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Factory changes for the Q100C .

Posted: Jun 18 2015 7:52pm
by motomech
One of the nice things about the "Cuties" is the ease one can swap different "cores" into one housing.
It was with this in mind that I ordered a pair of "201"slow wind motors to replace the two 328 "fast winds" in my 2WD Rocky Mountain.
Dropping the front Q100H 201 in place of the standard Q100 328 was a piece of cake, but as I looked at the rear CST's, I realized there was a problem.
Even though the 328 was less than a year old, there are substantial changes to the lastest version.
In the first place, they replaced the original 2mm narrower CST clutch with the standard clutch;
SAM_1054.JPG
SAM_1054.JPG (48.21 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
And there are changes to the screw-on cover plate as well;
SAM_1055.JPG
SAM_1055.JPG (59.16 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
Old style(silver), new style(back)
Less intricate casting with a smaller bearing(and different axle shaft to match the bearing).
SAM_1056.JPG
SAM_1056.JPG (53.07 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
Old style had removable spline housing, new does not. New cover is flat.

The hub/housing appears to be the same, but on the brake side the axle shoulder has been shortened:
SAM_1061.JPG
SAM_1061.JPG (38.25 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
Old motor shaft(in new housing for pic ease). 12 mm

New motor shaft;
SAM_1058.JPG
SAM_1058.JPG (41.41 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
7 mm
It's clear that they are trying to move the motor over toward the cassette side do lessen the extreem amount of dish needed to center the rim on the original CST. The problem is, even with the long 12 mm axle, I have to add a 1 mm flat washer to center the disc to the caliper. Good for those willing to move the caliper or have V brakes.

Now here's the part that has me stumped at the moment.
The gear counts on the old 328 are; 15T(axle), 39T(big nylon), 28T(sm. nylon), 77T (ring gear), which, if my math is correct is 5.1 to 1

The new motor, which is supposed to be a 201, they are; 15T(axle), 39T(big nylon), 23T(sm. nylon), 74T(ring) = 4.9 to 1

Could it be possible that the motor speed differences come almost totally from different winds?
Or more likely, has BMS B. sent me the wrong motor. I'm away from my shop, so I can't really test it now.
Here is what the sticker looks like;
SAM_1066.JPG
SAM_1066.JPG (57.5 KiB) Viewed 4746 times
I would think the 26" wheel referance would mean it's a 201 :roll:

Bottom line;
"Swapping" the old and new styles of the CST is not the "Close your eyes and drop it in" proceedure that it is with the other versions of the Q100.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 18 2015 9:14pm
by fellow
Interesting, now we know that those cuties are Aikema made. I wander what the Q100H 201rpm gear reduction is (12.6:1 stated by bms battery)...
http://www.aikema.com.cn/ page is down at the moment.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 18 2015 9:31pm
by motomech
Yes, I have been trying their site to look for a referance to that model number.
Tomorrow, if I don't get any info. to clear things up, I will count the gears in the Q100H frt. that I just swapped and mounted on the bike :roll:

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 19 2015 2:17am
by motomech
Ok, I remembered that D8veh had once said something to the effect that the Cutes were not made by Aikema, but copies.
But as seen by the sticker, BMS Battery is now selling some motors made by Aikema.
So I guess the title of this thread is wrong and should read;
BMS Battery changes factories for Q100C.
I have also confirmed that it is a 201 speed motor by virtue of the sticker declaring it is for 26" wheel.
Lastly, to fit the Aikema(new style) motor/clutch ASM in the old style hub/housing, it appears the only thing I need to do is swap over the cassette side axle half, which will match the old style screw-on cover.
Will report on results.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 19 2015 5:02am
by d8veh
The 15:39:28:77 gearing works out at 7.15:1
The 15:39:23:74 is 8.37:1

I'm just trying to figure out if it makes a difference that the planetary gear assembly rotates.

Thanks for that info. When the Q100H first came out, I asked Aikema about it. They didn't seem to know anything about it, nor did they know who BMSB/Ecitypower were. I then asked BMSB, who told me that it wasn't from Aikema. I don't know whether we can believe either of them. I've had this loads of times with other Chinese companies. They don't seem to know what's going on even with their own stuff.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 20 2015 4:01am
by d8veh
Just a thought. Did you check the width of the main core. The Q100C that I opened was much narrower. I'm wondering if the reason for the fhange was to widen it for more power.

Where did you get thisvnew version from?

