Cycle analysis ....which one to buy?

spdas

spdas

100 W
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
143
Location
Kapolei Hawaii, USA
Aloha, I see several different models of CA at ebikes.ca/ Which one is the best for me?

1) I use anywhere from 35v-80v
2) kelly controller is rated at 40amp max
3) top speed mostly 25mph, maybe a burst to 30mph
4) I will be experimenting with over-volting, so a temp display would be nice.

suggestions on the CA model?

thanks
Francis
 
Due to #4 on your list get the newest one CA3. The last time I bought one Kinaye had the best price. He mailed it quickly and it works great. http://kinaye-motorsports.myshopify.com/products/cycle-analyst

Does your controller have a CA-DP connector? Otherwise you will need to get our your soldering iron or order the extra remote shunt as well.
 
ecycler said:
Due to #4 on your list get the newest one CA3. The last time I bought one Kinaye had the best price. He mailed it quickly and it works great. http://kinaye-motorsports.myshopify.com/products/cycle-analyst

Does your controller have a CA-DP connector? Otherwise you will need to get our your soldering iron or order the extra remote shunt as well.
Click to expand...

Aloha, agin. I am not sure what a CA-DP connector is, but here are the specs and pix of the controller.
thanks
Francis

http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72101x40a24-72v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-506.html
 
That Kelly controller looks great. But not to scoff it, perhaps consider a controller designed to work hand in glove with the Cycle analyst, by the guy who invented the Cycle analyst.

Similar voltage range and amps. http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/controllers/c7240-nc.html

The CA DP plug is the interface that allows the full possible functions of the CA to be used. I can't see if the Kelly has one or not. Ask them, and if it does, then no worries.
 
dogman dan said:
That Kelly controller looks great. But not to scoff it, perhaps consider a controller designed to work hand in glove with the Cycle analyst, by the guy who invented the Cycle analyst.

Similar voltage range and amps. http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/controllers/c7240-nc.html

The CA DP plug is the interface that allows the full possible functions of the CA to be used. I can't see if the Kelly has one or not. Ask them, and if it does, then no worries.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I sent kelly a message. I got a 1000w motor, the Kelly controller, and a 80volt 8.3 AH battery pack made of Turnigy batteries for FREE, so obligated to use it....... we will see though.

(but I sure like the idea of a controller designed to work hand in glove with the CA) Sure would save a lot of time.

Francis
 
spdas said:
(...I sure like the idea of a controller designed to work hand in glove with the CA) Sure would save a lot of time.
Click to expand...
Grin controllers are excellent, but do not provide any special design features to accommodate the CA beyond the CA-DP connector which can also be found on controllers from other sources. The design strength is rather exactly the opposite: it is the CA that is designed to provide full functionality with *any* controller -- regardless of whether that controller comes equipped with the special connector.

  • EDIT: As of the formal release of CA v3.0 in the beginning of 2016, this is no longer strictly true. The CA3 now supports throttle-based proportional regen for Grinfineon and Grin PhaseRunner controllers - only. This feature applies increasing regen as the throttle is advanced when the ebrakes are pulled. Other controllers may provide proportional regen by using a second thumb throttle, etc., but CA3 integration allows only the Grin controllers to provide regen modulation using controls already present on the bike. This may or may not be an important consideration in controller selection.
There are threads on ES describing adding a CA-DP connector to a controller in the manner that might be done by a manufacturer -- involving opening the controller and making internal modifications. That strategy frankly requires more time, skill, and risk than necessary -- Grin sells components that typically allow the CA-DP feature to be added externally with no internal controller modifications whatsoever.

Your Kelly lacks a CA-DP connector and will require an external shunt. Considering your controller current capacity, a good choice is the 'Shunt-CA3' molded external shunt (see: http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/shunts/shunt-ca3.html). Hookup of this shunt is addressed in the CA V3 Unofficial User Guide. I have not personally wired up a Kelly, but I believe you find that the more complete and specific diagram below to be accurate. This arrangement of shunt, key switch, and kill switches leaves the CA operational if the controller is shut off with the handlebar kill switch, but there are several minor variations. See the UUG for details.

