargo deck), when I don't have the dog crate on there (which I no longer really have a need for without Tiny), I decided this morning to take it off and redrill the mount holes to allow it to mount further in (or still out in presnet positin if needed later).

But when I pulled it off, after undoing the nuts, I found one of the bolts (which I'd cut from an old bike wheel axle and welded to the trike frame) had sheared off, some time back based on the rust, and so only 3 bolts have been holding the trailer hitch mount to the trike for quite a while (possibly since I put it on there, or shortly after).

So before I put it back on there I need to reweld the bolt to the trike frame.

Thought I had pics but they're not on the card, so I guess I didn't actually grab the camera earlier. Have to do ti tomorrow.

Oh, and remember that half-barrel I was thinking about turning into a cargo pod over the top of the rack? well, I will have two of them soon, so instead I can set them up so they fit over the tires when i redo the frame, and make both fenders and cargo pods out of them without nearly as much modification to them as it would've taken otherwise.

All they need is lids with hinges over the former "bottom" which gives the most space inside, and use the former top as the bottom cover over the tire/fender. The flat sides will end up facing each other on either side of the cargo bed.

I'm not totally sure how practical these will be, but they will give it a unique appearance (as if it wasnt' already). I'll probably see about staining them darker, with black (or very dark) stain for the "bands" around them, if I can find any of my old staining stuff (might not still exist after the post-fire cleanup about 3 years ago).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 02, 2016 2:24 pm

Some pics of the broken bolt and the rack supports and welds. Didn't get to reweld the bolt yet; already 100F out there and humid, had to go back inside after some cleanup and yard work that took priority finally wore me out. Expected to get to 103F or so today, but it's been consistently a couple degrees hotter than expected on most of the sunny days so far.

One problem with the rack and the present backend is that the weight on the back corners is bending the thin narrow tubing downward there, though that won't be an issue with the new design. When i originally did the rack it wasn't either cuz it was supported by the fender frames, which have triangulation structure that kept it from being a problem, while the back corners don't in the present design (will in the new).
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Oh, also a concept pic of the new back end.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 13, 2016 2:01 am

For a while after the above, typical power usage in current configuration, on my work commute, is around 40-45wh/mile. On days with no wind at all, it can be as low as 39wh/mile. I guess there's significantly less drag without the crate on there, and also without the crate and trailer hitch, there's a bit less weight, too, so that make ssome small difference during the many accelerations on teh commute.

But last night the problem with the left motor and right turnsignal flashing started up again, and the commute efficiency dropped to around 50wh/mile just to get home. :/

I looked at all the wiring again today, but still cant find anything wrong, though there must be, and whatever it is is intermittent.

I also finally got to gluing the styrofoam insulation into the top of the "trunk", which is just parts of some of the fish-transport-coolers I save from work now and then. It's almost an inch or so thick, but it makes a big difference to how cool stuff stays inside there on my midday work commute. Sometime I still need to add insulation to the sides, but that's not nearly as big a deal as it is for that top that is directly under the sun.

No troulbe with the new supports for the rack yet, but it's only been a week and a half or so. Took quite a while for the originals to fail.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 15, 2016 1:57 pm

I found the problem that caused the turn signal issue, though I still don't understand how it *could* cause it.

The positive wire from the righthand turnsignal on the mirror had been intermittently pinched under the cable lock I keep stored on the bars there. I couldn't find the problem because whenever I would lift the wire, the split insulation would "heal" back around it and hide the crack in the wire. :(

But last night as I turned the trike on to leave work, the righthand signal was turned fully on, on all three of them. It would blink brighter a tiny bit if I turned the blinker on.

So...somehow the frame is not "grounded", but it is "powered", shorted to something in the traction system in the left motor--probably a motor phase wire given the symptoms previously seen.

I'll still have to find that problem (before it causes something worse than this issue), but at least the blinker problem is fixed (with a little electrical tape).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 16, 2016 2:55 pm

So far after taping the handlevbar and then taping the wires, running the wires under the bar to secure them down, rather than spiraled around, no turn signal issues again.

Ido still have the problem of the left motor phases having one shorted to the frame somewhere, probablyy at the axle. i had a quick look today gbut didn't see anything. i need to take the left wheel off so i can see the axle end wire exit, which is bvlocked by the clamping dropout.

Maybe tomororow, after Cvin drops off the Cemoto bike and parts from grin for me to upgrade it, but before it gets too hot outside to do stuff out there (once it does Ican then just w ork on the Cemoto upgrade).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 19, 2016 2:18 am

Fire is bad.

On my way to work today, about 1/4 mile from the house, the left motor started acting really juddery like a shorted phase, so I slowed to a stop and then smelled smoke. By the time I got off the trike there was actual fire under the seat area, smoke coming from the lighting battery compartment. First I grabbed the burning wires from that to the main trike wire harness and yanked to rip them out and remove the short there, and put out that fire, then yanked the main traction battery plug off in case any power wires were shorted anywhere, then:

Knowing that this would probably flash into fire when i opened it, but having no choice, I took a deep breath and opened the lid, which did cause a flashover, but quickly went out, leaving just the flaming corrugated plastic wire covers; I grabbed the battery and yanked it out, then the toolbag and grabbed the wire cutters out of that and cut the burning wires off at the terminals, to save the battery itself.

(added this I forgot: the melting/burning plastic, and the wire that had been hot enough to ignite that plastic, were what I had to grab , so my right hand has some burns on it; they're not bad but they do hurt. That combined with my aching left hand (from most likely arthritic joints aggravated by our present weather) made walking (with my cane) kinda tough at work today. )

THen I made sure the rest of the fire was out, taped over the battery terminals and put it and the toolbag in my "trunk" on the rack, and tossed the burned up wire bits into the toolbox/lighting battery box; it's gonna need some serious cleaning to get the smell out of there.

I used the multimeter to test for a short on the main power input, and found none, so I hooked up the main traction battery again, and got normal readings on the CA. But no response from either throttle, which meant that either both throttle cables (one to each controller, separate) were damaged by fire or the brake line was (cuz that goes to both in parallel). Either way I didnt' have energy/time to troulbeshoot taht on the side of the road in the hot sun (since the cloudy day had turned sunny and hot a while earlier), so I pedalled it slowly back home.

ONce there I called work to let them know I was gonna be late, and hwat had happened, then put the trike on it's side in the shade of a tree in the backyard, and started checking out the wiring.

First I found that the brake was indeed the problem...but not the brake switch wire--rather it was the wire that goes back to the Grin Tech taillight, which is used to trigger it's flashing mode (normally it's on steady). I cut that (just because it was the first brake wire I could easily disconnect), and then retested and both motors would then work.

I don't know what happened to cause that to be shorted, but obviously something did--but it wasnt' the fire, because there is no damage to that wire and it doesnt' run anywhere near that area. :?

Anyway, the left motor ran really rough, like a shorted phase wire, evenwhne hand spun, so i started by cutting the green phase wire, and that made hand-spinning it easy so lucky twice in a row on which wire to cut....but I don't yet know if it is a controller FET or a motor wire or winding that is the actual problem. That will take more time to troubleshoot, which I didn't have today.

