Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Nobuo » May 15 2015 3:28am

With a 1000W motor and regen I find two awesome things, the first is that I use my break pads a 5% as much. the 95% of break is done by the motor.
the second is that I measured with an amp meter that it really charge useful energy to the battery, 5% to 10% of the entire capacity.

the small mxus is for a super stealthy and lightweight build. An aluminium front suspension with a front hub (XF07) moved by a 12 fet 600W controller (greentime).

It will be with a seat bag small battery 48V 11,6Ah lithium-ion battery. it will be BMS limited to 15A

So the aim is to be very light, almost invisible and reliable to use without the motor, in full pedal mode.

I couldn't choose winding options, lately I hit myself always with vendors that don't understand what winding / kv is..

The motor is very cheap, it can be bought with no shipping cost and with a shipping method that doesn't include taxes in EU, so the price I paid is the total cost.

It cost $100 each one if you buy two units

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/36V-48V- ... dVersion=1

The pack I'm gonna build it myself (of course :mrgreen:) it will be with panasonic PF. 2.5Kg. cost $220
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » May 15 2015 6:49am

Nobuo wrote:With a 1000W motor and regen I find two awesome things, the first is that I use my break pads a 5% as much. the 95% of break is done by the motor.
the second is that I measured with an amp meter that it really charge useful energy to the battery, 5% to 10% of the entire capacity.

the small mxus is for a super stealthy and lightweight build. An aluminium front suspension with a front hub (XF07) moved by a 12 fet 600W controller (greentime).

It will be with a seat bag small battery 48V 11,6Ah lithium-ion battery. it will be BMS limited to 15A

So the aim is to be very light, almost invisible and reliable to use without the motor, in full pedal mode.

I couldn't choose winding options, lately I hit myself always with vendors that don't understand what winding / kv is..

The motor is very cheap, it can be bought with no shipping cost and with a shipping method that doesn't include taxes in EU, so the price I paid is the total cost.

It cost $100 each one if you buy two units

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/36V-48V- ... dVersion=1

The pack I'm gonna build it myself (of course :mrgreen:) it will be with panasonic PF. 2.5Kg. cost $220
Will not a 30 Amp (current limited) controller drawing on a battery with a limit 15 Amps simply shut the battery down?
A given your desire to limit the system to 15 Amps, why not use a small (easier to hide) 6-FET controller?
Not trying to make an argument, just curious.

You will not like pedaling with the motor off. Yes, it free wheels ok, but there still is some drag.

Since the picture shows the motor cable uses the old style nylon connector, I would think that it is one of the original mid wind versions. Although I have never taken a MXUS apart and counted the teeth on the gears, the spec.s I have seen is 6.6 rpm/V (240 rpm @ 36V), which seems correct to me.
Mind would top out @ 22 to 23 mph @ 48V (Li-on) hot off the charger.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by dogman dan » May 15 2015 7:54am

Yeah, warranty costs a lot. Just talking to them costs big bucks, time is money. The line we are selling in 2015 should not be a problem, we still put a 300 pound limit on the bigger gear motor. I had to take it to 450 pounds to have any problems.

Uh, re the motor disassembly, I never did any tear downs on that one. It's the type that unscrews for sure.

Still have bare motors for cheap. Buy another and swap cores. Then repair the other one at your leisure. That's the way I used to do my dirt bike motors. I'd fry one each summer like clockwork in June. So the second motor was the way to keep riding right away.

You might seriously consider eventually switching to the slower dd motor. All you'd need is the motor wheel, same controller and stuff will work fine. Slower, but still a solid 20 mph on 48v. Will be much more reliable at 2500w than the little motor, even with your weight and hard riding on street.

Still no warranty for 2500w. :mrgreen:

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Dauntless » May 16 2015 12:02am

Wait a minute. You're saying you have a geared hub, as would have a freewheel, but you ran the power 9x specs and that freewheel held up?
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by neptronix » May 16 2015 2:21pm

Blowing up stuff as usual, i see? :mrgreen:

Go get a leafmotor, mxus v2 or some other larger motor that can actually handle what you're pumping into it. It'll not only perform better per watt inputted.. your range will also improve dramatically.

