Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

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Merlin
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Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by Merlin » Feb 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Hey,

i have an mxus 3000 v1 in my gf fatbike. Buyed this hubbie from a groupbuy.
it has a white cable. Searching the sphere it tells me it is the temp wire.

great.....but how can i setup this with the CA?

the CA has a 2 wire connector. Motor has only 1 wire.
I found in the Groupbuy topic this:
\/ampa wrote:So have installe motor and have it running. 8)

For all who run the Kelly + CAv3 combo following settings to note.

Odometer

23 Poles

Temperature sensor CAv3
LinearMode
Units 0,67V
Scale 177,2 Deg/V


Kelly Controller
Phase wire
B = Yellow
C = Green
A = Blue

Hall sensors

A = Yellow
C = Green
B = Blue


one wire goes through the motors white wire. the other to GND from Hall Sensors.

but i see only bullshit.... (-92° or something above 700°)


Can someone tell me how to wire that Temp Probe using the CA v3 with latest Firmware?

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by Simonvtr » Feb 07, 2016 4:29 pm

Hope this can help you setup your temp sensor.
Instructions by member icecube57

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1013306

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Feb 07, 2016 4:53 pm

AFAIK the MXUS 3K uses a KTY83/110 sensor. Here's the relevant snippet from the datasheet
KTY83-110_snap.png
KTY83-110_snap.png (59.2 KiB) Viewed 2508 times
Following the example calculations in the Guide using the data above, I get:

Temp->0degC Volts = 0.70 V
Temp->TScale = 183.3 degC/V

V@ 0degC ..... 0.820K/5.820K * 4.96V = 0.6988V
V@ 110degC... 1.774K/6.774K * 4.96V = 1.2989V

scaling factor:
(110degC - 0degC) / (1.2989V - 0.6988V) = 183.302 degC/V

So - these values aren't too far off from your settings - something else must be awry. There's really not much to screw up wiring-wise if they tied the sensor Gnd to hall Gnd - just run the white wire to the CA NTC input. There's a chance they may have reversed the sensor wiring which would foul things up since this is a polarized part (unlike an NTC 10K part).

What voltage/temp does the SETUP TEMP SENSR screen display at room temp with the settings above?
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by Merlin » Feb 09, 2016 12:15 pm

tank you for explain tek....
last 3 years i had only 10K thermistors in use. so i never know that the 2 wire CA connector only needs ONE wire (for that mxus temp sensor)

1 = CA wire 1
2 = CA wire 2
3 = White Wire MXUS
4 = Black Wire from Hall GND

1 - 3
2 - 4 .... dont work

1 - 3 .... dont work

2 - 3 .....WORKS.

no need for the 2nd wire from cycle Analast.
Maybe Tek you can explain why only one wire from CA works connecting the white MXUS wire?

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Feb 09, 2016 1:55 pm

Glad you are up and running!

Ya - a little counter-intuitive, isn't it?

In the ideal situation, the temp sensor in the motor would be connected to the two pins of the CA temp sensor and to nothing else. This gives the best signal and the most accurate readings.

Unfortunately, that requires pulling an extra wire through the axle, so the motor folks generally just tie the sensor Gnd to the hall Gnd inside the motor and route out only the signal wire. This works because the CA Gnd is tied to the controller Gnd by means of the CA-DP connector. The CA sensor input is relative to the CA Gnd (one of the two sensor connector pins) and so by a long circuitous route (pun intended), the CA sensor Gnd goes through the CA, down the CA-DP cable, into the controller to controller Gnd, then out the hall wiring to the motor where it finally meets the sensor Gnd pin (whew...)

Sharing Gnd with the halls works okay, but isn't the best means to handle a small analog signal. If you run a headlamp or something that draws a lot of power from the CA Aux power port, then there is a small voltage impressed across the Gnd wire in the CA-DP cable by the accessory current. This small voltage shift therefore appears in the circuit for the temp sensor and throws the apparent sensor voltage off a bit. This small error isn't really a big deal since the CA temp limits are just guesstimates of what's 'safe' anyway.