As you can see, all wiring is entirely external to the controller and involves only a few connections to readily available controller signals. This will give you full access to V3 features - battery and trip statistics, thermal rollback, programmable LVC, optional PAS support, 3-position limiting switch, etc.

 
Add the plug to the Kelly controller it is then!!! Especially now that you got provided all the info to do it correctly. 8)

I only suggested the grin controller, assuming he was buying a controller anyway. $25 bucks more, so likely less than the value of the time he'll spend installing a CA plug.

But of course, the educational value, priceless. :mrgreen:
 
dogman dan said:
I only suggested the grin controller, assuming he was buying a controller anyway. $25 bucks more, so likely less than the value of the time he'll spend installing a CA plug.
Click to expand...
The take-away here was intended to be that in the context of the entire build, adding the connector actually requires little time or skill and its importance is often overblown. There can be many features that affect controller selection, but IMO the connector issue should not carry significant weight.

For example: in the case of the Grin Controller vs the Kelly: these controllers may have similar current ratings but otherwise have very different features: one can run sensorless, the other can't; one has real phase current sensing, the other doesn't; one is programmable, the other isn't, etc. These are significant differences that IMHO overshadow adding a connector.

It's up to each builder to weigh these factors. The intention here is only to demystify this connector issue so builders don't unnecessarily sacrifice major desirable features for a minor one-time installation savings.
 
Well said! It is not too hard to add the connector. When I got mine I do not believe Kelly offered it stock, but many others do now. My biggest issue with my Kelly controller (KEB72601) is the monstrous width which makes it very difficult to mount in a typical bike frame. The throttle is much smoother than other controllers I have tried to date and they definitely put out the power.
 
teklektik said:
spdas said:
(...I sure like the idea of a controller designed to work hand in glove with the CA) Sure would save a lot of time.
Click to expand...
Grin controllers are excellent, but do not provide any special design features to accommodate the CA beyond the CA-DP connector which can also be found on controllers from other sources. The design strength is rather exactly the opposite: it is the CA that is designed to provide full functionality with *any* controller -- regardless of whether that controller comes equipped with the special connector.

There are threads on ES describing adding a CA-DP connector to a controller in the manner that might be done by a manufacturer -- involving opening the controller and making internal modifications. That strategy frankly requires more time, skill, and risk than necessary -- Grin sells components that typically allow the CA-DP feature to be added externally with no internal controller modifications whatsoever.

Your Kelly lacks a CA-DP connector and will require an external shunt. Considering your controller current capacity, a good choice is the 'Shunt-CA3' molded external shunt (see: http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/shunts/shunt-ca3.html). Hookup of this shunt is addressed in the CA V3 Unofficial User Guide. I have not personally wired up a Kelly, but I believe you find that the more complete and specific diagram below to be accurate. This arrangement of shunt, key switch, and kill switches leaves the CA operational if the controller is shut off with the handlebar kill switch, but there are several minor variations. See the UUG for details.

As you can see, all wiring is entirely external to the controller and involves only a few connections to readily available controller signals. This will give you full access to V3 features - battery and trip statistics, thermal rollback, programmable LVC, optional PAS support, 3-position limiting switch, etc.

View attachment 1
Click to expand...


(Sorry to OT for borrowing your topic)
Thank you tekletik for your diagram and insight. I will be using the CA-DP v3 with a Kelly KLS7212 controller. Are you familliar with this controller and will it be similar to wire up like the KBS-version you described?
Here is a wiring diagram I was given by the dealer. I will be using the same external shunt as in your diagram.
13090167_1540482756255710_1139178714_n.jpg

Thank you for helping!
 
