You gotta love the Cycle Analyst

So, when I originally electrified my velomobile, I simply installed a Cyclone motor, a battery and a throttle. It worked but it was hardly legal, and that concerned me - especially considering the new, tougher law on overpowered e-bikes that recently went into effect in my country.

Then I thought: maybe there's a device that could limit the power *and* the maximum speed my bike can reach, without taking apart the motor or controller. Two minutes of googling and a couple emails to the manufacturer revealed that, yes, indeed the Cycle Analyst can do all that. Great! I ordered a CA, installed it, worked out the technical problems and hey presto, I had a legal bike.

But then I thought: the maximum speed regulation isn't very stable. I wish I could adjust the governor's parameters so it reached 25 kph and stayed there, instead of oscillating around the target speed. Well, the CA lets you do that! A couple of miles and a few adjustments later, the speed limiter worked perfectly.

Then I thought: my throttle isn't very progressive. I wonder if my CA could "widen" the throttle voltage band artificially. Why yes, yes it can do that. Slick!

Then I thought: maybe I can selectively disable the legal bull. Sure the CA does it too: enable a "legal" and "unlimited" preset, and with a couple of key presses, I can make my bike legal or illegal at will. Neat!

And then I thought: maybe I could set it so it's legal by default, and only switches to the illegal preset when I do it on purpose. Sure, you can set the CA to do that. Alright!

And then I thought: it'd be neat if I could have some hidden reed switch and a discreet magnet in front of it to select the illegal preset. See the fuzz? Rip off the magnet and it immediately switch back to the legal preset. Why, sure the CA can do that too! I installed a reed switch disguised as a filtering capacitor on the pot aux entry, visited the setup menu, and voila! Hidden legal/illegal switch.

And then I thought: what if, by some incredible stroke of bad luck, whoever inspects the bike to determine its legality (cop not very likely, but insurance expert more likely) visits the setup menu and realizes there are 2 presets that are externally selectable. This is starting to look very unlikely, but it's possible, right? So I wondered: would there be a way to hide the aux pot setup menu from the main setup menu, so that nobody knows it's possible to select a preset with that fake capacitor that's connected to the aux entry? Well guess what: sure the CA does that too!

Set up the way it is now, anybody who inspects my bike to determine whether there's anything fishy with the electric motor installation would have to be very familiar with the CA, and have a CA<->PC cable and setup utility installed. Short of willingly killing someone with my bike, I can't imagine anyone going to all that trouble to figure out the tricks involved to disable the legal preset.

How great is the CA hey? What a wondeful, cleverly-designed little device! Well worth the money if you ask me...

If you ask me, you have your CA programmed to legal limits when they stop you, you are legal.

But that would apply to all three positions of a three speed switch, if you are using that feature, IMO. I don't think it's going to fly to just flip the switch to legal, as the cop gets out of the car. All the presets would have to also be legal.

Not hard to reset the whole thing, as you leave town and the chances of a cop encounter diminish greatly. 8)

If I'm stopped, the only available preset is "legal" - and that's legal, obviously.

The trick is, there is no visible switch. There's only a reed switch hidden inside an empty capacitor, mounted on the side of the boom. When I stick a magnet next to it (the magnet is inside a folded piece of velcro), the reed switch closes and the preset switches to "unlimited" in the CA. When I rip off the velcro with the magnet in it, the CA switches back to "legal" and stays there.

When you use the aux pot as preset input, the magic key combo to switch presets (left button + right button) is disabled. So without the magnet, it looks like there's only one "legal" preset. In the setup menu, the aux pot input menu is hidden, and so is the presets menu. The only giveaway would be that there are missing setup menu items (you'd have to be a CA expert to know this) or to disconnect my fake capacitor.

I mean, one who knows the CA inside and out would figure it out pretty quickly. But one who isn't wouldn't.

Sounds to me like no cop would find that switch. But it may not matter if he still clocked you going 35 mph up a hill.

I'd go for it, but ride in the legal mode in town if cops are really a problem where you live. Where I am, 30 mph is legal, but riding mopeds on the bike trail is not. Nevertheless, when cops see me riding on an empty bike trail at 30 mph, they just grin at me. They would not, if I was scaring people walking with their baby in a buggy. When sharing the trail, I slow dramatically to pass folks.

To clarify, in my state all motorized bikes are mopeds, but mine looks somewhat like a bike. It's not a scooter. But at 30 mph not pedaling, it's fairly obvious I'm motorized, and illegal on the trail. The cops simply don't care if I'm not causing a problem.

No pass sensor(trapondersteuning) just throtle....?is stil nog legal in the low lands :lol:
Only assist is legal:max watts 250 and max assist speed 25km/h.