Image

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 20 2015 4:10am
by motomech
The cores on the two CST's are exactly the same, the narrow version as the one on the left side of your pic is.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 20 2015 4:11am
by knutselmaaster
That is weird and against the "trend" of using higher reduction.
The evolution over the years seemed to go in the opposite way, from 9:1 to 12:1 to 14:1.
Why would they go in the opposite direction if their motors run better at higher (inside) rpm?

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 20 2015 6:56pm
by motomech
Yes knutselmaaster, you are correct.
Since I had to remove the axle halfs, I did a more careful count. I made an assumpsion that was wrong and I had one gear a tooth off.
First off, the motor shaft gear is 8T on both!
Here is the corrected count and new ratios(Thank you D8veh, for correcting my math);

Q100 CST 201--8, 39, 23, 74, for an overall ratio of 15.7 to 1.

Q100 CST 328--8, 39, 27, 77, for an overall ratio of 9.63 to 1.

The interesting thing here is, there is an exact relationship between the difference of overall ratio and motor speed nomenclature;

15.7 \ 9.63 = 1.63

and

328 / 201 = 1.63

But the problem is, even though the actual Q100 motor wind speeds are all over the map(russell tested the 201@ 36V to be 223 rpm and the Ebike CA sim. shows the 328 to be 288 rpm @ 36V, for just two examples), nobody has tested them to actually be 201 rpm and 328 rpm.
What could account for the differences?

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

P.S. I have a Q100 H 260 on my daily rider and when I get this 2WD bike back on the road, I will take apart the H and ck. the gear count on it.

Gear interchangeability

Posted: Jun 21 2015 5:12am
by motomech
Ok, I have been looking at some of my motors and doing some research and this is what I have come up with;

For referencing gear combo purposes the Q100 36V(with a compound idler gears) motors fall into two types. they are;

Motor shafts with 11T , they are; all the standard Q100 models(201 frt, 201 rear / 328 frt. 328 rear).

Motor shafts with 8T, they are; the "H" models and the CST models.

There is no interchangeability between the two types.

There is complete interchangeability within types;

201 standard and 328 gear sets can be swapped either way.

201 CST and 328 CST gear sets can be swapped either way.

I have not yet taken apart my two "H"motors, bit I am pretty sure the gear sets will swap between the two H versions and I think it likely the they will swap between H and CST models(I will look at my H motors this week coming).

Now the desirable combo would be to put the 260 gear set from the H motor into a CST. But, the only way to get a set of 260 gears would be to buy a motor, so afterward one would have a 260 CST and either a 201 or 328 H. Maybe not a bad way to go.

So what gear sets are available? Looking at the picture of the Q100 gear set at BMS B., they are showing the 328 set for a standard. So, if one wanted to convert a 201 to 328, that could be done for $9 in parts. Whether or not they offer the 201 gears, I'm not sure..

Some gear ratios calculated from observation:

CST 328------9.63 to 1
Stand.328---10.8 to 1
CST201------15.7 to 1

BMS B. lists the Q100H (260) as 12.6 to 1

Observations;
The machine screws that attach the axle halves and clutch to hub are an interferance fit, after several removals, Loc-Tite should be used.

If one or more compound gear is removed, the set must be precisely aligned via the marks or the ring gear will not fit. Do not force it on, the ASM will not turn.

referencing motor speeds by calling them "winds"seem to be a misnomer, they are all(the 36V versions)the same wind and the speed differences can be attributed to the gear ratios.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 21 2015 6:15am
by d8veh
Thanks for some excellent information. I wouldn't take too much notice of the different rpm that people measured. There's a lot of possible variables in the way they measured and there's possible interference from external factors, like binding brakes, new tight seals, etc. You can also get 10-20% boost speed from some controllers like the KU63 with the 3-speed switch.

If you have time, do your own measurements. You need to record the actual voltage at max no-load speed and the no-load current. If you have the 3-speed switch, it must be on the middle setting.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 21 2015 6:20am
by spinningmagnets
For comparison purposes, will be looking for print from the Q100C

Image

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 21 2015 6:27am
by knutselmaaster
The difference in torque must really be huge between 9:1 and 15:1.
Really cool to share all this information, thanks ;)

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 22 2015 6:35pm
by fellow
Thanks for the valuable information, a very impressive work there! If I understand it correctly, Q100H 201rpm should have an overall ratio of 15.7 to 1, but the core is wider than CST 201rpm?