There are different schools of thought on running the CA sensor Gnd connection directly to the hall Gnd connection (second wire), but I prefer not to do so to minimize stray current running in and out of analog sensor pins on the CA - since any current looking for a route to controller GND (like that headlamp) would head out that way as a second parallel path to that described above. That said, doing so isn't going to damage anything electrically, but since it offers no material advantage, there seems no good reason to do it - just rely on the single CA Gnd to route power off the CA PCB as the designer intended.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teslanv » Mar 10, 2016 10:33 am

Excellent explanation, Teklektik. :)
And, yes I can confirm that all MXUS motors that have the white wire, use a KTY83/110 temp sensor.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Mar 10, 2016 10:53 am

teslanv wrote:...I can confirm that all MXUS motors that have the white wire, use a KTY83/110 temp sensor.
Super. Thanks for the verification. :D

After this config issue came up again in this thread, I posted to the V3 Guide download page a spreadsheet for calculating CA Setup values for linear temp sensors. It's just a way to do the calculations in the Guide a little more easily.

All existing KTYxxx parts are already entered and the KTY83/110 is highlighted.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by sketchism » Mar 19, 2016 5:05 am

sorry to hijack the thread,

but with the kelly KEB series it recommends a KTY84-130

will there be any issue directly using the KTY83/110 in the MXUS?


the KTY84-130 is 498Ω at 0 and 1062 at 110

and the 83 is 820Ω and 1774Ω at 110

if it was the other way around i could put a resistor in the line to make it read 1062 at 110 but its already showing higher resistance, so it would read about 30c instead

:|

what would you recommend doing to have it read correctly and give me hi temp protection, i have a ca v3 on another bike but only a v2 on this one
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Mar 19, 2016 9:15 am

sketchism wrote:...the kelly KEB series it recommends a KTY84-130

will there be any issue directly using the KTY83/110 in the MXUS?
Beyond the difference in electrical characteristics, the big difference between these parts is the temperature range - which is likely why they recommend the '84 part.
  • KTY83 = (−55) to (+175)°C
    KTY84 = (−40) to (+300)°C
Either should be fine temp-wise for hub motor applications.

That said, the electrical characteristics prevent a direct replacement so you need to see if the KEB controller can accommodate the KTY83 by configuration -- check the temp sensor menu in the KEB setup utility. I downloaded the software but it insists on talking to the controller before getting to the configuration part, so no-go for me.

Post back with the available choices ... (would be good to know... :) ). Before we start looking at work-arounds, let's see if there is actually a need, and if so, what other device choices are available.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by sketchism » Mar 19, 2016 10:25 am

thanks for the reply!

ill check the options tomorrow when its not 2am but from memory it only had the 84 range KTY84-130 - 150 etc but ill double check again tomorrow and post up the options.

i was looking at placing a resistor in the line from the thermistor to bring the values in range, but A) i can only add resistance not remove it so i cant see it working, and B) the delivery time and a cost of a resistor to suit would be almost the same as a new KTY84-130 thermistor to drop in

ill check in again tomorrow when i get the program open and linked up to confirm
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Mar 19, 2016 11:15 am

Ya - just replacing the part is certainly the way to go -- assuming you don't want to sell off your V2 and replace it with a V3... :D

The problem is that we have two linear resistance/degC relationships with different slopes. It's possible to jiggle things around so they intersect at any temperature we want - at which point they will yield the same temp reading. As we move away from that intersection in either direction, the lines diverge indicating increasing error. That said, slightly above and below the intersection, the error might not be too bad...
  • For instance, you might put a 2700ohm 1% resistor in parallel with your '83 part (across the temp signal and ground cable connections) and it will read 110degC pretty accurately with about 1% error. However, at 0degC it will have a whopping 25% error.
In the general case this doesn't look too attractive, but for the case of a simple temperature cutout (not a 'displayed' temperature over a large range), this would work okay. For temperatures close by -- say 90-130degC -- it would have manageable error since the cutoff temps are guesstimates anyhow. Or - if you wanted to spend a few minutes on the math, you could compensate in the KEB config wizard settings since you can calculate the proper 'wrong' configuration temperature to get the controller to cutout/resume 'right'.
  • R(parallel) = (R1 * R2) / (R1 + R2)
So - if the KEB can't handle the '83 part and you don't want to crack the case, this parallel-R hack should work okay.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by sketchism » Mar 21, 2016 8:55 am