So at that point, I called it quits on the SB Cruiser, cuz I didn't think I could deal with the potentila issues, rewiring, etc., in less than several hours at a minimum. I parked it in teh shed in case it rains.

I detached the main traction battery, took the stuff out of the trunk and toolbox/etc, and moved it all over to CrazyBike2 (which wasnt' as easy as it sounds, but I am too tired to post all about it tonight, so that will come tomorrow). Then I rode CB2 to and from work for today's commute.

Sorry there's no pics yet; didnt' have any time to take them.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 19, 2016 1:48 pm

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Jul 21, 2016 1:52 pm

A little note, prompted by ddk's observation in his solar trike about his trike vs traffic:

CrazyBike2 is big, but not as big as SB Cruiser--mostly SBC is taller, and a little wider but only a very few inches. SBC "looks" a lot bigger than CB2, and that is probably why cars go way around the trike, usually all the way into the next lane, but less of them do that for the bike.

Lighting on each is pretty similar, so that's probably not it.

In either case, they don't pass me nearly as closely as on a "normal" bicycle, where I might get almost run off the road on almost a regular basis, but they are on average considerably closer than on the trike.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Aug 06, 2016 8:03 pm

Once it cooled down a little this evening, from 109F to 107F, and humidity has dropped a bit from 73% down to 24%, with the sun no longer shining onto the backporch area but having to go thru various trees instead to reach it, I finally got a chance to begin disassembling the trike to rewire it, and I found at least one of the (intermittent) shorts.

Of course, as soon as I found the problem, assholes across the street opened up the doors on their big red noisemachine truck and turned up their "music" so loud that it can be heard and felt even inside the house with closed doors/windows, so there is now no way to continue working on the trike or anything else outside until they go away or maybe if I'm lucky their truck catches fire and explodes, taking them with it.

Police aren't going to do anything, so no point in calling anymore--they've made it crystal clear that they don't give a flying frock what happens around here unless someone is actually being murdered at the time (and maybe not even then).

Anyway, there's no short in the cable at the moment, or to the frame from the shield (as the cable itself was pinched between plastic of leftside storage box and the frame under the seat, with shield only exposed on the plastic side). So I'll have to cut open the cable to find out what failed inside, once there is time and no sonic assault outside.

But if it did somehow have an internal short to the shield, and then that to the frame, it might've made part of a path between main lighting battery power, and the other part might've been in the battery cable itself to the frame somewhere. NO way to know on that as that cable melted and burned.

When there isn't an unstoppable criminally-loud vehicular assault on the neighborhood happening, I might be able to go out and finish the stripdown process, so I can then start the rewiring.

Though, once I have it stripped down, I'll also be doing some physical modifications here and there; not sure of the extent of them yet. Kinda depends on what ideas I get while doing the work.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Sep 28, 2016 10:40 pm

Ok, so the above shows how the light power / turn signal was shorted to the frame, and why it was intermittent. But it still didn't explain why it pulsed with rotation of the left wheel.

That I found the reason for today, when I finally got to get the wheel off the ttrike, and then take the wheel apart once I found no problems with the wire itself outside the axle.

First I tested the controller itself, just sticking the phase wires into an Ezee v1 hub and listening to it spin (backwards in this case), which was enough to tell me the controller is ok, so I didn't try any other phase combinations or the halls, as it didnt' matter.

Then I pulled the wheel off, and metered from axle to green phase wire (the one I had to cut before), and found intermittent continuity as I rotated the axle past a certain spot. So there was a short inside the motor to something on the cover, but I couldnt' thnk what it might be. the cover has to come. But it's not quite taht simple.

Previously, before I made the clamping dropouts, then whenever I had ot get the wheel off and on for tire changes and stuff, it was sucha huge PITA to keep the axle spacer tube in place while alinging and installing the axle into the dropout slot, then turning it to push it back into the final spot, so I gorilla-glued the spacer onto the axle...which means the cover can't come fof cuz the bearing in teh cover is blocked by the spacer.

I can easily twist the spacer off, but not with the freewheel in teh way, so first I have to take the freewheel off. There's not enough axle to put a nut/washer on as this is a front motor, not a rear, so I had to get creative in how to secure the wrench and freewheel removal tool to the wheel to be able to get the fw off.

I tried a couple things first, but I just couldnt' put enough pressure on the center of the wrench/fw tool to hold it on the fw *and* put enough torque on the wrench to start turning the fw. I realized I would need to clamp the whole thing togethre along the line of the axle, but I don't have any clamps big enogh to do that....but I do have cargo straps, and a big table leg.
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Took two tries to get it strapped down right, but as soon as I tried it the second way, it wrenched the fw just fine.

I got the fw off, then pliers to spin the spacer tube off. Then easy to unbolt the cover, grab the rim/tire, and press the other (solid) end of the axle against the ground to pop the cover loose and wiggle it off. the process it popped th bearing out of the cover anyway, because there was still just enouhg glue residue to keep it from sliding off, making my other work to get the fw and spacer off kinda pointless. :/

I pushed the bearing back down (with the spacer tube, tapping on it with a wrench) for now Later on after some of the other work, I scraped the axle and eventually pulled the bearing off, and put it back in teh cover after a bit of work ont eh cover itself. Even later I sanded the axle down to clean off all the stuff to make it easy to slide it back on.

That work was needed because I found the cause of the short: The washers that held the cover and old threaded hub flange piece together had been bent up in two places, and had obvious arc-burns on them.
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I ground off the offending edges and smoothed the rest around that area,
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The green pahse wire had been cut along a half inch or so, with obvious arc-burns on it, andinsluation burnd away, too, with about half the starands still left.
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Guess that explained the rotating pulsing short to the frame. :roll:

I also found the black hall wire (ground) was ripped off inside, thankfully with still enouh sticking thru the center of the stator holes to let me splice to it (as I can't take the cover off the other side without cutting off the plate wleded to that end of the axle).
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WIth the damage to the green wire inside the motor, and too little wire outside left ot pull thru to fix it, plus the black hall wire, I decided to pull all that wiring out of the axle into the motor and remove it, and use the leftover phase wire bits I had left from when I repalced the ones on the x5304. Took a while ut I figured out a way to pull it htru the hollow axle, by staggering the wires and pulling htur the bundle a bit at a time. Easy after the second phase wire.
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Removed the old wiring, and soldered the "new" directly to the the winding points for phases, and spliced into the hall wires. Insulated and tied it all down.
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Reinstalled cover, spacer, freewheel, put it back on the trike, hooked up hpase wires colr to color as it was before, and tested it ok offgroud, noload current normal. hooked up hall wires color to color, and stillw orked, but found that as before, with a load, it still is oviously not reading hte halls (though they switch as they shoudl).

I left htem hooked up anyway, as it operates the same with or without them.

Controller itself looks fine, and the halls read all the way to the PCB solder pads, I uess it's just like the other one, where despite having the wires it's sipmly programmed to ignroe them and run sensorless.
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Rode around the yard, using the A123 pack, and it worked just as it did before the problem started, (a few months ago, I think it was.).

So now there's still a buch of stuff ot finish, but at least the mtoors work so its usable if I need i.t

Would've done some mroe stuff but it wasa bout to rain so I put all the stuff up and it began raining just as i got the last of it put away, as it was almost completely dark.

