Custom frame build, Help design.

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tomjasz
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Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 02, 2015 7:05 pm

So I have 4 bikes running and none of them truly fit. I need a FF Flat Foot, CF Crank Forward first and foremost. A step through design would be the optimal. But not absolutely essential.

I have a local frame builder who will work with me.

I'd like a a hybrid design that would allow for multiple configurations. So finding the right drops out is essential. Do we use a marketed rear drop out and reinforce? What about the front drop out? What is the most rigorous dropout for a steel fork? High quality front dropout with off the shelf Grin torque arms?

There are several designs that I other ride or would like some aspects integrated.

Most important factor is my inability to mount a bike with normal geometry. I can mount a FF or CF frame. A step through would be a really nice feature. I'd also like to see a rack as a part of the frame.

I want a fat tired(2.5") Flat Foot, cargo bike. Capable of mid drive, rear DD, and front DD. It could be a fast rear drive MXUS V2, 2wd q128, or a mid drive BBS02.

What would you do? Materials choice? Drop out choice?

I know the potential costs but I have $2000 in frames and configurations I'm not happy with.
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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dogman dan
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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by dogman dan » Nov 03, 2015 6:58 am

Hmm ready for some really kooky dogman ideas?

First, it almost sounds like you are describing the ODK bike. They come electric, but you can also get the pedal only version.
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It's not the really extreme step through you might prefer, but it does fit your verbal description, "step through cargo bike"

Now for the more oddball stuff. It's too bad the ladies electra townie is not steel. Then your frame builder would need only to lengthen one. It's a very nice step through, pedal forward bike. Adding an extracycle attachment would make one a long tail cargo bike, but the problem there is they no longer make the attachment. Extracycle is just making frames now, and none are step through that I know of.

But anyway, if you can snag an extracycle attachment someplace on the used market, bolt that to a step through bike you really like.

You likely have eliminated the Schwinn trike as an option.
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But here come the kooky ideas. The meridian trike is a sturdy aluminum frame, but the rear is steel. Unbolt the rear section, and the dropouts are very long, and have two bolt holes. It should be easily possible to fabricate a set of bolt on extentions. Viola! a bike much like an electra townie but longer for cargo.

Similarly, there are steel trikes out there, where the extention could be welded on. Most of the trikes are pedal forward for sure, but not all. One thing about this idea though, the pedals will be lower than normal, so you can't pedal through a turn on a trike converted to two wheels. You could lift the front with a shock fork, and the rear with adjustments to the extention.

Lastly, the extreme idea. Here's low step through, really pedal forward, and cargo handled by using a trailer.
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We copied this bike to make the front half of Amberwolfs trike. He's got big issues with mounting a regular bike too. Nice low step through and seat for him to mount the bike easy. It's definitely an easy design to copy. On the trike, we modified it to use a 26" front wheel with less rake on the fork.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 03, 2015 10:41 am

Dan,

Thanks! Some great ideas and another cargo bike I'd not found yet. I like many things about the ODK but it's not FF.

Xtracycle IS coming out with a new conversion kit, it's a matter of when. It seems delayed AGAIN.

I've had a couple of modern Schwinns and resold them immediately. Once I had them in hand and was able to spend a few minutes looking closely at quality, riding, and doing some basic adjustments, I saw them for what they are. Crap. I have my own ideas about using junky China frames too. I would NEVER ride a MXUS v2 bike at speed if it were based on the Walmart frame. I'd never consider a Sondors bike for anything more than a decorating prop. A Meridian is the scariest thing I've ever ridden and considered for a eBike. Yup in 20 months I have developed a set of prejudices and ideas that I am firmly intrenched in.

When the day comes that I can no longer negotiate two wheels there will be a Workman trike in the garage. That is the only trike, excepting the Trek Pure trike I would motorize. Recumbent and the similar designs just aren't my cuppa.

That said, your input is exactly what I need.

I don't have a lot of $cratch, but the Mrs sees my passion, and since I don't ever drive, supports my using available $$$$. Yup I know it's going to be stupidly expensive to build something. But I have $2000 in frames I'm not happy or comfortable on. All purchased in the last 5 years.

