Melted a ebikekit mini-hub motor-2500watts cont.

A

aaronski

1 kW
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
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377
Location
San Francisco,ca
for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
 
fellow said:
What is the geared "ebike kit 350W motor" exactly? Q100H, Bafang (8fun) or something else? 2500W cont, was it without oil cooling?
Click to expand...
It's a MXUS geared, 2.3 Kg.
 
aaronski said:
for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
Click to expand...
Volts?/Amps?
"....cooked a HAL."
Just a Hall sensor?
That motor will run sensorless.
 
Alan B said:
Sounds like a nice little gearmotor. I was recommended to keep my BMC under 1500W for long life, is this motor a bit smaller even?
Click to expand...

I've ran my bmc v2t at 2500 for about 3000 miles now, I did cook a HAL at 60 amps, 100v when I was playing with it. These days I'd prefer not to get killed. 50amps 48v seems reasonable? I liked the little motor as I have to take the bike up and down 3 flights of stairs daily for BART. Hence the 5ah pack and tiny gearmotor.

I'm looking at the cycle analysist v3, and have the motor drop power as temps rise. I also have no protection at all on the Lipo, so LVC from the CA would help too.
 
too much trouble, my neighbor has a oil cooled motor, but I really just want to get home on the lightest possibly bike, I'd rather add a thermo-control unit to kill power when it over heats. I dont' NEED to be going that fast. I just have self control issues.
 
Maybe you can use a simple thermo switch inside your motor, cut the halls Vcc rail and put the thermo switch there? When it overheats, the halls stop and the controller stops until temperature drops and the halls start signalling again? The one I saw was max 7A, so halls seem the best choice. It looks like this:
electric-motor-thermo-switch.jpg
 
EBK got so tired of fat guys wanting warranty replacement of that motor when running it at 48v, that we put a 200 pound weight limit on it, and only warranted it for 800w (36v). I'm not saying you are fat, just that the motor can get overloaded by a 200+ pound dude riding hard on steep hills. Now we don't sell the motor at all, and have a 300 pound limit on the larger gear motor.

Sure, it will take more for a time. But personally, I found the smaller gearmotors so easy to fry on a big hill, I totally lost interest in them.

Frying one on 2500w is inevitable, just a matter of weather and run time. Depending on the voltage, you could end up still cruising at less than 1000w of course. If you are late for some reason, a cutoff will make you later. Just a temp readout could help you learn to ride that motor so it keeps its cool good enough.
 
i find it amazing that jason would provide a warranty on any motor. these people just drive up the warranty costs and make it harder for him to compete with the cheap cheap chinese imports that come in without any duties paid as he has to on his inventory.

you can see how every other thread here is from some bonehead who destroys their equipment and then comes on here fishing for an excuse to use to force the seller to refund their money after they destroy the equipment. usually a battery.

tell jason he has to stop or he will force his costs too high to compete. at least force the destroyers to prove it was a manufacturing failure.
 
Replace all three hall sensors at the same time with the same part number. While you have it apart, add a temp sensor, also easy and cheap. The hardest part is the annoyance of taking the motor apart, so as long as you're committed to that....

I agree with fellow on adding a temp power cut-off while you're at it. I also agree with motomech, the motor 'might' still run sensorless, sooo... maybe buy a $40 6-FET sensorless controller to test that out. Even if it isn't just the halls, a sensorless 6-FET is a cheap and small valuable back-up controller and troubleshooting tool. get a spare throttle while you're at it, they are also cheap.
 
I doesn't appear the OP is looking for a warranty, that wasn't part of this discussion originally. He is reporting on his experience which is useful to learn from. Clearly he is pushing the motor, and he knows that.

Motors store a lot of heat, starting a hill climb with an already warm motor is totally different than starting cold. They take a surprisingly long time to cool completely.

Having a temperature sensor is a great idea, all motors should include them. None of mine came with them, and adding them is a pain.

Having a temperature cutoff should be considered carefully, if it cuts out at the wrong moment it could cause a serious accident. It might be better to ease back on the power earlier (before cutting off hard) to give more safety margin and more warning.
 
dogman dan said:
EBK got so tired of fat guys wanting warranty replacement of that motor when running it at 48v, that we put a 200 pound weight limit on it, and only warranted it for 800w (36v). I'm not saying you are fat, just that the motor can get overloaded by a 200+ pound dude riding hard on steep hills. Now we don't sell the motor at all, and have a 300 pound limit on the larger gear motor.

Sure, it will take more for a time. But personally, I found the smaller gearmotors so easy to fry on a big hill, I totally lost interest in them.

Frying one on 2500w is inevitable, just a matter of weather and run time. Depending on the voltage, you could end up still cruising at less than 1000w of course. If you are late for some reason, a cutoff will make you later. Just a temp readout could help you learn to ride that motor so it keeps its cool good enough.
Click to expand...

I know! I chatted with you about it when I bought it. somewhere in your chat logs I stated I intend to overvolt and destroy it and won't make warranty claims. ;) This isn't a bad thing about this motor, I'm 240 Lbs, riding a big 29er up a 15% grade. If I ride gently before the grade the motor does fine, which is pretty incredible for it's weight.

I expected this. Now that I know what the motor can take, I can fix it, and keep it under that limit. I was worried that it couldn't climb the hill at all, but it does great in burst mode. I'm 100% satisfied with this motor's performance/weight ratio.