We'll see if I get any more done tomorrow.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Oct 01, 2016 12:42 am

With Teddy's help
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I got a bit of the mechanical stuff done to the trike yesterday and today, mostly moving the seat forward about 5 inches, and replacing the one-piece cranks with 3piece cranks in a BB forward of the old by about that same amount, and down a bit; also adding a 3-speed IGH as jackshaft in the pedal drivetrain.

First up was moving the seat. This was first to move center of mass forward, to help with traction on front wheel (for eventually adding a motor up there too, as well as braking and steering), and to give me more cargo area. It was also so that I could just add the new BB in front of the frame, at least during testing, before modifying the frame in case stuff didn't work out as expected.

This is where it was before:
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and this is where it was to be moved to:
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It was *almost* straightforward, cutting the seat's support plate welds to the frame, sliding it forward, and rewelding. But I also needed to "lower" the front edge of the seat a bit, because the frame goes up at a slight angle, which would make the seat higher than it was before, and I don't need that. The only "easy" way to fix it was to cut the frame where it curves either side of the tube that supports the front of the seat, then cut some of that tube off at the top, then bend the frame down a bit and reweld it to that tube. Then weld the seat support plate back to that frame.

So now it is like this:
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and I had to move the handlebars forward a bit, but I didn't move them as far as I did the seat, to try out a closer position for a while.
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Adding the BB...was a process. :/

At first I was just going to take the cranks out of the old shell
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cut just a BB shell off a junk frame, and weld it directly to the front flat side of the "downtube". But I also wanted to add the IGH as jackshaft, to get a low and high gear (especially the low). So I decided for the moment to combine the two, as right now would be easy to do so simply by not just taking the BB shell off the frame, but to take the BB shell, chainstays, and rear dropouts all as one piece.
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Since the big square tubing I have as the "downtube" is wider than the space between the stays at the BB, I cut a section from their inside area that would let me put the BB almost up against it (I couldn't get the angle grinder in there far enough to actually get right up to the BB).
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Then I slid it back over the triek frame and put the IGH into the dropouts, tighteing the nuts to squeeze the stays together to hold the unit over the "mixte-ish" vertical supports near the front of the trike frame, till I had it all aligned and could tack weld it.
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I used small chainrings on a swaged-together steel crank at first, because I really only wanted the smallest chainring on it, and I didn't have anything else with that small a ring handy.

By this time, Teddy and Yogi had given up on me, and were waiting in the kitchen for noms.
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So that was it for Thursday. Friday I continued, though:

After tackwelding and verifying chainlines ought to be good enough, I dug out my box of old freewheel clusters,
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and took one apart for the 20-tooth sprocket, like this one but with a smaller center hole
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to match the sprocket already on the IGH and the ones on the rest of the drivetrain (on the input and output of the trike's rear jackshaft).
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The IGH is a Shimano 333, probably the worst of the ones I have, but the only one I could easily find (I already had it out for the Raine Trike project that is presently on hold). I do know where a Sturmy Archer AW is, still in a 27" wheel, but I don't know where I put the shifter for it, and it doesn't have the shifter pull chain/etc attached to it, so I wouldn't easily be able to come up with something to shift it. The SHimano still has it's shifter rod on there, and it works by pushing, using a lever built into it, so all I have to do is make something to pull up on it in 3 steps to make it shift like it should. Not all that hard--I can probalby use an old friction shifter to do this, with it's cable clamped to the shifter pull rod.
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I would've used a sprocket with less teeth (so the gearing would end up even lower, as this is the output of the IGH to the system), but unfortunately anything smaller than 20 teeth would not let the chain clear the flange of the IGH (whcih is where I would have to mount the sprocket).

I chose a sprocket that was almost exactly the same inner diameter as the outer diameter of the IGH's body just to the right of the spoke flange. I only had to grind off the 3 "bumps" used to engage it with the freewheel body, and lightly file the inside circumference to take just the surface off, and it would tightly wiggle on the IGH body (wiht the IGH's actual input sprocket removed temporarily).

Then I used a mechanical pencil to mark where all the spoke holes would be on the sprocket. I can't drill thru the sprocket; it's too hard for my bits (especially the tiny ones I'd have to use for this), but I can cut slots that line up with the sprocket holes, and since the ID of the sprocket fits the IGH so tightly, it won't wiggle around out of round.

I only have 6 nuts for the screws that are small enough to go thru the spoke holes in teh flange (though I have at least a dozen of the screws, all of this saved off of something I took apart for pieces ages ago). So I only cut 6 slots; if I have troulbe with it in use during testing I'll cut more slots and figure out what to use to secure it. (other than welding, which I would rather not do).

Remounted the IGH, and shortened the original chain from the rear end to the cranks so it now fits the IGH. Tension there is adjusted by moving the IGH forward in the dropouts a bit; was almost perfect at the most rearward position (just luck, not planning). Chain also clears both under and over the frame with the IGH where it is, which is also more luck than planning. :oops:
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I had a chain I was going to use for the front, but it is a multi-gear chain, and is too narrow to fit over the IGH's input sprocket. :( So I used the remainder of the chain from the above step, plus another small length leftover from when I first put this together a year and a half ago, and made one just long enough to use with a derailer and all three chainrings of the cranks, to let me try an experiment.

Once I had all the chains on, I dug out a basic derailer, and installed that at the IGH, to keep the input sprocket and chain aligned and to to take up the slack of the pedal chain. This will allow me to experiment with the front sprocket size by manually moving it from ring to ring, to find the best balance of pedal without power vs doing more than ghost pedalling while motoring along, or even just end up leaving it this way, to be able to switch between them as needed.
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I beefed up the tack welds, so they would hold up to pedal torque, and took it out for a test ride around hte yard. I found I could not start pedalling at all in the "overdrive" gear (rod pushed in partway), even on the smallest front chainring. In the underdrive gear of the IGH, (rod pushed in farthest), I could start pedalling relatively easily, though it still hurt to get started, it didnt' hurt that bad to keep going around the yard, in smallest front chainring.

To see what effect the Shimano Biopace rings I prefer would have, I swapped them in.
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(I also had to change out the cartridge BB I tried first, because it has a really bad bearing that allwos it to wiggle around a lot; I went with the older style with bearings in cages instead, pulled off the Diamondback Coil frame from Mdd0127 that I used to test the Fusin geared kit with). The Biopace are larger rings by several teeth, but I hoped teh differnet shape would help enough to make up for that.

It didn't, exactly, but it did help even though they are not being used at the angle they were designed for (sinc I am not standing over them, but am seated behind them, it changes the way they work). To really work correctly and help the most, I would need to somehow rotate the chainrings around the crank spider. I don't reall have a good idea on how I could do that with what I have around here, not easily.

Another issue is that ATM the BB is too far down and forward, so I can't really push all the way down without sitting on the edge of the seat.

But still, first mission accomplished: to let me pedal the trike around without power if I have to. Previously I could sort of do this, with extreme effort, for short lengths, and the one time I *had* to pedal home a couple miles I almost killed myself with the pain and effort, and that was only half the distance I was going to have to go if I hadn't been able to recharge at that point. It still wont' be easy, but it will be possible.