This will be a protracted build as I gather components. Unfortunately I can't grab it all at once but part of the fun for me will be gathering stuff at best price. I have the time and the internet savvy to hunt deals and that's how this will go.

SO this will be a custom steel frame. Flat foot, crank forward. Integrated rear rack. Possibly a front rack too. MAYBE "full" step through or at least mixte style. I may give-up on Bafang mid drives if we're able to get near the Pidal style foot plates. Tubing size to be adequate to be able to have wiring inside the frame members. Frame sized to use minimum 2.35" tires.

I'd be done today if I could buy the Pidal as a crank forward ride. I really like the idea of a mild, front drive, kick bike frame. I often stood up on my Smoothie and road along stretching out for a mile or two. I gave up once I realized how much stress I was putting on an already questionable shaft and bearing set i the BBS01. The Pidal comes closest to the perfect bike for me off the shelf. That design might be prohibitive and go way over budget. Some sort of stand up peg or platform would be great. The Pidal probably bottoms out, or looks like it might.

Thanks Dogman!
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 03, 2015 10:46 am

This. If impossible a flat foot cargo frame. Xtracyles new folding bike comes very close but still not a good ergonomic fit.
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by 999zip999 » Nov 03, 2015 2:29 pm

That pedago is a piece of junk I saw it 2 yrs. ago. Junk. Not well though out.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 03, 2015 4:35 pm

999zip999 wrote:That pedago is a piece of junk I saw it 2 yrs. ago. Junk. Not well though out.
Agreed. I presented it only as an idea for frame builds. Any ideas?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by dogman dan » Nov 04, 2015 7:30 am

The meridian frame remains, the single most side to side stiff step through frame I've ever ridden, except for Amberwolfs trike. I'm not counting my mixte frame, but if a semi step through is good enough, explore the mixte frame design.

If the schwinn whipped like a walbike, I sure as hell would not have suggested it. It's got a surprisingly thick main frame tube. And it is a crank forward bike. NOT riding it as a trike, convert to bike. As a trike, they do suck badly.

But hell yeah, build something very much like it, in steel. Essentially, copy a ladies electra cruiser in steel, adjusting the frame size to fit your body.

Copy the front of the electra frame. then stretch the rear 6" or so, so you can use a slightly bigger pannier than normal.

Or, use the design in the bent for the front part of your bike. Not the exact geometry, but the idea. Using thicker square tube, it can be crazy stiff, and still a very low step. When we did AW's trike, we even added two additional tubes, for a mixte style frame. VERY stiff those mixte's

For SURE, any cargo bike needs a frame that is stiffer than normal from side to side. Heavily loaded, a weak frame will wag it's tail.

Re some of the other questions.

Definitely have your builder cut custom rear dropouts. Nice thick ones, so they need no torque arms.

For the front fork, a good quality steel front fork will be fine, but you might want to choose one of the best, like a surly. Then just use a torque arm for a motor on the front. A steel fork can have a tab welded on, eliminating the hose clamp to attach the arm.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 04, 2015 10:17 am

Thanks Dan. This is my one shot at a custom frame. I really like the builder. While I appreciate the inventiveness you and Amber display I'm unable to match it. I think the wheel base of my 3 flat foot bikes is long enough and I don't need it as long as those on cargo bikes, but like their integrated racks.

Are there any custom rear dropouts being made that could be used?

Builder has the fork material needed. Your description of a front fork is apparently easy with available parts. Hopefully I can get SamD and spinningmagnets to jump in.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by Samd » Nov 04, 2015 3:31 pm

Will give it some thought and post later today....
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by SkyknightJohn » Nov 04, 2015 6:39 pm

tomjasz wrote: Are there any custom rear dropouts being made that could be used?
My first thought was the Doctorbass torque arms, complete with a derailleur hanger, but after popping over to the sale thread it looks like he's having trouble producing them now (his machine shop declined to do them anymore.) https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=550. Maybe see if he or somebody has an unused set left over? I have an old set (solid, no lighten-ing holes) welded to a junk rear end I could cut off & clean up. If you're interested, shoot me a PM.