Besides the known bmsbattery's spare gears, I've found this: http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp ... 1M44.599DY
Not sure which q100 model it fits.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 23 2015 11:12pm
by motomech
knutselmaaster wrote:The difference in torque must really be huge between 9:1 and 15:1.
Really cool to share all this information, thanks ;)
Yes, when I apply full throttle the forks extend and the frt. of the bike rises.
This never happened before, even with the 260H. A strong torque arm is deffinately necessary.
This is on 12S lipo and the ELB 9-FET 17A controller.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 23 2015 11:18pm
by motomech
fellow wrote:Thanks for the valuable information, a very impressive work there! If I understand it correctly, Q100H 201rpm should have an overall ratio of 15.7 to 1, but the core is wider than CST 201rpm?

BQ100H 201rpm should have an overall ratio of 15.7 to 1, but the core is wider than CST 201rpm?
Q100H 201rpm should have an overall ratio of 15.7 to 1, but the core is wider than CST 201rpm?
Yes, I believe this is true, although I have not physically looked at my H motors gears yet, I have no reason to think that the compound gears are in any way, different than the other variants gears(except for the 260 motor's ratios, of course).
The burning question for me is, will the 260 gears work with the CST.
I will look into this next week.
Besides the known bmsbattery's spare gears, I've found this: http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp ... 1M44.599DY
Those are the same gears offered by BMS B. For the 328 standard.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 7:29am
by docnjoj
So is there a way to interchange the 201 motor innards with the 260 innards. ie. put the 201 gears and motor into the 260 (100H) case? My 100H has poor startup torque at 44 volts nominal even in a 20 inch wheel.
otherDoc

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 1:05pm
by fellow
Yes, I believe this is true

Thanks, that explains different reports of Q100H motors (201rpm & 260rpm). I must say that 201rpm Q100H is perfect at voltages over 50V, I see no drawbacks at all (it's a small motor after all). It is too slow under 50V in 26". My 201rpm Q100H bangs (pulsejets) a lot close to and over 21A(saturation?), sweet spot seem to be at 17A. It feels lazy at 14A, it's ideal current/power ratio seem to be relativly sensitive to dial in.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 1:14pm
by d8veh
docnjoj wrote:So is there a way to interchange the 201 motor innards with the 260 innards. ie. put the 201 gears and motor into the 260 (100H) case? My 100H has poor startup torque at 44 volts nominal even in a 20 inch wheel.
otherDoc
You can exchange the cores in any of the Q100 and Q100H motors. The only thing you can't do is swap between Q100C and Q100 or Q100H.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 1:44pm
by docnjoj
Thanks d8veh again. That makes my life a lot less complicated. I don't do cassettes.
otherDoc

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 6:20pm
by motomech
docnjoj wrote:So is there a way to interchange the 201 motor innards with the 260 innards. ie. put the 201 gears and motor into the 260 (100H) case? My 100H has poor startup torque at 44 volts nominal even in a 20 inch wheel.
otherDoc
That doesn't seem right to me. Which controller are you using now?
Try the Elifebike 9-FET 500W (19A) controller and hold on.
And if you are using 12S Lipo, that controller has a rock solid LVC @ 42 V that I have tested repeatedly.
With my Turnigy 20C, that means the cells have just passed thru 3.7V and are just starting to get scrambled.
Perfect!

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 24 2015 7:18pm
by motomech
d8veh wrote:
docnjoj wrote:So is there a way to interchange the 201 motor innards with the 260 innards. ie. put the 201 gears and motor into the 260 (100H) case? My 100H has poor startup torque at 44 volts nominal even in a 20 inch wheel.
otherDoc
You can exchange the cores in any of the Q100 and Q100H motors. The only thing you can't do is swap between Q100C and Q100 or Q100H.
To clarify, we need to id the center housing OR hub, or as Doc has termed, "the case". All these terms refer to the same thing and the only differences of this part between all Cutes is the color and number of spoke holes(Anybody ever use 32 spokes?).
They all have the same bearing on the "closed" (disc) side.

So, what this means is, any Q100 motor will fit into any hub.

Now, the beautiful thing is;

ALL DISC SIDE AXLE SHAFTS ARE THE SAME. EXCEPT ONE,
On the Akiema CST, the shoulder extends 12 mm, and
on all the others, it extends 7 mm.
Even this is not really a problem because most "Old-style" CST installs will have a flat washer inside the drop-out to align the brk. disc. For the Akiema, just leave it out(this actually worked better on my Rocky Mountain and centered the caliper better).
This is all for the good, because swapping the disc side axle shaft would be a bugger(wires).

For someone wanting to swap motors, the thing to remember is, everything on the cassette/free wheel side of the motor ASM must remain together.
That would be, the axle shaft, the clutch, the ring gear and the screw-on cover. Keep all that together and the swap is straight-forward.
So, even with the extreem swap of swapping a CST motor for a standard motor, the difference in motor width is compensated by the width of the of the side cover design.