I still need an even lower gear, which I can get by going back to the small chainrings on the steel crank, but I'd like an even lower gear than that.

So....what I *could* do is to use a larger input gear on the IGH, by bolting a larger sprocket onto the existing one. (or weld onto it, if I have to). I went ahead and bolted a 28t onto the 20t, using four 1/4-20 bolts, but I'm not sure how it will hold up, as it's only the bolt tension keeping it in-round. Can't test it till tomorrow, because it's 1am and I can't use the grinder to cut off the excess bolt length that interferes with the chainstay and dropout. :(

But I'm most of the way there.

Once I'm done with the testing phase, I'll be cutting the BB off the chainstays, and moving it from the front of the frame into the space where the old one was, but above and forward of it. I might have to notch the main "downtube" to install it, but I'll avoid that if I can.

The IGH won't have any support then, so before I do that I need to bend the seatstay stubs I left on there and add a bit more (turned out kinda short) so they will be welded to the "toptube" above the IGH, and then add tubes at teh bottom rear of the dropouts to connect to the "downtube" below the IGH. Then I can remove the former chainstays. It may not be a sstrong horizontally this way, so it might require design changes later once it's tested in actual use...but I don't expect to ahve to put a lot of pedal torque thru it very often; it's really only a backup...albeit a complex one. :oops:

I also considered adding a front derailer, but there's no easy way to mount one; I'd have to weld in a tube to clamp it to, or weld it to the frame itself, or make a bracket, etc.
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Further changes will include:

--extending the cargo rack to meet the back of the seat again, and moving the "trunk" forward with it.

--moving the forward rack supports so they don't connect to the fenders, but rather to the frame below the seat, which will be extended outward to line up with the outer rear frame, and forward to almost meet the front edge of the seat again.

--extending the cargo bed area forward as well.

--putting the battery box(es) behind the seat to either side, about where they were but turned lengthwise, behind the accessory/tool/etc boxes. The one on the left side will be joined by a similar one on the right, which unfortunately is too tall to be mounted upright unless I move the frame down. I might be able to do that, though, and I'll do it on both sides if I do.
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--I considered moving the whole cargo bed down, but the "axle" will still cut thru it at the original height, unless I totally cut apart and rebuild the frame, so that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

--reweld the bolts for the trailer hitch frame on there, more forward than they are now, as I don't need it to stick out as far backward for a kennel/crate since that can go more forward now, too, with the seat moved.

The one thing I'm not sure about yet is cutting away the angled down/rearward "seatstays" that presently connect the seat area with the rear frame, and probably give significant stiffness to the system. Once I move the forward rack supports, they may not be needed anymore, though, so we'll see. If I don't cut them away, then I still cant' use most of the forward cargo deck area for big stuff (like dog crates), just the areas to eithe rside and above them, which defeats a good part of why i am doing this.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2016 3:50 am

I decided to go for broke and redesign much of the whole rear end from the deck on up, though I left alone the whole wheel attachment and basic undeframe so far. I may cut away the horizontal crossmembers and replace them with an X brace...maybe not; it's already a lot of work. :)

First, though I cut the extra bolt length away and slightly ground the nuts to clear the stays/etc on the larger sprocket bolted to the IGH's input sprocket.
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This tests fine, and gives me (in underdrive) a gear I can pedal around in from a stop, albeit probably at a pace I could walk at. :P But at least I can get somewhere without killing myself, if I have to. I tested by going all the way around the local block my house is on, I forget how far that is but probably half a mile or so, and other than being hot from the midday sun, it was survivable. Getting started froma stop still hurts but is tolerable under normal conditions; if it was a hurty day (like rainy or cold days often are) then that might be a different story.

I swapped some round chainrings in the same tooth counts as the Biopace (28/38/48T) and retested, and verified that while the Biopace doesn't do everything it would if it were at the correct angle to my input like it would be on a normal bike, it *does* help some. SO I put the Biopace back on.

Somewhere during all the above, I also found the shifter (but not the pullchain/rod) for the SA-IGH, and while it won't directly connect to the Shimano, I managed to rig something that works. I clamped the shifter around one of the "mixte like" tubes, next ot the keyswitch.
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(cable nowhere near long enough to reach the bars; didn't wanna deal with replacing that). The cable housing is just long enough that way to reach a cable boss I already had on the frame for the abortive attempt at adding rear rim brakes back when I was using BMX wheels back there. (someday I'll get back to that idea, too).
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The cable from there happens to angle perfectly straight around the chain to reach the IGH's shifter lever, so I wraped it around that, hten braided it around itself tightly enough that I am able to shift using the lever to all three gears (though the last one, underdrive, requires some overpull to get latched).
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On to the cargo deck stuff.

I chopped the angled seat supports, and the crossbar from the front edge of each fender to them, in a way that I can just reweld if I had to, and tested it.
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Just sitting on the trike feels different; the front is much less connected to the back this way, and has noticeable sag and twist. Riding around the yard where it's uneven was really twisty. So I definitely need to stiffen it up with different bracing, if these are removed.

First, I just cut and bent the seat suports so they're vertical,
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and tack welded them, and removed the whole crossbar to the fenders. This helps a bit with the sag part, and makes the seat a little stiffer so I don't feel like I'm sitting up in a swaying tree ;), but it doesn't change the twistiness of the trike front to rear.

THey do still clear the chainline. barely.
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Because these supports are still in the way there, of putting the battery and accessory boxes where I'd like to,
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I'm going to remove them entirely, and add a support tube from the front edge of the seat mount plate to the "toptube" directly below it, probably at a slight forward angle to complement the rear tube that goes all the way down to the main "downtube". Sideways stiffness will be helped by another design change, if it works out.

First, since I'll be extending it anyway, I cut the whole rack off starting at the rear edge where the lights are mounted. I may yet redo that part too, but for now I'll leave it to simplify some things, and leave the lights up there for nighttime test rides (once I get some of the basic wiring redone).
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this gives enough room with the seat moved forward that now the entire dog crate easily fits behind the seat on teh deck, fully supported, rather than overhanging in the rear.
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The hitch won't need to stick out so far back anymore,
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and can now be moved forward quite a lot. I can probably just ditch half of the whole assembly, but I think I'll leave it as is in case I end up wiht long cargo *and* needing the trailer...ya never know. :)

It'll be something like this, from the side.
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This is how it would mount, shown from the bottom.
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The rack and it's new front support might look something like this:
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Then I cut the whole front top portion of the fender frame away on the right side, to see what I could do with that. I bent the original fender tubing down from it's 45-ish degree angle all the way flat with the cargo bed. That might go back to the way it was later, but probably not.
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What I am thinking is that if I remove the existing frame just inboard of that fender tube, and replace it with a longer piece that goes several inches further forward, then add a new crossmember to the center "downtube" in front of the seat, then I have a new better attachmenet point for the forward overhead rack support, which will then go at a forward and outward angle from the rack down to this point, giving a bit of "triangulation" to the structure and removing some of it's ability to sway. It already had such an angle the way it had been fastened to the forward outer corner of the fender frame, but it wouldn't if I kept the attachment piont there (and it also wouldn't help stiffen the whole trike like the new point should).
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The actual front edge of the rack will then be right at the back top rail of the seat, and will be fastened to it (a clamp or bolt, rather than welding, so I don't ahve to worry about getting a seatcover over it whenever it needs changing, or setting one on fire that's on there when I do the welding. :lol: This clamping/bolting will stiffen the whole thing more, and help minimise seat sway too. It won't stop it, because the attachement of the seat back to the seat is only a single point in the center under the seat, but it will be better than nothing (I hope).