Also, Nova has a variety of steel dropouts: http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... -DROPOUTS/
I've doubled up the chrmo track disc style ones for a 1/2" per side... they're horizontal, if that matters. Verticals available, but depth may be an issue.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by icecube57 » Nov 04, 2015 7:08 pm

Have routing or compartments for cable and connectors on/in frame.

Extreme clamping drop out .. Machine adapter spacer for 135 and 150mm motors.

Built in cycle analyst mount or recess in frame..

Add hole for torque sensing bottom bracket

Frame needs to easily accomodate up to 60t chain ring.

Make sure you use recent derauiler hangers to get better quality components..

203mm rear disc brake mounts spacing and also to allow thicker hydro calipers.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by Samd » Nov 04, 2015 8:06 pm

I would start by drawing the basic points that are critical to you:
Headtube location and angle
BB location
Seat point
Wheel base/length for handling at a certain speed.

Then once you have these right on paper, sit down and join those points up with any shape/material you like. Any number of variations.

Careful using CF as a contraction - I thought you meant carbon fibre!
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 05, 2015 1:38 pm

icecube57 wrote:Have routing or compartments for cable and connectors on/in frame.
At the top of the list!
icecube57 wrote:Extreme clamping drop out .. Machine adapter spacer for 135 and 150mm motors.
Any suggestions on how we proceed? Is there something on the market? Is there a drop out someone has used and created a clamping dropout for, avoiding reinventing someones already good work?
icecube57 wrote:Built in cycle analyst mount or recess in frame..
Never thought of that! I have second CA3 ready to go.
icecube57 wrote:Add hole for torque sensing bottom bracket
I'll look at Grin instructions for that location. But will definitely make sure that's done.


I'm thinking three water bottle locations for future battery locations.

Thanks for the time Chris!
icecube57 wrote:Frame needs to easily accomodate up to 60t chain ring.
icecube57 wrote:Make sure you use recent derauiler hangers to get better quality components..
icecube57 wrote:203mm rear disc brake mounts spacing and also to allow thicker hydro calipers.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 05, 2015 1:40 pm

Samd wrote:I would start by drawing the basic points that are critical to you:
Headtube location and angle
BB location
Seat point
Wheel base/length for handling at a certain speed.

Then once you have these right on paper, sit down and join those points up with any shape/material you like. Any number of variations.

Careful using CF as a contraction - I thought you meant carbon fibre!
Got your sketch and will photo my frames and layout the measurements with MacDraft.

Thanks Sam, as always...grateful for the handholding.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 05, 2015 2:03 pm

This from the builder, "I have distributers with a variety of dropouts. And i have a small machine shop. Oh, and access to a water jet. We have options."

Now a design...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by Samd » Nov 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Make the rear drops 150mm.
If you want to use a 135mm motor you can mount two 6mm plates to the inside.

Mount the disc brakes via a slider.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by dogman dan » Nov 06, 2015 7:02 am

Not a bad idea, except some motors won't have long enough axles to use a 150mm frame and spacers.

But, sounds like he's got all the tools to make dropouts, so have him make bolt on ones. Then it could be possible to bolt on 135 or 150's. What I mean is, spacers on where the drops bolt on for 135 mm, take them out, 150.

Making the dropouts bolt on to the frame also makes it possible to lengthen the bike later, if you choose to.

I would think for most use, a custom steel drop out that is 1/4 " thick and relatively deep will be as sturdy as the Doc Bass torque plates. It could be a stock dropout with a large c shape piece welded on, or the whole thing that thick.

I just got going on longtails, because you mentioned the words cargo bike. I assumed at least a bit longer than normal. The main thing is to build in lots of lateral stiffness to the frame, so it won't wag it's tail like a dog when loaded after all that work to get it to fit you.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Nov 06, 2015 10:51 am

I want a wheelbase no longer than the Townie, Pure, or Smoothie. Those three geometries are the range.
I communicated the Dr Bass.