Mr. Dogman, do I need a special tool to open the motor?



Re: halls- yea, I'll replace all 3. I like the simplicity of the temp cutoff, If I can fit it in there, I'll add it. most of my commute has no danger of hiting thermal limits, it's mostly burst up to speed for 5 seconds, then pedal/coast for 30 seconds, repeat.
 
The original MXUS geared 350 Watt is in the top 2 or 3 best performing, most durable mini motors ever produced.
Although I sold mine to a friend, it is still going strong after 4 years.
It was one sold by Amped Bikes and spent most of it's life on 12S lipo and a 20 to 22 Amp Lynn/Grin Infineon controllers.
I weight 240 Lb.s and have tried hills so steep that halfway up I realized I wasn't going to make it and turned around.
It has been used off road.
Aaronski is not the first to overpower the MXUS to destruction. Mckeefer did it several years ago. And like Aaronski, he was running crazy high power levels, 2 to 3 times of what most of us MXUS fans consider reasonable. The fact that Aaronski's motor only sustained damage to a Hall is a testimony to it's durability.

As far as the talking points of EBK, well, if they weren't installing very high speed wind motors (328 type) in 26" and 700 wheels so they can promote it having a higher top speed on 36V, then there wouldn't have to be restrictions on how it's used (No more than 200 lb. riders? Really?);
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58138&p=888124&hilit=+ebikekit#p888124
Perhaps it would be better for all concerned to drop the marketing hype and do what is best for 90% new Ebike customers and go back to the 240 wind.
And they are still claiming it's not a MXUS, shades of Amped Bikes.

Yes, a special tool is needed to take these apart. Lychny(cell-man) posted a nice picture of one he had made up years ago.. Another approach that has been shown to work(especially on frt mount motors that haven't the side cover torqued by the free wheel), is to install three bolts(double-nutted clamped) into a sturdy sheet of 3/4" plywood and place the entire wheel asm down onto the bolt heads and use the wheel to turn the cover off.
But all that is not really necessary.
AS I said before, the MXUS runs fine sensorless., even on a cheap genaric Chinese controller.
It syncs up fine 90% of the time and if one gives a little pedal input first, you can make that 100 % of the time.
The only negitive, an Infineon run senorless makes the, never that quiet, MXUS a little noisier.
 
aaronski said:
for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
Click to expand...

So it is the geared mxus xf07 350W?

Which Voltage was do you putting it when the hall sensor smoked?

I would like very much this motor with no clutch/freewheel and regen posibilities.. :roll:
 
Nobuo said:
aaronski said:
for those wondering what a mini geared motor can do,I took the 350 watt model from ebike kit, mated it to a basic controller set to 2500 watts max, and ran it for a few weeks with no issues in 10 minute intervals, typical speed to 30mph, brake to stop sign usage, with one 800 ft hill climb at the end pullig 2500 watts for about a minute.

It worked fine for that. Then one day, rode hard to my train, but forgot my wallet, sped home faster than normal and bam, cooked a HAL. so 2500 watts burst no problem, 2500 sustained? nope.
Click to expand...

So it is the geared mxus xf07 350W?

Which Voltage was do you putting it when the hall sensor smoked?

I would like very much this motor with no clutch/freewheel and regen posibilities.. :roll:
Click to expand...

1) Yes
2)He said; 48V/50A
3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
 
motomech said:
3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
Click to expand...

If I'm not wrong is not totally different, if you block/remove the clutch/freewheel, the regenerative brake is available and in terms of braking is just like a hub motor, including the continuously small resistance that hub motors offers ..

I just would like very much that same xf07 with no freewheel :wink:
 
I haven't tried this but I suspect that you'll get significantly more resistance with a locked clutch gearmotor than with a DD hub. You have the losses of the reversed gear train and a motor spinning about 6 times as fast. So instead of a continuously small resistance you will have a continuously not so small resistance. They put clutches in them for a reason.
 
Nobuo said:
motomech said:
3)Then what you want is a direct drive motor, totally different.
Click to expand...

If I'm not wrong is not totally different, if you block/remove the clutch/freewheel, the regenerative brake is available and in terms of braking is just like a hub motor, including the continuously small resistance that hub motors offers ..

I just would like very much that same xf07 with no freewheel :wink:
Click to expand...

Search the posts of russell, he welded up the clutch of a Golden Motor (Youe) mini motor, but eventually gave up on it.
Alan makes a very good point.
Making a mini geared perform like a direct drive unfortunately confronts the Laws of Physics.
The smallest DD is the Aotema;
http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub-motor-conversion-kit.html
 
motomech said:
Search the posts of russell, he welded up the clutch of a Golden Motor (Youe) mini motor, but eventually gave up on it.
Alan makes a very good point.
Making a mini geared perform like a direct drive unfortunately confronts the Laws of Physics.
The smallest DD is the Aotema;
http://www.hightekbikes.com/aotema-hub-motor-conversion-kit.html
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the info, I was wrong about the conception of removing clutch and gears on a xf07 (I have one incoming)
 
I have never used regen, but my impression is that it's usefulness shines under special circumstances.
Heavy,powerful bikes with long down hills, where it's braking function is useful(saving the brk. pads).
Long distance touring...
...being the main two.
I think you will like your geared MXUS. Bigger than a Cute, smaller than a BPM, just right.
Did you order an entire kit?
What controller?
What wind?
Volts?
Enquiring minds want to know :lol:
 
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