The seatback's cover, BTW, was all rotted out, so I took it off and replaced it with an old t-shirt, tied down while stretched out, but it didn't work out very well--being old, the shirt's threads just tore, so I'll have to use some good newer material to make the cover from, and then perhaps attach the main body section of the shirt over that (for the pretty picture).
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Back to the cargo deck...I think I'll go with a single 1" square tube at the height of the fender frame top, replacing the outer 1/2" square tube that's there, but not just on the fender frame--it'll go the whole length of the cargo bed, from rear edge to just beside the seat. I'll weld it to the vertical rack support at the rear edge (which presently is removable, but won't be when I'm done with this, or perhaps will be done in a different way). It will also be welded to the cargo deck via the front rack support, which also won't be removable at that point.

It'll wind up basically looking kinda like a pickup truck with an overbed rack. It sort of did before, but it will look even more like it now.

The fender itself sort of flares out from top toward the axle, but I'm likely to change that so that it is the same vehicle width as axle point all along the cargo deck. Then I can use some of that red metal shelving to cut it's metal surface off of, and tack weld that to the whole side of the deck. It's a lot tougher than the coroplast I've used over the fenders so far, and is already red so I don't ahve to paint it except where I cut / weld it. It is really thin, so it shouldn't be too much heavier with it, but it will also be much more durable. Since it is possible it will rattle, I may spray-glue styrofoam sheets to the inside portion of it to damp vibrations.

I considered wood, too...which I might still do instead, but it is just as much work to get it off the pallets and cut it to fit the spots, etc. Not sure any one piece is long enough either, so would have to use several end to end lengthwise and side to side, or a lot of them vertically (which would make it easier to find "good" pieces as they don't have to be more than a foot long). But...wood is a LOT thicker than the metal sheets, and widens the trike by double it's thickness. It's already hard to get thru my front door when I need to.

I also might just leave the frame bare like it's been for many months now, but the trike is a lot more visible when it has "solid" sides rather than open framework. Even as big as it is, it makes quite a difference with more surface area for visibility.

I did some test fitting and such, and found that there's no way I can lower the frame for the accessory box area without interfering with the chainline from IGH to rear end. But if I am cutting away the existing frame, then as long as I am also moving the IGH upwards a bit, more toward the center of the frame it's in, and make sure that the forward frame crossmember ends up out of the chainline, it should still work out ok.

So that's what I decided to do. For the moment I left the triangulation portion, because I need something to help hold the front and rear together and aligned while I build the rest of the frame around it. Then I will move the triangulation as well.
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So far I've got the fender cut out for the long horizontal tube, and that tube installed and tack welded.
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I also experimentd with some stuff clamped together to see what it'll look like with the full frame there, and so it'll look mostly like that but not exactly.
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I've got the fender tube back up at about 45 degrees or so, like the rear one, for a "truss like" structure. I added a forward 1/2" square tube from axle point level with cargo deck pointing forward. It's not yet attached to anything else, but will be part of the outer railing.
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I added a crossmember under teh main downtube, just behind the IGH and front edge of the seat. (it doesn't go to the actual seat edge or further forward so that if I have my feet on the ground and the trike moves forward for any reason, I don't get my heels/calves/ankles bashed).
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I started to add a lower rail, but changed my mind on where it is and how it's connected, so I'll cut the tackwelds off and reshape it's rear connecting end so it goes under and around the "axle" jackshaft tube just forward of the wheels, so that it is even with the bottom of the downtube, and then goes up to and connects with that crossmember above.

Once that is connected at each end, then I will be able to cut out the original diagonal triangulation support, and replace it with a longer one that's lower down.

Together, all of that will strengthen the trike from twisting as much, because it will connect farther forward (albeit not by a lot, but mostly it will give significantly more volume of cargo area under the seat.

A shot of the whole frame bottom as it is right now, to ponder with
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While I was just going to put the plastic case back where it was, and then add another on the other side, I think I'm going to make some metal panels instead, that attach to the new frame itself. Then hinge the outer panel (rather than the top, because I'll get more accessibility that way) to be able to put stuff in there. I might hinge the top instead; depends on how the whole things works out. Maybe I"ll hinge both. :)

I'll line the box on the top and sides with styrofoam, so stuff inside doesn't get as hot as fast in direct sunlight. The bottom will be left uninsulated so heat can escape that way.

The battery...may still go where I'd planned. Or it may end up inside a box of it's own, insulated the same way.

Right now, though, I'm dozing off as I type so I'll have to finish this later....

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Oct 03, 2016 4:09 am

Oh, and first up, a thanks to Spinningmagnets for that IGH I'm using (and some others I have around here somewhere) ; I'd forgotten until just now that he'd salvaged them from bikes destined for the dump, and sent them to me several years ago for a project I never went forward with. So it's high time I'm finally using one.

Also, I forgot to post it, but when I was doing up the chains I had a problem (again) with the chain breaker tool. It is not well-designed, and has a habit of the brass "retainer" just coming out, letting the pin and bearing fall out to bounce on the ground and get lost. :(
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As long as you never point it with pin downward whenever you have the plate-securing bolt in anything but it's most inward position, and the pin bolt in anything but it's most inward position, so that the plate bolt captures the bits when they fall out, and keeps them from coming out very far, then there's no issue.
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But if you have it in the normal usage position, and tip it downward, away the bits go to hide from you (and they're very good at even escaping magnets). When this happened while doing the chains, I had just undone the chains and was about to put them back together, so after an hour of looking for the pin and bearing (found the bushing), I gave up and made a makeshift pin from a slightly too small allen wrench, as it was the only thing I had hard enough to do the work (I tried a nail first and it was a perfect fit, but bent the instant I put pressure on it to put a chain back together).
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The allen wrench, being smaller than the bushing hole, wiggled around and didn't stay alighned, so I kept haiving to use needlenose to push it back in line while pushing the pins bakc into the chain links. Made the whole process take a couple dozen times longer than it should have.

Of course, tne next day I found the pin just laying there right on top of the work area, where it most definitely was not the day before. :( Didn't find the bearing, but I have a handful of a size taht works....).

Anyhow, back to the trike: I got a bit more cutting and welding done today in between rainstorms. I have the basic outer rails done, all the way around to the front under the seat.
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The bottom edge of the forward side rails (just forward of the wheels) is not yet done, nor is the left side triangulation of the main bottom frame.
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The new rack is tacked together, around the dog crate/kennel, though I deliberately didn't make it as tight a fit as before, since now the whole thing is enclosed on the bed there's not really much worry about it coming out the back. :) Plus with the trailer hitch on there it won't be able to slide out any farther than the ball.