I think this is more a problem for the law?you are now riding a ev not a paddel assist?

The CA is a nice tool to see what youre motor/battery is dropping out/in....not realy need a CA for a legal speed i think?there are more and easy/cheaper ways to make a simpel legal speed switch?

Joachim said:

No pass sensor(trapondersteuning) just throtle....?is stil nog legal in the low lands :lol:

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Well, the law says that "the assist system may not provide assistance without pedaling". It doesn't say anything about throttle. My rationale is that the only way for my motor to "provide assistance without pedaling" is if I unclip and let the motor turn the cranks all by itself. Only if I do that, since I don't have enough space in the velomobile to fold my legs, the pedals would quickly strike my shins. So in effect, I can't use the motor without pedaling

Additionally, I set the CA so it needs a minimum speed to power the motor. That means I have to at least get going with my legs before the motor turns on. So, stretching the definition of the law a bit, the motor won't provide assistance without me pedaling (first).

The thing is, in my installation, a PAS makes no sense: the motor drives the cranks directly. There is a freewheel to pedal without the motor, but no freewheel for the motor to power the bike without pedaling. So all a PAS would do it prevent the motor from starting without pedaling, but once it's started, it would never stop.

Joachim said:

The CA is a nice tool to see what youre motor/battery is dropping out/in....not realy need a CA for a legal speed i think?there are more and easy/cheaper ways to make a simpel legal speed switch?

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I need power regulation (the motor is 500W, it needs limiting to 250W legally) *and* speed regulation (25 kph). To my knowledge, only the CA does both. If not, in any case, I'm pretty sure it's the best tool available to do it well.

LOL

Don´t end up like this guy....

http://www.hln.be/regio/nieuws-uit-steenokkerzeel/ligfiets-fors-gepimpt-eigenaar-riskeert-celstraf-a2499941/

Rough translation:

The recumbent that was picked off the road by the police in Steenokkerzeel Belgium turns out to be highly pimped by the owner.
The man from Keersbergen placed a big battery and controller unit into his bike and got speeds , without pedaling, of up to 85 kmh, he now risks a fine of 6000,- euro and prison time up to 6 months.

Apparently he was picked of the road doing 70 kmh on the bus lane, he stated that he was just pedaling real fast, but the police didn't buy that story, so they started an investigation of their own, in police convoy some expert tried it and clocked 85kmh top speed without assist.

Secretly he is my hero, mine only does 60kmh.

Fastolfe said:

But then I thought: the maximum speed regulation isn't very stable. I wish I could adjust the governor's parameters so it reached 25 kph and stayed there, instead of oscillating around the target speed. Well, the CA lets you do that! A couple of miles and a few adjustments later, the speed limiter worked perfectly.

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Hi Fast can you tell me which adjustment you changed so that it does not "oscillate".
I have my 3-way speed switch 10/15/30 mph.
I use setting 1&2 when I attach my daughter bicycle trailer.
I would lose throttle response until the CA drops about 4 mph below my max setting and when I get it back its a big jerk in power.
Any input you can give to ease the throttle and not have it oscillate would be much appreciated.

Thank you
Simon

Truusje79 said:

LOL

Don´t end up like this guy....

http://www.hln.be/regio/nieuws-uit-steenokkerzeel/ligfiets-fors-gepimpt-eigenaar-riskeert-celstraf-a2499941/
[...]

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Wow, not good for him...

Having said that, he had it coming didn't he? I mean if that velo can get up to 85 kph, it's way overpowered for street use. I'm all for leaving the car at home and riding energy-efficient vehicles, but mounting a big motor in a velomobile like the WAW, with its puny drum brakes and bicycle tires, is reckless.

My Quest has a 500W motor, but with the gearing I use, it maxes out at 45 kph without pedaling at full power. And that's on rollers: on the road, it will get to 45 kph eventually, but it'll take half an century to get there. 45 kph is well within the reach of a reasonably fit velomobile rider on muscle power alone. I really only use my motor to help me up hills, and to accelerate harder in fast traffic for safety.

All in all, I don't think my installation shows recklessness. It's still a sensible, reasonable setup, even in illegal mode. It's not something that gets me to unsafe speeds that I couldn't reach on my own: I can do the same speeds the motor affords me if I care to sweat a bit - on the flat anyway.

So, even if I get caught, I don't think I'm in the same league as that guy.

Simonvtr said:

Hi Fast can you tell me which adjustment you changed so that it does not "oscillate".
I have my 3-way speed switch 10/15/30 mph.
I use setting 1&2 when I attach my daughter bicycle trailer.
I would lose throttle response until the CA drops about 4 mph below my max setting and when I get it back its a big jerk in power.
Any input you can give to ease the throttle and not have it oscillate would be much appreciated.