Shove 4000w into a 16lb. leafmotor like i am.. you'll love it.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Dauntless » May 17 2015 1:26am

I thought you blew that up.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by neptronix » May 17 2015 4:02am

Nope, motor still runs quote good at 4000w peak.. haven't noticed much in the way of performance degradation, but i did get it up to 200C after 5-10 miles of 0.5 - 10% grade at 45mph. Surprised that the lamination coating hasn't began to look melty yet. I haven't blown it and won't blow it either.. a bigger motor is on it's way.

So yes, i am guilty of pushing some components beyond their limits, but i've never melted a motor in all these years.. slightly demagged a MAC doing 1500w continuous up a 12% grade once, but never killed it.. the trick is to watch things and know where to stop.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by aaronski » May 18 2015 6:47pm

neptronix wrote:Blowing up stuff as usual, i see? :mrgreen:

Go get a leafmotor, mxus v2 or some other larger motor that can actually handle what you're pumping into it. It'll not only perform better per watt inputted.. your range will also improve dramatically.

Shove 4000w into a 16lb. leafmotor like i am.. you'll love it.

The problem is, I go to solve one problem, " I need to carry my bike for my commute" build it small/light. Now all I needed to do was not push it. So I pushed it a bit.. and a bit more.. and a bit more.

I swapped the wheel out with a BMC v2. I'll check the leafmotor, but this was supposed to be a commuter.

Side note, my 5ah pack of Turnigys is still running great after 3 years of 50A abuse. I do charge it in the fireplace though. It has to have about 300 cycles on it at this point. :mrgreen:
Wow I've been here 7 years! had a kid and took a break. Back on a Vector Ebike just for fun.
Broken bike and electric bits everywhere. Sometimes it's a bike and I ride it.
Broken too much crap. pulled 3kw from a 350 watt ebike kit motor, pulled 100c out of HK lipo. much melted wire and plastic. Amazed at the progress this group has made in ebiking.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by neptronix » May 18 2015 8:15pm

Yeah, understandable. The slippery slope is a real thing. A BMC/MAC is actually a great choice as a replacement. Great power ratio on that. I approve!

10C on a 5AH pack is totally doable even if it's not ideal. I'm surprised that you can get the rated 300 cycles out of it though. Hey, hobbyking was actually honest about something.. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by Alan B » May 18 2015 11:29pm

I was told the BMC would last a long time at 1500W, but so far I've only put 1kW to it. A motor temperature sensor would really be helpful in any case.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by neptronix » May 19 2015 12:18am

I ran a demagnetized MAC from 2011 at 1600w continuous until 2014.
It would tolerate that for about 5-10 miles, with pedaling of course, before getting hot enough for me to have to cool 'er down and take it easy for a while.

I'm sure that a BMC v3-v4 or modern MAC, both having 0.35mm laminations, would handle that power even more gracefully and efficiently for longer periods of time.

It's a great motor for use around 30mph constant, or 35-40mph for short periods of time.

Watch out for melting it going up steep hills on high wattages though.. that's why i have a direct drive motor today.. they shed heat better and handle more of that kind of torture.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by RVD » Jun 19 2015 2:39pm

I have one of these motors on my cromoly folding bike. It works well in the sense that the bike is still relatively light and I can pedal for miles without ever using the motor if I don't want to. It is laced to a 20" wheel.

However, I am running this on 10s2p lipo (37v 10ah) with a Lyen 9 fet controller. It bursts at around 30 amps and usually sustains around 6-8 amps on flats. At this setup, the motor barely feels warm to the touch and the controller is in a bag with some ventilation but the controller barely gets warm. top speed is around 16 mph. I'm guessing that 40 volts at 8 amps is only 320 watts and the motor and controller can handle that all day long. i'd like to go 20 mph on flats if possible on this thing. no need for speed/power beyond that.

If I increase this slightly to 12s lipo (44 volts 10ah), am I in the danger zone of pushing this a little too far? I'm pretty sure that Lyen's controller can handle it if it were mounted out of the bag. My assumption is that bursts will go from 1200 watts (~40v * 30 amps) to 1500 watts and sustained will be more like 350-380 watts.

I have a hill that isn't too bad (around 5% grade for about 1/2 mile) but feel that this might be the biggest risk. I don't need to go 20 mph there though and I can pedal as well.