I don't have the front rack supports on there yet, as I was trying to decide whether to do them straight or angled forward. Will most likely do the latter, as it makes a stronger shape overall.
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The pics above are with the crate scooted bakc to let me clamp the battery on; when it' sin it's normal position it'll be here
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and so makes the straight support position irrelevant; I wouldn't gain anything from it.

It doesn't seem like much difference in the appearance, but there are at least several cubic feet more space on the trike for cargo now.
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I coudl actually get a bit more space if I mvoe the seat forward even more, whcih I could do if I leave the new cranks where they are now. Probably could do 3-4 more inches. It's still in consideration.

It also definitely changes the handling, for the better in my short around-the-block test tonight. I put the crate on there, and hoseclamped the EM3EV A123 ammocan pack, and the 3-cell EIG lighting pack to the frame behind/right of the seat; I had to slide the crate back a few inches (almost where it used to be, actually), so there would be enough stable area to clamp it to without hitting the chain. I rode around the block, maintaining speed for turns (proablaby between 15-18mph, no speedo so cant say for certain till the CA is back on it. In turns, it was less tippy than it was before. I don't know if that's due to the weight shift forward, or the extra few pounds of metal in the longer rack and tubing, or what.

I didn't have the trunk on teh rack so that's a significant weight not up top right now, and I'm sure it makes some difference. But if the new under-seat cargo areas work out I won't need that up there most of the time.

But just for the photo op, I set it up there and pushed the crate into it's forward position, with the battery removed.
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Something wierd I saw when taking pics is that the eat appears to be offset to the right by quite a bit...but when I look at it rom the base and senter pole, it's centered. So I'm gonna have to measure everything and see what the deal is. :/
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What I think I am going to do is make a single U-shaped compartment, insulated with styrofoam, and hinged covers. Exactly how the covers will work I'm not certain yet. I considerd making the seat hinged, so that it pivots forward at the front rail of the cargo deck. This could get complicated, in that I wouldneed to make a fastener for the back end that I could easily and quickly undo, but that can't come loose by accident.

But it would make creating and using the compartment covers easier.

Instead, it is more likely that I will make the whole side and part of the top hinge outward on the two side comparments, so they are like L-shapes but upside down. Kinda like reverse gullwing doors.

Then the rear compartment (which will be tools and batteries, I guess) would open toward the rear the same way.

I suppose I should also put some lights inside the compartments, since it'll be even harder to see into them especialy at night, than the plastic box type I'm using now. The white styrofoam will help, but I'll still need light and holding a flashlight while I dig around for stuff would be annoying. I have some little PCBs with white LEDs on them that run on 12v; I had been pondering using them as marker lights behind bike reflectors, but this is probably a better use. :)

So I am pretty close to done withteh structural stuff, and then I have to work on the covering part, and the paintjob.

I also have to do the wiring. I havent yet redone all of that, and I would like to, to get the whole thing less experimental looking, and more like a usable everyday vehicle. :)

I have a bunch of old cables ready to cut up and splice into the various harness sections, and the plan is to run the wiring thru the frame wherever it is possible (that's what I started to do when building it the first time, but then kept adding things.... :/

Since I have to redo the wiring anyway, I am probably going to replace or at least repair the steering tiller tube in a better way than my quick hack I used the night it broke. It requires removing all the cables from the tube first, or else the welding heat will destroy them. So now would be a good time to do it.

Anyway, lots of stuff still left to do before it's back to usable condition...but when it is done it should be better and more usable than it was before (and it was pretty good then. :) ).

I think I've used up about $12 worth of cutting discs so far, and at least that much welding wire, just in the last few days. :oops:

Maybe I should sell ad space on the sides. :lol:

(it's funnier if you remember how much I hate spam)
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Oct 10, 2016 1:27 am

Got a litttle bit more done today (yesterday was taken up with repairng CrazyBike2's rear wheel, as the rim has been splitting apart for a while now).

First up was taking apart one of the old bent-up retail shelves,
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to get the big sheet of ~1/32" thick steel off to use as the outer part of the cargo/etc boxes under and behind the seat.

I cut the ends off, about two inches on the bent up end, and right at the seam on the other end. These ends are about 1/8" thick steel.
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Then I cut along the front and rear channel edge where it is made by bending the large flat panel, leaving the channels intact if I need them later, as well as the panel.

Then I ground away the spotwelds from underneath, that hodl the under-shelf reinforcment channels in place, again so that I can use those if needed. They'd be in the way of my use in the cargo areas, and not necessary (at least, not yet). These rails are even thnner metal, maybe half or less the thickness of the main shelf surface.

This is what all the pieces look like, if you've ever wondered what's under all the stuff you buy at the store. ;)
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If I make the side panels out of this, it'd look a little like this, other than being cut out to match the actual tubing structure along the bottom (see the pics in previous post that show that).
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Most likely I would try bending the top edge, instead of cutting the bottom away, so taht the row of holes goes over the top of the fender area. I'm not sure exactly how I'd do that and get an even bend along the whole length; I'd have to build a brake bender out of wood to do it.
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Since the gearing works out ok, and I know the crank position needs to move up to a bit above and forward of where it used to be with the old one-piece cranks, I wend ahead and cut the BB shell off the stays of the experimental bit, and moved and welded them in their new permanent home.
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Then I cut away the rest of the experiment, so that I can weld it to it' snew home, a bit rearward of where it was, and up a bit, to make it possible to take the IGH out for maintenance, etc., without having to break the chain to the rear end. It will take some wiggling and maneuvering to get it off, but it will work.
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The dropouts and stays are actually flipped upside down and swapped left-right, so taht the former steatstays that pointed up are now downa nd rearward a bit to connect to the crossbeam down there, and the former chainstays point down and forward to connect toa new crossbeam that isnt' yet present.
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I cut the ends of the seatstays to "fishmouth" them to fit the front top corner edge of the long crossbeam. The chainstays were left flat so they will go right on top of the new short beam.
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Yogi and Teddy came in and out a lot while I did all this, to say hi and see what was going on, but as soon as I started cutting or grinding they'd head back inside.
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Eventually I figure dout the chainline simply couldn't be made to work around the crossbeam support on the right side; it'd go thru it in one gear or another on the front chainrings, and touch it in the others, no matter how I did things. So I cut it off on taht side (leaving the leftside as-is for now), and then cut and bent the stay itself to meet the downtube at the top of the right side.
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Now the chainline clears it fine in any gear. (not that I am likely to use anything other than the largest ring in normal usage, along with the overdrive gear on the IGH, so that I can do some pedalling along with the motor at lower speeds, when I am able to do it, but the smallest ring and underdrive on IGH will be needed to get me home in case of motor system failure.)
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The shifter cable was redone by taking out the hinge pin of the threaded rod on the IGH-mounted shifting lever, and runnign the calbe thru taht pin hole, to pull the lever forward for underdrive and overdrive, and let it rest for 1:1 (I think).
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Cable routing is still the same as before, and so is the securing of it--just braided around itself after looping thru the lever.
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Chanlines to the rear clear eertyying fine, as planned.
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Oh, and the IGH is actually mounted offset to the right so the drive sprocket on it's right flange is aligned as perfectly as possible with the rear end's input sprocket. By chance, this also makes it align perfectly for the bolted-on input sprocket to the IGH, and the smallest sprocket in the crank triple, which is good because it is the one that would have the most load on it if I ever have to use it. :)
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I tested the system pedalling around the yard, and got no creaks or derailings, etc. (unlike with the temporary mounting), and in the lowest gear it worked perfectly--allowing me to pedal everywhere, even when a wheel would go down into a hole (a few inches deep, mostly), though with some effort for most, and significant effort on the rest (but it'd be easy for someone without my problems).

