cycle analyst hall wire for speed?

Joachim · Jul 30, 2015

hello i buy a new controller for my e-bike and a plug and play cycle analyst.

have smal problems whit instal.

First the crystalite controller was very weak and not what i like.

The controller is a hall sensor type and de cycle analyst was plug and play on this controller.

so now i have a new non hall sensor controller and cant get speed signaal on the plug and play cycle analyst....no hall signal on this controller.

can i wire the yelow wire sp from cycle analyst on the 1 of the 3 hall wires from the engine to get speed signal to the cycle analyst?

speed pad and set poles to 1 wil wurk but if i can get signal out of the hall sensors from the motor this wil be nice and less wires.

teklektik · Jul 30, 2015

Joachim said:
so now i have a new non hall sensor controller and cant get speed signaal on the plug and play cycle analyst....no hall signal on this controller.
...
can i wire the yelow wire sp from cycle analyst on the 1 of the 3 hall wires from the engine to get speed signal to the cycle analyst?

This seems confusing - if you have a sensorless controller then you have no hall wires. If you mean the phase wires - the answer is no.

Get a wheel pickup and convert your CA-DP to a CA-DPS. You don't mention the CA model, but if it's a 3.0 or 2.3 please see:
"Appendix B. Add/Remove Wheel Speed Pickup Sensor" of the V3 Guide available here.

You can get a pickup from ebikes.ca, or in a pinch, use a pickup from a cheapie bicycle computer.

Joachim · Jul 30, 2015

Controller have no hall but the motor have hall sensors...5 wires:black/red/yelow/green/bleu.
red/black plus and minus to the controller and there must be somthing out of the hall wires when the motor is turning?this signal use for speed to CA?
if this is not posible i will go whit just a speed ped and magnet.

CA is 2.3

teklektik · Jul 30, 2015

Joachim said:
Controller have no hall but the motor have hall sensors...5 wires:black/red/yelow/green/bleu.
red/black plus and minus to the controller and there must be somthing out of the hall wires when the motor is turning?this signal use for speed to CA?

Okay - gotcha.

Yes, your idea will work fine - very clever, actually.

We can power the halls from the throttle connector.
From the motor wire bundle, connect:

red wire to the throttle +5V
black wire to the throttle Gnd
any one of the B/G/Y hall wires to the yellow CA Spd input.

If this does not give you a reliable reading, hook a roughly 5K resistor from the hall wire to the red +5V wire as a pull-up (across 1 and 3 above). The current is tiny (1ma) so any low wattage (1/8W) resistor is fine.

Nifty - this idea may go into the next V3 User Guide...

Joachim · Jul 30, 2015

i already test this:speed signal not good ...not stabiel and to much speed 176 km haha.
hook a 5K Ohm resistor between 5+ and the hall wire and let you know if this wurks fine.

think a lot of people have a non hall controller and most of de hub motors have hall sensors,wen they want speed signaal from de CA 2.3/3 this wil be nice whitout the spoke magnet/sensor.no extra solder wurk in the controller and no extra sensor/wires at the wheel.

Sorry for my bad englische

teklektik · Jul 31, 2015

Joachim said:
i already test this:speed signal not good ...not stabiel and to much speed 176 km haha.
hook a 5K Ohm resistor between 5+ and the hall wire and let you know if this wurks fine.

I checked a controller schematic and Infinion controllers use a 2.2K pull up resistor on the halls. If you still have issues, you can use a similar 2.2K resistor. If you have none on hand, just parallel up a couple of the 5K resistors to get about 2.5K. I believe the 5K resistor specified above will work fine, but the smaller value is an option if erratic readings persist...

Looking forward to your results...

Joachim · Jul 31, 2015

Wurks fine

i have a lot wurk to do before i can drive the bike.
Already make a small test drive and set the R shunt number correct..same as the shunt in the controller.
is this oke:i see 2A whit multimeter between the shunt in the controller whit max throtle no load, wheel free from the ground.
the cycle analyst current Amp @ the same time show me 2 A....think this wil be correct?

test drive max Amps are 30 A......controller is a max 22amp but i put a drup of thin to the shunt.
whit the 52 volt battery this wil have a good peak of 1500Watt/1.5kw whit a top speed of 50km(wheel 700c not bad top speed whit 50 volt i think)

I order a softpack lifepeo4 48 v 20ah whit a max draw of 60A and peak 100A :shock:

this wil be good for the bike/engine/controller and
if i want to have more power are speed(other motor/controller) the battery is stil good to use.