First, CA3 development has moved along and I have made an edit in the above post regarding the features and CAV3 integration with Grin controllers vs other controllers. Just an FYI...

anicaus said:
...I will be using the CA-DP v3 with a Kelly KLS7212 controller. Are you familliar with this controller and will it be similar to wire up like the KBS-version you described?
Here is a wiring diagram I was given by the dealer. I will be using the same external shunt as in your diagram.
Click to expand...
Next, see the Kelly site for more detailed KLS manual. I think this is the manual for your unit:

View attachment KellyKLS-SUserManualV1.9.pdf
Last, I have not actually rigged a Kelly controller to a CA V3 - but do believe this is correct based on CA knowledge and the Kelly documentation - so 'no guaranties'. If this is the proper manual, then everything should be fine using the diagram above (pin numbers & wire colors for the three connections of interest), EXCEPT that Kelly has a 12V brake input and seems designed for ease of use in a conventional scooter/motorcycle where a switched 12V brake light is already available.

  • This means the ebrake split between the CA and the controller as illustrated above will not work.
That said, the Kelly appears to have 'Current Throttle' so you will only need to run the CA in 'PassThru' mode which will do two things:
  • the throttle will be more responsive, and
  • there will be no throttle windup in PassThru mode (as there would be from using the CA Current Throttle mode) if the ebrakes are not connected to the CA - the CA will just pass through the throttle setting (with ramping if configured) in a plain vanilla and unsurprising way.
So - you should hook up the 12V brake to the Kelly as they indicate in their drawing and NOT connect the ebrakes to the CA at all. You can hook up the optional boost switch and analog regen to the Kelly directly as well. These should work normally and should control the motor phase amps. The CA MaxCurrent limiting, temp rollback, LVC, and optional Aux 3-postion switch (configured for 'Current Limit') should all work fine by controlling the battery current as usual.

You have a choice here of using the temp limiting on the controller or on the CA. I would choose the CA to get a temperature display and the flashing temp alert indicator. Controller temp limiting would have a similar effect but would lack the visuals and would not be as easily configurable on the road. They claim a KTY84-130 -- you can get the proper CA configuration from the spreadsheet or image on the CA Guide download post.
 
teklektik said:
  • This means the ebrake split between the CA and the controller as illustrated above will not work.
That said, the Kelly appears to have 'Current Throttle' so you will only need to run the CA in 'PassThru' mode which will do two things:
  • the throttle will be more responsive, and
  • there will be no throttle windup in PassThru mode (as there would be from using the CA Current Throttle mode) if the ebrakes are not connected to the CA - the CA will just pass through the throttle setting (with ramping if configured) in a plain vanilla and unsurprising way.
So - you should hook up the 12V brake to the Kelly as they indicate in their drawing and NOT connect the ebrakes to the CA at all. You can hook up the optional boost switch and analog regen to the Kelly directly as well. These should work normally and should control the motor phase amps. The CA MaxCurrent limiting, temp rollback, LVC, and optional Aux 3-postion switch (configured for 'Current Limit') should all work fine by controlling the battery current as usual.
Click to expand...


Thank you very much for your help.

This project is a modification of an existing rig. It is perfectly fine for me that the ebrake will be wired directly to the controller - because it is already that way.
As for what inputs I plan on wireing to the CA is the following: throttle, temp sensor, PAS cadence sensor (just for having a legal mode here in Europe) and three position switch (for selecting modes). The sensor and switch is compatible with the CA v3.