If I needed to climb hills, I'd need even lower gears, but this should do for most of relatively-flat Phoenix. :) I doubt that I could go up the canal-path underpass ramps without much lower gearing. Those are kinda steep.

But....druing the first part of this test, the tiny bolts I had used to secure the output sprocket to the IGH's spoke flange sheared thru,
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while trying to get the left rear (drive) wheel out of one of those holes. Just TING! and cranks spinnign around. At first I thought I'd broken the IGH itself, but it was just those bolts, about equivalent to 15g or maybe 16g spoke thickness. :/

I looked thru stuff I had and tried a few other things, but managed to shear them, too, so I gave up and just welded the sprocket ot the flange. I had to first cut away arcs of the flange, so that I could weld securely thru it to the sprocket, without the weld bead interfering with the chain laying on the teeth, so it's rpetty ugly.
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But this worked. I think I'd probably break something else before this comes loose. ;)

The last thing I got done was to add some square tube to the back corners of the seat back frame, so taht I can drill holes thru them and the front edge of the cargo rack, and bolt the two together to complete another part of the structure (and keep the rack from being rammed into my shoulders, by keeping the trike from "bending" there, hopefully, though that will require some more mods to this seatback frame attachment point).
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I also flipped the handlebar stem to move the bars from hanging below the tiller to above the tiller, though I appear to have forgotten to take a pic of the after-change version. :/
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I still ahve to complete the framework on the front of the cargo area, and the rack forward supports, fender inboard framework replacment, cargo/battery/etc boxes, new full-length cargo deck planks, rewiring everything, repairing or replacing the steering tiller tube, etc.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by dingoEsride » Oct 10, 2016 6:36 am

It's turning into a descent sized hauler big enough for a tradie to carry tools and materials plus the essential dogs, you've inspired me to do something similar build with a trike kindly donated to me by Rodney 64 from here that I wanted to fix for my mother to do her shopping and what not but didn't interest her and seeing I've got ebike bits and pieces lying around and not getting used and driving my work van does little for me,

it did have a 36v brushed motor on 16" rim and will have 48v 20 Ah brushless 26", I just want to stretch this by about an extra foot with about a 3.5-4 foot basket to carry two dogs and cargo
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Oct 10, 2016 2:41 pm

dingoEsride wrote:It's turning into a descent sized hauler big enough for a tradie to carry tools and materials plus the essential dogs,
Definitely, and it can haul a trailer, too--since it has a 1-7/8" ball hitch, that can be either one of my custom trailers or a standard automotive-hitch trailer. (ball could be changed out for bigger if needed, but this is what I had).

It's actually *smaller* than it was before, since the deck is longer by moving seat forward so cargo pod / dog crate/kennel moved forward, and hitch will be moved forward nearly a foot, too. But it looks bigger...and it has more cargo space, and will be stiffer/stronger, *and* capable of being pedalled with or without the motor, even by me. :oops:

you've inspired me to do something similar build with a trike kindly donated to me by Rodney 64 from here that I wanted to fix for my mother to do her shopping and what not but didn't interest her and seeing I've got ebike bits and pieces lying around and not getting used and driving my work van does little for me,

Inspiring others is half of why I post this stuff, in hopes that those with the need will see it's possible, and try their own. :)

it did have a 36v brushed motor on 16" rim and will have 48v 20 Ah brushless 26", I just want to stretch this by about an extra foot with about a 3.5-4 foot basket to carry two dogs and cargo

I can highly recommend making it the same wheelbase as mine. I don't know why, but it is much more stable when it is this long, vs shorter versions I've seen and tried and built. Shorter ones are tippier even with just a little jink of the steering to avoid road debris while riding in a straight line, much less actually making turns.

I would change out those back wheels for 20" if you are otherwise keeping the back end the same. If you are willing to cut up the back end and modify it in a similar way to my proposed Raine Trike build's rear end, so the axles are much higher off the ground than the deck, you can keep the wheels you have, or even go larger, for a better ride. But if you don't go for smaller wheels and/or lower the deck a lot, then it will be tippy in turns at any speed.

I'd also put your batteries and anything else that's permanently mounted on there, down low under the deck at the outer rear nearest the wheels, to help stabilize it. Having the heavy hubmotors in the rear helped this way on SBC.

The easiest way to stretch whatyou have is to add a subframe in the middle, between the rear cargo section and the dropouts/stays of the "bike" section. You can make it so it simply bolts in between them; your rear area appears to built about the same way mine was before I hacked it up. (see the Delta Tripper thread for it's original appearance and some other configurations attempted and considered).

The best way to stretch it would be to replace the entire "basket" area with a new deck that is also that subframe, which is essentially what I did with SBC. It doesn't have to be welded to the "bike" section, either--which makes it handy to try out different bikes for the front end till you get the one that works best for you. (or you give up and do what I did, which is build a custom one). :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Nov 01, 2016 2:32 am

Some "upgrades" for the trike:

Surprisingly, I found a pair of dead Cycle Analyst v2 small screens sent to me a few years back, that I'd started to repair before the housefire, but coudln't finish at the time, and thought lost with the fire. But they turned up, and I fixed one, so now it's on the trike, mounted on that stub of steering tiller tube: ... 7#p1235195

I also ran across the box with the spare spokes and a couple of CA 1milliohm shunts, so I think just to be more certain of the data collection on trike and bike (since for instance there is always a significant difference between what the Satiator reads and the CA, during recharging), I'm going to swap out the old shunts on both SBC and CB2, hopefully in the next few days.

With the CA mounted, and powered from the Luna pack (which won't run the x5304; it sags so much the controller shuts down and won't restart until I pull the pack and reconnect it), I did some pedal testing around the block. and found that in the lowest IGH gear and smallest front chainring, I can start up and maintain about 3mph. I can reach about four but can't maintain that.

Using the other IGH gears I get another MPH per each gear, but I can't maintain it very long. Similarly with the two larger chainrings. I think about 7-8MPH is the fastest I can do at all, in highest of each gear, but again, I can't maintain that, and quickly drop down to about 2mph in the higher gears from the strain on my joints.

But I can use the gears to pedal along with the motor at 150-300w, and still feel like I'm doing something to help it.

If I can figure out how to mount a front derailer for those chainrings, I can shift while riding, between the IGH and the front rings, and be able to help the motor, or have the motor help me, at more than the 2-3mph I'll probably be able to maintain in the lowest of all the gears by myself (possibly only 1-2mph or even less, if it's loaded down with cargo or dogs), if the battery is too low to do the whole thing, but can still do a little.

