Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

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Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by aaronski » May 12 2015 1:00pm

for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
Wow I've been here 7 years! had a kid and took a break. Back on a Vector Ebike just for fun.
Broken bike and electric bits everywhere. Sometimes it's a bike and I ride it.
Broken too much crap. pulled 3kw from a 350 watt ebike kit motor, pulled 100c out of HK lipo. much melted wire and plastic. Amazed at the progress this group has made in ebiking.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by 999zip999 » May 12 2015 1:25pm

It takes time to melt. How much ?

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by fellow » May 12 2015 8:07pm

What is the geared "ebike kit 350W motor" exactly? Q100H, Bafang (8fun) or something else? 2500W cont, was it without oil cooling?
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 12 2015 8:39pm

fellow wrote:What is the geared "ebike kit 350W motor" exactly? Q100H, Bafang (8fun) or something else? 2500W cont, was it without oil cooling?
It's a MXUS geared, 2.3 Kg.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 12 2015 8:53pm

aaronski wrote:for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
Volts?/Amps?
"....cooked a HAL."
Just a Hall sensor?
That motor will run sensorless.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by fellow » May 13 2015 6:51pm

Is this 150'C one compatible? It costs less than 2 USD:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... ND/2138531
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Alan B » May 13 2015 7:16pm

Sounds like a nice little gearmotor. I was recommended to keep my BMC under 1500W for long life, is this motor a bit smaller even?

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by aaronski » May 13 2015 7:31pm

Alan B wrote:Sounds like a nice little gearmotor. I was recommended to keep my BMC under 1500W for long life, is this motor a bit smaller even?
I've ran my bmc v2t at 2500 for about 3000 miles now, I did cook a HAL at 60 amps, 100v when I was playing with it. These days I'd prefer not to get killed. 50amps 48v seems reasonable? I liked the little motor as I have to take the bike up and down 3 flights of stairs daily for BART. Hence the 5ah pack and tiny gearmotor.

I'm looking at the cycle analysist v3, and have the motor drop power as temps rise. I also have no protection at all on the Lipo, so LVC from the CA would help too.
Wow I've been here 7 years! had a kid and took a break. Back on a Vector Ebike just for fun.
Broken bike and electric bits everywhere. Sometimes it's a bike and I ride it.
Broken too much crap. pulled 3kw from a 350 watt ebike kit motor, pulled 100c out of HK lipo. much melted wire and plastic. Amazed at the progress this group has made in ebiking.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Alan B » May 13 2015 7:37pm

The Xiongda small gearmotor with 2 gear ratios sounds interesting, would be much less heating when climbing steep hills.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by fellow » May 13 2015 7:51pm

Aaronski, are you considering cooling it (halls and windings) with ATF? It takes only few minutes to do so, and only ATF compatible silicone sealant and some ATF oil is what you need on Q100H (thru one disc brake screw). I guess the design of your hub is similar?
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by aaronski » May 13 2015 7:58pm

too much trouble, my neighbor has a oil cooled motor, but I really just want to get home on the lightest possibly bike, I'd rather add a thermo-control unit to kill power when it over heats. I dont' NEED to be going that fast. I just have self control issues.
Wow I've been here 7 years! had a kid and took a break. Back on a Vector Ebike just for fun.
Broken bike and electric bits everywhere. Sometimes it's a bike and I ride it.
Broken too much crap. pulled 3kw from a 350 watt ebike kit motor, pulled 100c out of HK lipo. much melted wire and plastic. Amazed at the progress this group has made in ebiking.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by fellow » May 13 2015 8:07pm

Maybe you can use a simple thermo switch inside your motor, cut the halls Vcc rail and put the thermo switch there? When it overheats, the halls stop and the controller stops until temperature drops and the halls start signalling again? The one I saw was max 7A, so halls seem the best choice. It looks like this:
Image
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by dogman dan » May 14 2015 6:06am

EBK got so tired of fat guys wanting warranty replacement of that motor when running it at 48v, that we put a 200 pound weight limit on it, and only warranted it for 800w (36v). I'm not saying you are fat, just that the motor can get overloaded by a 200+ pound dude riding hard on steep hills. Now we don't sell the motor at all, and have a 300 pound limit on the larger gear motor.

Sure, it will take more for a time. But personally, I found the smaller gearmotors so easy to fry on a big hill, I totally lost interest in them.