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I think my problem was different from yours: it would oscillate around the target speed, but in "slow motion". That is, it would overshoot the target speed, sloooowly wind down the motor, drop below the target speed, sloooowly wind it back up, etc... The problem for me was that I only use one magnet for the speedo pickup, so the CA would take forever to get enough speed updates to finally decide to regulate the speed one way or the other. And because the motor is also limited to 250W when I limit the speed, it would also takes forever to accelerate back up to speed.

My solution was to increase the PSGain (V/kph) setting sharply. That way, it only takes 1 kph above 25 kph to completely shut off the motor, and 1 kph below to turn it back on at full power. The governor reacts more quickly, reaches the target speed after only one overshoot and stays there. I think this worked for me because the bike accelerates so lazily at 250W, and slows down very slowly too, being a velomobile. If your bike has a more powerful motor or less favorable aerodynamics (or a speedo sensor that generates more than one pulse per wheel revolution), you might be better off playing with the IntSGain or DSGain settings.

Have you looked at the fabulous CA unofficial user guide? Appendix D is what you need: all the speed governor's parameters are well documented there.

Fastolfe,
How is your fancy throttle paddle connected to your throttle - by cable? In my Alleweder I have run out of realestate on and near the handlebars and had to mount the thumb throttle on the tiller. If I made an aluminium paddle like yours, I'd have to run the cable 180 deg. in a horizontal plane and then 90 deg. in a vertical plane to reach the paddle.
Any suggestions (or a picture) would be much appreciated. On the CA speed limiting topic I just found a suitable reed switch in the shed.....

If you have to run cables in other than gentle curves, you can add stops to the tubes (clamp on) and pulles from IGH stuff (like the old Sturmey Archer 3 speed stuff; they used pulleys to route the shifter cable around on my trike kit's axle; I'm sure you can get those separately, or make some).

amberwolf said:

If you have to run cables in other than gentle curves, you can add stops to the tubes (clamp on) and pulles from IGH stuff (like the old Sturmey Archer 3 speed stuff; they used pulleys to route the shifter cable around on my trike kit's axle; I'm sure you can get those separately, or make some).

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These 'kinda work'. They do have a tendency to rotate around the tube. That can be eliminated with a bit of double sided tape before the tie wrap is added. I would not use one for an actual 'cable stop' but they are handy for routing cables.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QICJF78

mounting a reed switch in a CAP is a clever thing. do you have pics of the opened CA? maybe send them per PM, please.

btw: 6.000.- fine? for what? you won't get a 6.000.- fine if you drive an unregistered 2000ps hot rod through the streets. so why would they fine you 6.000.- for just RIDING the bike (which now just is an non registered motor bike) without cauing any problems. no way.
in austria this would be maybe 50.- for speeding, 100.- for using the bus lane, and 50 - 200.- for riding w/o registration. if it's the first time. of course you should own a motorcyle driving license. otherwise you will be fined for that as well.

LewTwo said:

These 'kinda work'. They do have a tendency to rotate around the tube. That can be eliminated with a bit of double sided tape before the tie wrap is added. I would not use one for an actual 'cable stop' but they are handy for routing cables.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QICJF78

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That's a different thing; with cable routing--the catch is that if you run any cable in a tight curve it causes a lot more friction in it than a gentle curve, and if it's tight enough it can stick--bad for a throttle.

That was why I recommended the cable stops and pulleys to route the cable for non-gentle curves.

Do you know if using a CA to limit voltage to a motor will damage the battery?I'm planning to use a 52v Samsung 29e 11.6ah battery with a q75 and will be dialing down the amps with the CA. And yes I got a grinfineon controller

freeride rev said:

Do you know if using a CA to limit voltage to a motor will damage the battery?I'm planning to use a 52v Samsung 29e 11.6ah battery with a q75 and will be dialing down the amps with the CA. And yes I got a grinfineon controller

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a CA can't limit the voltage going to the motor. it limits the throttle's voltage if you want to, and it will reduce throttle to zero if your battery hits the set low voltage limit of the battery - if you configure the CA that way.