As far as mixing and matching parts only, I think it safe to say;
All gear-sets are the same width and can be exchanged(but only between the 8T and 11T axle shaft groups and the ring gear must stay with the gear-set).
The Akiema uses wider clutch rollers, but the clutch ASM appears to be the same width(I am at my vacation home and do not have my verniers).
The axle shaft and it's side cover MUST remain together!

Now, if you had a box of parts that you wanted to build an entire ASM, technicaly, it could be done, but expect some fiddling.

When I swapped the Akiema CST 201 for the early 328 CST, I wanted the 12mm Akiema disc side shoulder, but wanted to keep the old-style screw-on cover to match the silver hub build into my wheel. So I used everything Akiema except the cover side axle shaft and the cover.
When I tightened down the screw-on cover, the ASM did not rotate freely. After repeated "looks' inside, I determined the inside of the cover was pressing, every so lightly against the ring gear.
This, I attribute to machining tolerances and the "fix" was to wrap the cover threads in teflon tape, so when it was tightened down, there is a little extra clearance.

I hope I am not "muddying the waters". Soon I will have a "H" motor apart for a look-see, and at that time, post a more definitive report on Q100 interchangeability.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 25 2015 3:19am
by d8veh
I still have two questions. The first is, where did you get that black Aikema motor ftom?

The second question is about the difference in torque. The Q100H is supposed to have 30% more torque. Before, we thought it was because the rotor ran faster with a higher reduction ratio, but your findings seem to show that the ratios are linked to RPM regardless of type (std, H and C), so where does the extra torque come from?

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 25 2015 10:33am
by motomech
where did you get that black Aikema motor ftom?
BMS Battery
I also recieved a black 201 H frt. and the same time. It does not have the Akiema sticker, but the usual stickers one sees on all BMS B. Cute motors.
Aside from the 8T axle shaft and gear ratios, the motor and clutch looks the same as the standard Q100.
The Q100H is supposed to have 30% more torque. Before, we thought it was because the rotor ran faster with a higher reduction ratio, but your findings seem to show that the ratios are linked to RPM regardless of type (std, H and C), so where does the extra torque come from?
Yes, the gear ratios correlate in a very linear fashion to R.P.M./V, right thru the line-up, top to bottom.

Take the original 328, which we haven't looked at closely. I have counted the gears for an overall ratio of 10.8 to 1 and that ratio corresponds very well with the Ebike CA sim. which shows a no-load motor speed of 285 rpm @ 36 V.

And then the relationship between the original 328 and the Akiema CST 328, which has a overall ratio of 9.63 to 1.;

328\285=86.8%
10.8\9.63=89.2%

Ok, so higher mechanical leverage will produce an increase in thrust up to power peak and we see that when comparing, say the 201H to the260H. The 201H will get to 15 mph first.
But this, as you pointed out doesn't explain why a 201H has more torque than a standard 201, but that increase can only come from the one remaining variable, motor efficiency.

Lets think about something else. The CST motor is approx. 25% smaller than the standard Q100 motor. But I haven't noticed any real difference between the two(I haven't compared the 201 standard and 201 CST side by side). So, if my "seat of the pants" dyno is correct, the CST motor must be 25% more efficient.
Not too far away from BMS Battery's claim of 30% more "torque"for the H, which is of course, the same size as the standard motor.

So, in full circle fashion, I can only conclude that you were correct when you conjectured that the H(and as we now see, the CST)must use higher grade materials.

Re: Factory changes for the Q100C (Cassette version).

Posted: Jun 25 2015 12:01pm
by docnjoj
motomech wrote:
docnjoj wrote:So is there a way to interchange the 201 motor innards with the 260 innards. ie. put the 201 gears and motor into the 260 (100H) case? My 100H has poor startup torque at 44 volts nominal even in a 20 inch wheel.
otherDoc
That doesn't seem right to me. Which controller are you using now?
Try the Elifebike 9-FET 500W (19A) controller and hold on.
And if you are using 12S Lipo, that controller has a rock solid LVC @ 42 V that I have tested repeatedly.
With my Turnigy 20C, that means the cells have just passed thru 3.7V and are just starting to get scrambled.
Perfect!
I had been using the kv63/65 which it think is a 6 FET. Not great torque on startup. I have been attempting to put on an S12S but have run into startup difficulties of a different kind. I have 3 of them and an LCD-1 and LCD-3. I'll have to do a bit of swap and switch to get one that gives the torque and starts reliably. I could solder the 6-Fet shunt but with all these controllers around I should be able to find a good combo. Otherwise, perhaps order a 201 rpm.
otherDoc