Frying one on 2500w is inevitable, just a matter of weather and run time. Depending on the voltage, you could end up still cruising at less than 1000w of course. If you are late for some reason, a cutoff will make you later. Just a temp readout could help you learn to ride that motor so it keeps its cool good enough.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by dnmun » May 14 2015 10:56am

i find it amazing that jason would provide a warranty on any motor. these people just drive up the warranty costs and make it harder for him to compete with the cheap cheap chinese imports that come in without any duties paid as he has to on his inventory.

you can see how every other thread here is from some bonehead who destroys their equipment and then comes on here fishing for an excuse to use to force the seller to refund their money after they destroy the equipment. usually a battery.

tell jason he has to stop or he will force his costs too high to compete. at least force the destroyers to prove it was a manufacturing failure.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by spinningmagnets » May 14 2015 11:23am

Replace all three hall sensors at the same time with the same part number. While you have it apart, add a temp sensor, also easy and cheap. The hardest part is the annoyance of taking the motor apart, so as long as you're committed to that....

I agree with fellow on adding a temp power cut-off while you're at it. I also agree with motomech, the motor 'might' still run sensorless, sooo... maybe buy a $40 6-FET sensorless controller to test that out. Even if it isn't just the halls, a sensorless 6-FET is a cheap and small valuable back-up controller and troubleshooting tool. get a spare throttle while you're at it, they are also cheap.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Alan B » May 14 2015 11:38am

I doesn't appear the OP is looking for a warranty, that wasn't part of this discussion originally. He is reporting on his experience which is useful to learn from. Clearly he is pushing the motor, and he knows that.

Motors store a lot of heat, starting a hill climb with an already warm motor is totally different than starting cold. They take a surprisingly long time to cool completely.

Having a temperature sensor is a great idea, all motors should include them. None of mine came with them, and adding them is a pain.

Having a temperature cutoff should be considered carefully, if it cuts out at the wrong moment it could cause a serious accident. It might be better to ease back on the power earlier (before cutting off hard) to give more safety margin and more warning.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by aaronski » May 14 2015 12:58pm

dogman dan wrote:EBK got so tired of fat guys wanting warranty replacement of that motor when running it at 48v, that we put a 200 pound weight limit on it, and only warranted it for 800w (36v). I'm not saying you are fat, just that the motor can get overloaded by a 200+ pound dude riding hard on steep hills. Now we don't sell the motor at all, and have a 300 pound limit on the larger gear motor.

Sure, it will take more for a time. But personally, I found the smaller gearmotors so easy to fry on a big hill, I totally lost interest in them.

Frying one on 2500w is inevitable, just a matter of weather and run time. Depending on the voltage, you could end up still cruising at less than 1000w of course. If you are late for some reason, a cutoff will make you later. Just a temp readout could help you learn to ride that motor so it keeps its cool good enough.
I know! I chatted with you about it when I bought it. somewhere in your chat logs I stated I intend to overvolt and destroy it and won't make warranty claims. ;-) This isn't a bad thing about this motor, I'm 240 Lbs, riding a big 29er up a 15% grade. If I ride gently before the grade the motor does fine, which is pretty incredible for it's weight.

I expected this. Now that I know what the motor can take, I can fix it, and keep it under that limit. I was worried that it couldn't climb the hill at all, but it does great in burst mode. I'm 100% satisfied with this motor's performance/weight ratio.

Mr. Dogman, do I need a special tool to open the motor?



Re: halls- yea, I'll replace all 3. I like the simplicity of the temp cutoff, If I can fit it in there, I'll add it. most of my commute has no danger of hiting thermal limits, it's mostly burst up to speed for 5 seconds, then pedal/coast for 30 seconds, repeat.
Wow I've been here 7 years! had a kid and took a break. Back on a Vector Ebike just for fun.
Broken bike and electric bits everywhere. Sometimes it's a bike and I ride it.
Broken too much crap. pulled 3kw from a 350 watt ebike kit motor, pulled 100c out of HK lipo. much melted wire and plastic. Amazed at the progress this group has made in ebiking.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 14 2015 5:04pm

The original MXUS geared 350 Watt is in the top 2 or 3 best performing, most durable mini motors ever produced.
Although I sold mine to a friend, it is still going strong after 4 years.
It was one sold by Amped Bikes and spent most of it's life on 12S lipo and a 20 to 22 Amp Lynn/Grin Infineon controllers.
I weight 240 Lb.s and have tried hills so steep that halfway up I realized I wasn't going to make it and turned around.
It has been used off road.
Aaronski is not the first to overpower the MXUS to destruction. Mckeefer did it several years ago. And like Aaronski, he was running crazy high power levels, 2 to 3 times of what most of us MXUS fans consider reasonable. The fact that Aaronski's motor only sustained damage to a Hall is a testimony to it's durability.