The other upgrade is a new motor for the left rear wheel, to replace the 9C 2807: an MXUS v2 3T, from Neptronix; paid for by Cvin for the work I've been doing to fix her bikes.
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The controllers I have wont' really run it anywhere near it's potential, but even as it is it should have more torque than the 9C just from the wider magnets/stator (the MXUS is almost twice the flange width of the 9C). It's also wider than the rim itself.
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It's also heavier, but in this case that's useful, in that it helps to hold the left side down when I'm making a left turn (like the X5304 helps hold down the right in a right turn).

It's made for a thread-on freewheel, so no need for the hack I had to do to the 9C. It came with a 12T on it so that has to come off, as I need a larger one (the one off the 9C will be moved over) for the gearing I need for pedalling this (the whole reason for adding the IGH and smaller chainrings up front).
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The controller is the generic 12FET sensorless-only (even though it has hall wires), which will do about 30-35A peak, IIRC. I could probably modify it's shunt to fool it into increasing that, but since I need this to be reliable I'd rather not risk popping it while I'm loaded up with cargo or dog(s) (when it is more likely to fail due to higher current for longer times).

I'm hoping that eventually someone will be selling a pair of high-current sensored controllers (one for each of the rear wheels) for real cheap so I can afford to upgrade those, too. :) It'd be nice to see what these things could do with 80-100A battery current on *each motor* (though I'd have to use the EIG pack on one and the A123 pack on the other, at present, since at least when full they don't parallel directly due to different chemistry/voltage/etc).

It's not critical to do this, but it'd be nice to be ablet o accelerate much quicker than I can at present.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Nov 03, 2016 3:02 am

Well, lacing this up is gonna take longer than expected--I have to find some washers to use on the elbow ends to keep the heads from just going thru the spoke flange holes--there's about a mm of clearance, and no chance they'll stay in there without the washers.

Optionally, I could drill new holes between the existing ones; this might be the better option.

I havent' unlaced the 9c yet, but just tried to test fit the spare spokes from it using the broken rim I just took off CB2's rear wheel; I wanted to be sure that these spokes will fit this motor and rim, given the much wider flanges but approximately same diameter.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Nov 16, 2016 4:02 am

A few days ago I started to work on the MXUS motor again, to get it ready for test-lacing with the spokes I have...but I didn't get to the spoke hole drilling part I'd intended to.

I figured it would be easier to drill the holes if I ahd the rotor/flange section off the motor, so I could clamp it down to the drill press evenly.

So I marked each cover with a scratch in the paint, corresponding to another scratch on the flange, double on one side and single on the other, so I could be sure to put them back on correctly. Then I unbolted each one, and easily removed the non-wire-side cover, but the wire-side cover I can't get off, because the channel for the wire is not deep enough to allow me to pass the wire thru the bearing.

On the non-wire side, the bearing stayd on the axle, rather than in the cover. But on the wire side, the bearing stayd in the cover, the opposite of what I needed to happen.

Side note, there was flux and speckles of solder stuck to the side cover I could get off.
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I could probably tap the bearing out of the cover but I didn't want to risk damaging it; I might be able to work the cover over the wire a different way (wihtout damaging the wire, either).

So for the moment I just bolted the covers back on.

FWIW, this is the 21x3 winding according to the marking on the aluminum stator core.

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It also has a temperature sensor built in; I"ll have to look up the MXUS thread to find out which one to see if it'd be easy to hook up to one of my multimeters or other readouts to monitor temperature.
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Has a couple places where laminations are bent away from the stator
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I still need a freewheel for it, and while I could just use the one off the 9C that's coming off, I figured first I'd make sure I have a spare, and use it for testing, so I went to pull anohter 18t off an old BMX wheel...but found that the freewheel had no splines or other way to remove it.

There is a lip on it, just tall enough to be able to cut into and use with my four-block removal tool, but the only good way to do the cuts was to remove the axle from the bmx hub, then use an angle grinder to cut the main chunk out, then a square flat file to fix the edges/corners up.

Since the lip is thin and not tall, I put the axle back in, then used a spacer from antoher wheel to center the tool on the axle, and a washer and nut over the end of the tool, to ensure it would stay in the grooves while I used the wrench on it. A couple of good whacks on the end of hte wrench, with the wheel strapped to the leg of the bench like I did to the 9C for the same process several weeks ago, and the freewheel was off.

But it probalby hasn't had any oil or other lubricant in it for a very long time, so I opened it up, cleaned it, and lubricated the bearings (both rows), sticking the bearings into the red grease, and reassembled the freewheel, greased it's threads, then installed it on the MXUS's sidecover threads, ready for testing once I get the MXUS drilled and laced up.

It's a LOT quieter now, ratehr tahn the grindy clacketyclack it had. It only has two pawls so it probably can't handle as much of a load as the other one (whcih I think has 3 or 4 pawls); we'll see how well it handles this monstrosity's mass from a stop. :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf & Dogman's CargoTrike & DogCar

Post by amberwolf » Dec 11, 2016 6:59 am

Forgot when I did this, couple weeks ago? but I fixed the cracked lens on the left tail/brake light on the trike's rack; glued it together with superglue since I can't find my ether-based plastruct glue that would weld it into a single piece again. I'd previously used gorilla glue but I guess there wasn't enough surface area for it to grip so it eventually came apart.
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Today, htough, I got the trike turned upside down so I could work out what mods the frame needs to use the MXUS 3K/45 on there. The motor is so wide that it actually intersects with the trike's pedal-drivetrain-output shaft/sprocket at it's inboard cover, even when it isn't yet all the way inboard enough to get the otuboard axle into the dropout there.
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It also wont' line up the freewheel sprocket with it inboard at the right spot for the axle design.
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So the two things I probably need to do, to avoid huge modifications to the trike's frame, are first to modify the axle itself to extend the flats further toward the motor itself on both ends. Not sure if I'll file them or grind them; probably a combination.
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Then to widen the outer portion of the frame just a bit, changing from 1/2" tube to 1" tube where the dropout is welded on, and move that tube out about an inch, so the dropout can stay on the inboard edge of the tube to leave room for the nut on the outboard end of the axle (rather than welding a plate to the axle, that would be clamped or bolted to the dropout plate. Or alternately, to leave room for a clamp on the outbaord axle like there is on the inboard one.

Demo of that on the other side:
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img_3839.jpg (68.06 KiB) Viewed 1777 times

Old motor:
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New motor vs old, to see the width difference:
img_3823.jpg (68.41 KiB) Viewed 1777 times

There is a potential issue though, witht eh motor wires, as the cable exits a slot inboard of the dropouts on the *outboard* side, not the inboard one as with the motor it is replacing. So whatever I do to that axle end has to leave that able to exit as normal and not interfere with or be damaged by installing or removing the motor, or complicate it's removal / reinstallation if I ever have to do a roadside tire/tube repair.

Existing dropouts/frame:
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img_3826.jpg (64.4 KiB) Viewed 1777 times

Considering triangulating the bed itself, to stiffen it up:
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and the hitch bar (which wont' be that long anymore, as it doesn't need to stick out so far back now)
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This bar in front is bent a lot; didn't notice that before but I guess it won't hurt anything
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Yogi and Kirin were bored with me messing around with the trike, so they played with sticks instead:

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img_3844.jpg (63.76 KiB) Viewed 1777 times

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