"If you did not found anything interesting on E-S, then the best optin if to build you own. Most people i talked to that ended out making that are all convinced that this is the best solution and that it worth time making it according to your preferences"

I'll follow up next week after the meet and visit to the builders shop.

http://www.bluesteelbikes.com
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by SkyknightJohn » Nov 06, 2015 12:29 pm

A shop to envy. 8) You should end up with a fabulous ride!

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by icecube57 » Nov 06, 2015 12:33 pm

If people are running larger chainring I think there needs to be a cage around the chainring or platform in the triangle so if you use a Triangle bag the bottom of the bag has a little something to rest on. The frame bags tend to sag and droop over time which could put the frame bag and batteries in harms way of the chain ring. A guard or platform to support a bag higher.. this is a pet peeve of mine but its a thought....

Battery storage compartment under down tube or behind the seat post tube. If this bike is made for speed you want an extended wheel base so there might be room behind the seat post tube.

The bike geometry should account for weight biased. I tend to like most of my weight in the saddle vs the handle bars. I prefer my handlebars to be higher and seat lower so Im not putting all my weight on my wrists. My bike feels more like a motor cycle or chopper this way. If you plan to pedal you want a weight bias leaning to the front and more weight on your wrist and handlebars.

Account for tire sizes... I run 2.35 big apples which barely fit in my frame.. However I want to run 2.5 hookworms... It might be a no go.... But account for balloon tire or fat tire sizes if possible.

On of the weird things I notice about some of these frame builds is the fork height which tends to give the rider a leaned back profile on the bike because of their height..... so if the steer tube angle can properly account for the length of these tall fork appropriately then yeah that would be great.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by dogman dan » Nov 07, 2015 10:11 am

Definitely agree, the length of a normal 26" beach cruiser is a good goal. Then it will fit on normal bike racks, including the bus ones.

6" longer frame than usual for a 20" bike should do er. 26" -20" Once all other stuff to fit your body is sorted out, add 6" to the rear stays. Or less, if the front is longer than usual to fit you.

Your thread has spurred renewed intrest in my winter project, which will be very similar in design goals. Mine might be a bit longer, but not longer than my current long cruiser. I want essentially the same thing, but the rear wheel will be 20" and the frame designed to hold a battery nice.

Have you seen that bike frame designed to hold a laptop bag in the center? I'm thinking of something very similar, but you'd drop a square 18650 battery pack in the slot. And then, still at least 6" longer behind the seat for rider comfort and cargo.

It will look a bit step through when not carrying a big battery. Will be a lower than normal top bar when carrying a smaller battery. It will look a lot like a mixte, but the side bars wider to fit a 4.5" wide battery.

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Re: Custom frame build, Help design.

Post by tomjasz » Jan 11, 2018 9:00 pm

dogman dan wrote:
Nov 07, 2015 10:11 am
Definitely agree, the length of a normal 26" beach cruiser is a good goal. Then it will fit on normal bike racks, including the bus ones.

6" longer frame than usual for a 20" bike should do er. 26" -20" Once all other stuff to fit your body is sorted out, add 6" to the rear stays. Or less, if the front is longer than usual to fit you.

Your thread has spurred renewed intrest in my winter project, which will be very similar in design goals. Mine might be a bit longer, but not longer than my current long cruiser. I want essentially the same thing, but the rear wheel will be 20" and the frame designed to hold a battery nice.

Have you seen that bike frame designed to hold a laptop bag in the center? I'm thinking of something very similar, but you'd drop a square 18650 battery pack in the slot. And then, still at least 6" longer behind the seat for rider comfort and cargo.

It will look a bit step through when not carrying a big battery. Will be a lower than normal top bar when carrying a smaller battery. It will look a lot like a mixte, but the side bars wider to fit a 4.5" wide battery.
This is resurrected as the shop is working on a custom fork. And the project now has a pair of MAC motors. No more mid drives except for wifes park path bike (bbs01).


Did you com3 up with something, Dan?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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