In order to comprehend what you just told me, I read a few posts you have made before about open loop vs closed loop and throttle modes. Being a 'semi-noob', I have some questions for you:

  • [1]What you mean by 'ramping' in relation to throttle - do you mean modified throttle settings within CA or some sort of stabilizing effect on the linearity of the acceleration?
    [2]
    teklektik said:
    Pass-thru mode - similar in concept to directly connecting the throttle to the controller except that the V3 may apply some Vin-to-Vout scaling and Vout ramping
    Click to expand...
    - could you just give me a brief example of what this means - what is it actually the CA can do in Pass-thru mode? What are the limits in this mode compared to Current Throttle mode?
    [3]I have only used the Current Throttle mode before with CA, is it not possible to use this mode with the Kelly controllers? Or did you just mean that the Pass-thru mode will be more responsive in that mode?
    [4]Will I have any issues with my planned PAS-mode or 3 position switch? Only 1 of the 3 modes in CA will have PAS to be selected by the switch. The other modes will contain speed or amp limits. I plan on connecting the PAS-sensor and the switch directly into the CA.
    [5]Will I still be able to dictate speed limits within CA when the throttle is in Pass-thru mode?

I understand you cannot make any guarantees, but you have a better understanding of all of this, so your help is appreciated. Still waiting on a few parts, so I will not make any reports for yet a while. But I will post here when I have tested it.
 
  1. anicaus said:
    What you mean by 'ramping' in relation to throttle - do you mean modified throttle settings within CA or some sort of stabilizing effect on the linearity of the acceleration?
    Click to expand...
    The CA3 up/down/Fast rate ramping settings. See the Guide section "4.8 Adjust Throttle Ramping"
  2. anicaus said:
    could you just give me a brief example of what this means - what is it actually the CA can do in Pass-thru mode? What are the limits in this mode compared to Current Throttle mode?
    Click to expand...
    In passThru mode, the CA scales the ThrottleIn 0-100% across the configured input range, then converts the 0-100% setting by scaling it across the configured output range. It applies ramping in the last step to clamp the rate at which the throttle voltage is allowed to change. Again, this is just saying that if configured, ramping will be applied - otherwise ThrottleOut just tracks ThrottleIn after voltage shifting and scaling.

    With Current throttle, ThrottleOut is controlled by the PID controller - not directly by ThrottleIn.
  3. anicaus said:
    I have only used the Current Throttle mode before with CA, is it not possible to use this mode with the Kelly controllers? Or did you just mean that the Pass-thru mode will be more responsive in that mode?
    Click to expand...
    You can try to use CA3 Current throttle, but since the Kelly already has Current throttlethat is presumably hooked to phase Amps, you will have two PID controllers trying to do similar things - not a good plan.

    More importantly in this case - if you hook the ebrakes only to the controller - which you have to do in this case - and use CA Current Throttle, then when you brake, the controller will cut the power causing the CA Amp measurement to fall. Unless the throttle is actually ZERO, the CA will not know that the brakes are on and will crank up ThrottleOut to compensate - pushing the controller throttle signal the way to WOT in an attempt to restore the proper current as set by the throttle. When you release the brakes, the controller will get slammed with WOT and you will be surprised and unhappy. This does not happen with PassThru. If you are careful about brake and throttle overlap, CA Current Throttle may work for you, but this issue is why the CA has an ebrake input...

    PassThru mode is more responsive than Current Throttle because there is no PID controller involved - it's straight "Pass Thru" with no feedback control.
  4. anicaus said:
    Will I have any issues with my planned PAS-mode or 3 position switch? Only 1 of the 3 modes in CA will have PAS to be selected by the switch. I plan on connecting the PAS-sensor and switch into the CA.
    Click to expand...
    I'm not sure what you are asking. There's no reason the 3-position switch will not work with PAS whether you using it to select presets of limit PAS assist.
  5. anicaus said:
    Will I still be able to dictate speed limits when the throttle is in Pass-thru mode?
    Click to expand...
    Yes.

You did not mention originally that you have PAS. This may be a problem with no ebrake input to the CA. PAS has a little overrun when you stop pedaling but ebrakes cut the power immediately as a way to override PAS. You can try it, put it's not a great situation. Here I might recommend that you hook one ebrake to the controller using 12V, and hook the other to the CA the normal way. This is the sleazy no-extra-electronics way to do it, but this will give you PAS cutoff, allow you to more safely experiment with CA Current Throttle, and still use the controller regen.
 
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