Wiring and battery to the frame wil be the next 2 steps i wurk on.

Think i can have a range between 80/100km....very flat here :wink:

teklektik · Jul 31, 2015

Joachim said:
Wurks fine

Excellent news!

Joachim said:
Already make a small test drive and set the R shunt number correct..same as the shunt in the controller.
is this oke:i see 2A whit multimeter between the shunt in the controller whit max throtle no load, wheel free from the ground.
the cycle analyst current Amp @ the same time show me 2 A....think this wil be correct?

Yes. This is the correct setup and it looks like your meter agrees.

Joachim said:
test drive max Amps are 30 A......controller is a max 22amp

Some controllers allow extra amps for a brief period when you accelerate from a stop to make up for the poor low speed torque of direct drive hub motors. This can give the surprisingly high current that you saw - far above the 'normal' controller rating.

Joachim said:
but i put a drup of thin to the shunt.

Not sure I understand (did you mean "drop of tin?"). If you mean you soldered the shunt, then it will have a lower resistance and you will need to recalibrate the CA RShunt value. Without this adjustment the CA will not read current correctly. "Appendix A. Calibrating the Cycle Analyst RShunt Value" in the Guide describes several procedures to accomplish this.

Sounds like your build is coming together nicely.

BTW - Welcome to Endless-Sphere - and thanks for this useful contribution - appreciated!

(I will put it in the next release of the V3 Guide.)

Joachim · Aug 1, 2015

Thanks I like this forum and and spent a lot of time just reading al the information here @ Es.

Yes i soldered the shunt al litle bit.

After i soldered the shunt i check whit a multimeter the Ampères between the shunt in the controller,max throtle no load 2 A.
@ the same time i look to the current amps on the cycle anayst display and this was first 3 A.
I set the CA R shunt value lower to get the 2 A on the CA display.

First i set the value to 1100 but after a test drive the max current amp are 60A and this is nog posilble..way out of waht is realy should be.
I know that the max A of the controller is 22amp and whit a soldered shunt a litlle bit can give me max 30amps.
I dubbel the r shunt value from 1100 to 2200.
Now i measere the shunt in the controller and say 2 amp....CA displays 3 A so the RShunt value was still nog correct.

Now i bring the Rshunt value down til i get the same 2 A @the CA display...from 22000 to 2000 and i have perfect steady 2A on the CA display...same as i see
on the mutimeter between the shunt in the controller.

I hope this is a (good) way to set the R shunt value? Numbers look correct to me...

teklektik · Aug 1, 2015

If you don't have the charger or power supply to calibrate the CA as described in the Guide, then your approach is workable. It's generally better to be calibrating with a current larger than only 2A, but your strategy is correct.

That said, if you get the RShunt set pretty close, you can still use Current Throttle, etc to make the bike more driveable since it works by percentages and the absolute current value isn't important.

Joachim · Aug 1, 2015

Test ride: drive whit max throtle speed 46.7km for a koppel of kilometers and the CA show me continue 29 A
Peak was a good 1600Watt so max A wil be 30...30 A x 52 v

9wh/kw wil take me 50km of range whit the old battery i have for now.

maby i buy a externel shunt for the CA to be sure the compleet calculation is correct.

Joachim · Aug 1, 2015

long test drive,max speed on flat is more whit the new controller

old controller max speed 45km and the new one have a max speed of 51.2km
motor temp is good and the controller not hot @the shunt side a bit nice warm not hot.

this setup has more power and goes fast from 25km to 50km...like a 50cc scooter.i will upoad a movie whit new battery pack instal.
was almost in a schock how fast this easy bike goes :shock:

the thing i dont understand:i drive 30km/h and the Amps are 14 but if i ride the max speed of 50km/h the amps are 30.
so wen i drive 40minuts max speed 50km/h a 20ah battery pack is empty.....think there is something not good whit the A reading from de CA.

Joachim · Aug 2, 2015

Take a ride today and stopt when the Cycle analyst tell me that i used 109 Wh.
The charger is 54.5 volt and 2 ah....this wil put 109Wh in 1 houre to the battery....?

so after 1 houre the charge have to stop because the CA tel me that i draw 109Wh out of the battery and the charger puts 109 Wh in the battery in 1 houre.

after 1 houre and 5 minuts the charge stops and battery was full again.