If it's any consolation, I tried riding tis bike up a really steep 20-25% grade hill (short but really steep) and the bike made it for about 100 yards or so and then the motor died...I was just about at the top so I pedaled my way up there and barely made it. The motor sputtered for a few minutes after that but eventually came back to live about 10 minutes later.
TidalForce S-750, Crystalyte HS3540, 14s lipo. Build Thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=27525
Dahon Speed D7, e-bikekit 350 watt geared motor, 12s lipo. Build Thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=34958
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » Jun 19 2015 9:07pm

I ran a MXUS in a 26" wheel @ 12S Lipo(Closer to 47V off the charger) for years with various controllers, but most of the time a 22A Lyen, and I am suprised you can get away with 9-FET Lyen. A 25 A Infineon would create bad things for me like motor "hammering" and a touchy throttle But, If you are not experiencing such and the motor hasn't burned up, i guess it's ok in your case. Your sm. wheel helps tame the controller, I suspect. Still, I would make sure your phase connectors are not crimp-on bullets, as they can melt.
!2S should put you very close to 20 mph.
This is according to the Ebike CA sim. and it tells me your motor is a mid-wind(260 rpm @v 36V). The funny thing is, Ebikekit now supplies a faster wind motor in their kits. Many are big wheel builds and they would rather have your motor and theirs would be faster on your build.
Still, 20 mph is plenty fast enough for a folder.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by RVD » Jun 19 2015 10:04pm

I'm using Lyen's 9 fet 72v controller. I used it before with a 26" wheel with a 9C motor (I think...the motor was a gearless direct drive from ebikekit).

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=16998

The phase connectors are on 45 amp andersons so not great but hopefully good enough?

I also have a 12 fet Lyen sensorless controller but thought it might be overkill but maybe not?

It does surge pretty high at around 30-35 amps from standstill.
TidalForce S-750, Crystalyte HS3540, 14s lipo. Build Thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=27525
Dahon Speed D7, e-bikekit 350 watt geared motor, 12s lipo. Build Thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=34958
Breezer Uptown, BBS02 750w, 12s lipo

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by eCue » Nov 04 2017 2:13pm

motomech wrote:
fellow wrote:What is the geared "ebike kit 350W motor" exactly? Q100H, Bafang (8fun) or something else? 2500W cont, was it without oil cooling?
It's a MXUS geared, 2.3 Kg.
That is incredible and cool you tested it so hard now we know !

I thought i would be pushing it with 1000w bursts apparently not , thanks for the info I feel better about my con

I just ordered a 26 inch front wheel with the 250/350 MXUS XF07 Hub motor , will be powered with a 48v -64v 20A continuous 30A max controller with a 48v 12AH 30A li-ion battery pack

Its going on a 22lb '99 Rocky mountain Element !
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » Nov 04 2017 4:51pm

My first Ebike was a frt. mounted MXUS geared mini in my '03 Rocky Mountain edge w/ a rack battery;
bicycle.jpg
bicycle.jpg (36.86 KiB) Viewed 861 times
The rack battery didn't last very long so I went w/ LiPoly in a frame bag;
SAM_0578.JPG
SAM_0578.JPG (88.67 KiB) Viewed 861 times
The MXUS motor was great! I rode it a number of years and 1,000's of miles. Eventually the axle bearings started to make noise and rather than fix it, I gave it to a kid in the neighborhood(Last I heard, he was still using it).

My Rocky Mountain is an XL frame, great for battery space, but the top tube was a little too high to be comfortable, so I changed to 24" wheels and 2WD. The 2WD was too very small Q100's. I had an larger geared Ezee V1, so I put that on the rear and that's the bike I ride today;
100_0076.JPG
100_0076.JPG (115.41 KiB) Viewed 861 times
The Rocky Mountain has been solid as a rock. 6 Years and all I have really done is tune and put seals in the Fox air shock. All the linkages, seals and bearings are still original. As is the frt. Bomber fork! The paint still looks new. I luv my Rocky Mountain!
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by motomech » Nov 04 2017 5:12pm