As far as the talking points of EBK, well, if they weren't installing very high speed wind motors (328 type) in 26" and 700 wheels so they can promote it having a higher top speed on 36V, then there wouldn't have to be restrictions on how it's used (No more than 200 lb. riders? Really?);
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... it#p888124
Perhaps it would be better for all concerned to drop the marketing hype and do what is best for 90% new Ebike customers and go back to the 240 wind.
And they are still claiming it's not a MXUS, shades of Amped Bikes.

Yes, a special tool is needed to take these apart. Lychny(cell-man) posted a nice picture of one he had made up years ago.. Another approach that has been shown to work(especially on frt mount motors that haven't the side cover torqued by the free wheel), is to install three bolts(double-nutted clamped) into a sturdy sheet of 3/4" plywood and place the entire wheel asm down onto the bolt heads and use the wheel to turn the cover off.
But all that is not really necessary.
AS I said before, the MXUS runs fine sensorless., even on a cheap genaric Chinese controller.
It syncs up fine 90% of the time and if one gives a little pedal input first, you can make that 100 % of the time.
The only negitive, an Infineon run senorless makes the, never that quiet, MXUS a little noisier.
Last edited by motomech on May 15 2015 6:56am, edited 9 times in total.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Nobuo » May 14 2015 5:23pm

aaronski wrote:for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
So it is the geared mxus xf07 350W?

Which Voltage was do you putting it when the hall sensor smoked?

I would like very much this motor with no clutch/freewheel and regen posibilities.. :roll:
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 14 2015 5:47pm

Nobuo wrote:
aaronski wrote:for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
So it is the geared mxus xf07 350W?

Which Voltage was do you putting it when the hall sensor smoked?

I would like very much this motor with no clutch/freewheel and regen posibilities.. :roll:
1) Yes
2)He said; 48V/50A
3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
Last edited by motomech on May 15 2015 3:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Nobuo » May 14 2015 10:10pm

motomech wrote: 3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
If I'm not wrong is not totally different, if you block/remove the clutch/freewheel, the regenerative brake is available and in terms of braking is just like a hub motor, including the continuously small resistance that hub motors offers ..

I just would like very much that same xf07 with no freewheel :wink:
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Alan B » May 14 2015 11:22pm

I haven't tried this but I suspect that you'll get significantly more resistance with a locked clutch gearmotor than with a DD hub. You have the losses of the reversed gear train and a motor spinning about 6 times as fast. So instead of a continuously small resistance you will have a continuously not so small resistance. They put clutches in them for a reason.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 15 2015 1:04am

Nobuo wrote:
motomech wrote: 3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
If I'm not wrong is not totally different, if you block/remove the clutch/freewheel, the regenerative brake is available and in terms of braking is just like a hub motor, including the continuously small resistance that hub motors offers ..

I just would like very much that same xf07 with no freewheel :wink:
Search the posts of russell, he welded up the clutch of a Golden Motor (Youe) mini motor, but eventually gave up on it.
Alan makes a very good point.
Making a mini geared perform like a direct drive unfortunately confronts the Laws of Physics.
The smallest DD is the Aotema;
http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub- ... n-kit.html
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Nobuo » May 15 2015 2:02am

motomech wrote:Search the posts of russell, he welded up the clutch of a Golden Motor (Youe) mini motor, but eventually gave up on it.
Alan makes a very good point.
Making a mini geared perform like a direct drive unfortunately confronts the Laws of Physics.
The smallest DD is the Aotema;
http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub- ... n-kit.html
Thank you very much for the info, I was wrong about the conception of removing clutch and gears on a xf07 (I have one incoming)
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 15 2015 3:02am

I have never used regen, but my impression is that it's usefulness shines under special circumstances.
Heavy,powerful bikes with long down hills, where it's braking function is useful(saving the brk. pads).
Long distance touring...
...being the main two.
I think you will like your geared MXUS. Bigger than a Cute, smaller than a BPM, just right.
Did you order an entire kit?
What controller?
What wind?
Volts?
Enquiring minds want to know :lol:
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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