If the cycyle analyst have this Wh number correct than the Amps/Rshunt value must be good i think?

Rshunt value is now 1450mOhm and the max A whit this setting was almost 40 A....2100Watt
normal drive it takes 10 A whit a speed of 30/35kmh.

I think this is a good way to look if the CA is almost calculate things correct.

Whit the full chargerd battery i drove 218Wh on the cycle analyst.....battery is chargring now and must be ready in 2 houres.

amberwolf · Aug 3, 2015

Joachim said:
.....think there is something not good whit the A reading from de CA.

If there is a problem with the CA's amp reading using a DP model, where it uses teh shunt inside the controller, it is possible that the controller shunt itself is inaccurately translating the current into the voltage the CA actually reads.

Apparently it's not that uncommon for shunts in generic controllers to have excess solder on them that may affect the readings, or even to be poorly made, so that they change resistance with temperature (like when the current goes up), causing the readings to be wrong (perhaps think of it as less accurate at higher temperatures / currents?).

So it's possible an external shunt, like the ones Grin sells, could be more accurate than the one in your controller.

Joachim · Aug 3, 2015

Yes i will go for the externel shunt...this is special material that doesnt make problems whit temperature hi/lo?

i take a ride after diner...want to drive the battery compleet empty(old accu sla so doesnt mather) wil see what the CA give me in WH when i drive it compleet empty.
battery is 48 volt 12Ah,think it is 80% ok so 10AH wil it store...500WH.

Joachim · Aug 3, 2015

Total trip km:45km
avgS:30km/h
top speed:59.5km/h
max A peak:43 A
Total AH:13

Start whit 54 volt and voltage is now 47.5 v
wh/km 14

I think i,am almost @ the good seting and i drove not the same speed/trohtle/Amps over the 45km so some times max and for a wile 30/35km/h whit 14 A draw.

i need the new battery...think i can make 100km whit the pack

Joachim · Aug 7, 2015

I,am almost ready whit the e-bike.
wiring al in side de bike for a clean look 8)
Waiting for the new battery pack...takes a wile,problems whit dhl so now it wil come whit dpd.
some pictures off the bike.
700c wheels,mtb frame,front suspension and a big hub-motor :mrgreen:

http://i61.tinypic.com/21aigw3.jpg

Joachim · Aug 23, 2015

New batery pack finaly arived.
external shunt fot the CA also.

the bike push a good 2500 watt peak and top speed @ 56km/h.

To much power en speed fot a front wheel and i make the choise te buy a new bike and rear wheel motor.

29 inch Fuji Nevada frame build up whit some nice components and disc brakes.

new motor is a magic pie 2 whit the internal crap controller :lol: oke the motor drives good but nog fast en only a peak of 1500 watt.

The motors are big and heavy :shock:

the bike self is only 11 kilo.

i,am gone drive this motor/bike for daily ride to wurk.

Have a second magic pie 2 motor and this one must be opend en put out the intern controller and wil run later whit a extern controller 45 A max.

The R shunt value for a external shunt is 1365 mOhm?

teklektik · Aug 23, 2015

Joachim said:
The R shunt value for a external shunt is 1365 mOhm?

If you ordered the plug-in kind (SHUNT-CA3), then the resistance is 1mOhm. This is the easiest way to upgrade a CA-DP to DPS regardless if it's a V2 or V3. It also get you the throttle and speed wires on the shunt breakout cable back at the controller where you need them.

The old style wired-in V2 CA-SA shunts used to be 1.4mOhm, but that may have changed in recent years. Best bet in that case if there is no documentation is to email ebikes.ca for the proper value.

Joachim · Aug 23, 2015

ok i have a old extern shunt from a CA 2.
the good thing is that i also have this CA unit

so i can check the r-shunt value of this CA en set the same numbers in the CA 2.3 that is hooks up to my bike.

the CA show me a peak of 21A and i set the GM MP 2 @ max amps for the in motor controller, i think this is 30A so a good 1500watt must be the max.

CA shows me a max 1100 Watt...maby it is more and whit the good r-shunt value closser to the 30a max.

throtle/cruise/regen brake/max speed setting from the CA etc is al cut off....only twist throtle is wat i need for this bike

Joachim · Aug 23, 2015

power up the old CA were the shunt came from and the R-shunt value shows 1.054mOhm.
set the r-shunt number in the CA on me bike to the same number so this wil be ok

cycle analyst hall wire for speed?

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