I just ordered a 26 inch front wheel with the 250/350 MXUS XF07 Hub motor , will be powered with a 48v -64v 20A continuous 30A max controller with a 48v 12AH 30A li-ion battery pack
As solid as the the MXUS mini is, you need to be a little careful here, there is a limit to what it will take.
A long time ago, a member here, mckeefer, tested a MXUS mini to destruction. He was in the 60's Volts range when the windings melted. I don't remember how many Amps he was running.
For a motor's mass, there is a limit in Watts and for the MXUS mini, it's around 1200 Watts. As Volts go up, the Amps need to come down and this means adding Volts will reach a point of "Diminishing Return".
Amps-I have used various controllers on the MXUS and for a "hard hitting" controller like an Infineon, 22 Amps is about the limit before the motor starts to make "hammering noises". Go past 25 Amps and I wouldn't want to place money that the gears will last long. With a "soft-hitting" controller like the new sine waves, 25 Amps would probably be safe.
Volts- I have run between 12S(44V) to 15S(55V) on the MXUS. adding much more than 14S(52V) doesn't really add much speed, especially when one has to start cutting back on the Amps and the motor starts to become "power limited", rather than "RPM Limited".
Shoot for 24 to 25 mph top speed, going for any more on the MXUS mini will kill it. And you really don't need to go any faster than that on a 20 year old mountain bike anyhow.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by eCue » Nov 07 2017 12:21am

motomech wrote:My first Ebike was a frt. mounted MXUS geared mini in my '03 Rocky Mountain edge w/ a rack battery;
bicycle.jpg
The rack battery didn't last very long so I went w/ LiPoly in a frame bag;
SAM_0578.JPG
The MXUS motor was great! I rode it a number of years and 1,000's of miles. Eventually the axle bearings started to make noise and rather than fix it, I gave it to a kid in the neighborhood(Last I heard, he was still using it).

My Rocky Mountain is an XL frame, great for battery space, but the top tube was a little too high to be comfortable, so I changed to 24" wheels and 2WD. The 2WD was too very small Q100's. I had an larger geared Ezee V1, so I put that on the rear and that's the bike I ride today;
100_0076.JPG
The Rocky Mountain has been solid as a rock. 6 Years and all I have really done is tune and put seals in the Fox air shock. All the linkages, seals and bearings are still original. As is the frt. Bomber fork! The paint still looks new. I luv my Rocky Mountain!
I love my RM too , had since '99 it just seems perfect for me I have no desire to replace it with a 27 or 29er none at all. I have just switched my plans and will build a road ebike and keep the RM for trail riding.

One reason is the RM frame is a little tight for me ay 18" the Quintana Roo's is a 21" and closer to my ideal frame size as Im 5'9" with long arms..haha.

I picked up a nexus 4-speed internally geared hub to use with it for lazy rides and easy start ups , you can change gears at a stop light for instance so no more fidgeting with gears
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by eCue » May 11 2018 10:26am

Have been using a 36v 350w version of MXUS XF07 @ 48 volts for a few months , this is what i found

lcd5 display with 22A max KT Z controller

@ 48v 10 Amp max amperage ebike does 30 kmh
@ 14.8 Amp 750w is does 39 kmh on level ground
@ 17 Amp 850w it pushes up to 40 - 41 kmh on the flats up to 44 K with wind at my back

At 17A it became a little louder at various speeds after two days riding It was moved back to 14.8A for motor longevity. It really seems to like running at 14.8A / 750w not so much at 850w (seems to me)

The 14.8 Amps at 48v brought the motor to life have been using this setting for the last few months mostly at full throttle.

little motor rips :D
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by eCue » May 11 2018 11:17am

Alan B wrote:
May 14 2015 11:22pm
I haven't tried this but I suspect that you'll get significantly more resistance with a locked clutch gearmotor than with a DD hub. You have the losses of the reversed gear train and a motor spinning about 6 times as fast. So instead of a continuously small resistance you will have a continuously not so small resistance. They put clutches in them for a reason.
Its a guess on my part but think it might work

Possibly a blocked clutch would make for a Super Regen Motor with 6 times the speed of a DD hub motor. If it worked a person might be able to raise the wheel and pedal charge the bike. Not sure how it would perform when coasting with the gear drag. Might be similar drag to spinning it in reverse , it might work alright with the tiny Motor :)
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by granolaboy » May 11 2018 2:44pm

Any thread with a title including words like melted/burned/exploded/vaporized... should begin with pictures of said occurrence. :twisted:

For example, this is what happens when you upgrade your phase wires, but not the ones in the controller:

Image

There. Now those that came to see something melted have something to look at. :lol:
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Re: Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

Post by eCue » May 12 2018 11:54am

Purdy Photo now tell us the Volts / Amps ... what did you do to it :D
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