Thanks for the info ! New to this. So if I limit the output to the motor via the throttle/CA combo will this stress a 52 v 11ah battery or a grinfineon c-4820 gr controller? I'm basically trying to build an ultralight midrive with a 36v q75 hub motor and I already have a 52v Samsung 29e 14s*11 battery from a sweet tangent motors build Just trying to avoid purchasing another battery

sorry. i'm still not sure what your question is, so i will try to give a little bit more insight on a more general level.
you have a battery that is capable of delivering a certain current to the controller. and you have a motor that can handle a certain amount of power before it overheats. normally you program your controller to limit the power going to the motor. let's say you want it to limit to 500W (just for easier calculations).
500W and a 50V battery gives you 10A. so you would set your battery current limit in the controller to 10A max. and you would set your phase limit to something between 15-30A.
if you just connect the throttle to your controller you can ride the bike with a maximum power of 500W with this configuration. the controller sets the limit.
now with the CA in between the throttle and controller you can influence this signal. you may make 2 settings in your CA. one "unlimited (500W)" and one "legal (250W = 5A)". the CA sees the current going from the battery to the controller (by using a shunt inline) and monitors the current all the time.
for the "legal" setting: you fully open the throttle, the motor starts turning, and the shunt "measures" the current, the CA reads that (well it works a bit different, but it may be easier to understand that way) and if the current it sees is approaching 5A (see above) it starts taking back the throttle signal, so the controller does not see 100% throttle, but a bit less. it's just dialing down the throttle voltage.
so now way you're gonna damage either your motor or your battery. all the CA does is, dial down the throttle. it's EXACTLY the same as if you would close the throttle a bit.
the CA though can do much more, and does it very nicely. there are different rampings for throttle application (fast, slow ...), it measures your wattage and your capacity used, counts charge cylces etc ...
for me it's a MUST HAVE tool one all of my bikes.
to repeat again: FIRST of all you need to program your controller with the maximum power settings you want your motor to run at. THEN you use the CA to limit those values even more - if you want/need to.
got it?

edit: i just checked the controller you mentioned. all i found was, that it has 20A max battery current, and that it SEEMS to have a shunt inside, as it has the CA connector already.
but i don't know if you can program those by yourself. you should ask justin's team how it is programmed. you didn't mention what power you plan to use. if the controller is set at it's maximum power (20A), this would give you a sustained power output of 1000W. i have no idea if you want that, and if this is ok for your motor and your application needs.

Fantastic info. I really appreciate your thoroughness in explaining the functionality of these different components. Very cool. I had emailed Justin about my project (basically using the 52v battery to power a 250 watt q75 (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/593-q75-36v-front-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html) which is designed to work with 36 volts so I'll probably max the amps to something it is designed to handle. Any suggestions ? From there I might overvolt it a touch. I'm trying to get some uphill assist with minimum weight and plan to not even run a freewheel on the crankaet initially I'm building a midrive with the motor Justin did say the mentioned controller would work and he said in need to limit things with a CA so it's either the "pseudo" throttle created by the CA or ?can you program some controllers with a CA ? Again. Thank you for your help

freeride rev said:

Fantastic info. I really appreciate your thoroughness in explaining the functionality of these different components. Very cool. I had emailed Justin about my project (basically using the 52v battery to power a 250 watt q75 (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/593-q75-36v-front-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html) which is designed to work with 36 volts so I'll probably max the amps to something it is designed to handle. Any suggestions ? From there I might overvolt it a touch. I'm trying to get some uphill assist with minimum weight and plan to not even run a freewheel on the crankaet initially I'm building a midrive with the motor Justin did say the mentioned controller would work and he said in need to limit things with a CA so it's either the "pseudo" throttle created by the CA or ?can you program some controllers with a CA ? Again. Thank you for your help

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you're welcome.

you basically can't overvolt a bldc motor. at least not with the methods we are using here. the limit is of mechanical nature (bearings, etc ...) and of electrical nature. the higher the motors revs, the higher eddy current losses will become. basically you can say it will be less efficient. where this limits for a given motor lies is not to be seen from the outside and can only be tested. YOU can't do it. I can't. there is thorough testing equipment needed for this.
but basically you should be fine running a 36v labeled(!) motor at 50v. it will just run ~50% faster. using higher voltage is mostly a good thing, as you reduce amps to acchieve the same power output. 36V * 7A = 250W, 36V * 5A = 250W. for the vast majority of readers this is so small numbers that they say it won't matter. but if you compare 7A to 5A you will see that it's a decrease of 30%. and that's a lot. 2A sounds too shabby

if you can't program the controller - something is still would recommend - you can use the CA to limit current going to the motor, and it will not see more current then the set limit. the controller can NOT be programmed by the CA. the CA is for monitoring and throttle control only.

you will need a programming cable and software to do it. IF your controller is freely programmable. something i don't know.

we're probably over engineering this "problem". i'd suggest you use the controller as is, set the current (or power) limit to what you prefer (maybe something in the 250-500W range) and give it a try.

and you don't want to go WITHOUT a freewheel.

Got it . Thanks for all your help and will keep ya posted on the project. My other ride is a tangent motors Santa Cruz vp free. Super fun