thats not a bad idea! i was very close to doing it but then i couldn't source a resistor to suit locally anyway so i may as well just order a thermistor to suit haha
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by markz » Mar 31, 2016 7:48 pm

Is this
KTY83/110 sensor
confirmed for the MXUS 3KW V2 motor with Lyen Xie-Chang "Infineon" 18fet?
My temp sensor is gooped in epoxy plus it was not really deep in the windings so how deep into the windings should the temp sensor go? I am replacing all my halls with "original" Honeywell halls from Lyen.com.
teklektik wrote:AFAIK the MXUS 3K uses a KTY83/110 sensor. Here's the relevant snippet from the datasheet
KTY83-110_snap.png
Following the example calculations in the Guide using the data above, I get:

Temp->0degC Volts = 0.70 V
Temp->TScale = 183.3 degC/V

V@ 0degC ..... 0.820K/5.820K * 4.96V = 0.6988V
V@ 110degC... 1.774K/6.774K * 4.96V = 1.2989V

scaling factor:
(110degC - 0degC) / (1.2989V - 0.6988V) = 183.302 degC/V

So - these values aren't too far off from your settings - something else must be awry. There's really not much to screw up wiring-wise if they tied the sensor Gnd to hall Gnd - just run the white wire to the CA NTC input. There's a chance they may have reversed the sensor wiring which would foul things up since this is a polarized part (unlike an NTC 10K part).

What voltage/temp does the SETUP TEMP SENSR screen display at room temp with the settings above?

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by ABritInNY » Sep 19, 2016 12:11 am

I'm having a similar issue but I definitely have an NTC type therm, not linear?
I'm still getting a -18°c reading on it for some reason tho...
I have everything setup exactly as it was on the last (same) sensor, so it's a Lil confusing trying to figure out what is wrong?
A polarity issue was mentioned but apparently only affects linear types, so...??
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by miuan » Nov 11, 2016 7:49 am

Hi guys, I also have this motor. I don't use CA, just a small bar mounted 12-120V waterproof voltmerer.
Is there a similar cheap and small display that I could place along with the voltmeter?

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Nov 11, 2016 10:40 am

This can be made to do the job:

Programmable y=mx+b meter
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by trazor » Jan 10, 2018 8:31 pm

Since KTY83/84 are "end of life" and supply is low, I wonder if Kelly Controllers and CA are going to support the only thermistor from the family that is still alive: KTY81

https://community.nxp.com/thread/386126

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Jan 10, 2018 9:02 pm

trazor wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 8:31 pm
...I wonder if Kelly Controllers and CA are going to support the only thermistor from the family that is still alive: KTY81
The CA can be configured to support a wide variety of PTC devices - including all 10 versions of the KTY81.

See the table in the CA3 Unofficial Guide download post. There is also a downloadable spreadsheet there to do the math for you if you have the datasheet for a part so you can just plug the proper settings into the CA.
Easy peasy.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by tommy1212 » Jan 10, 2018 9:30 pm

I'm having trouble with a crown tc3080. Pretty sure it's a 10k ntc thermosistor. Appears to have 3 wires and ca v3 has 2. Tried every combo even removing red 5v positive. I can't find any info on the thermosistor. About to remove the thermosistor and just install one from ebikes.ca

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by tommy1212 » Jan 10, 2018 9:31 pm

Pic
20180109_193925_resized.jpg
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Jan 10, 2018 9:58 pm

Thermistors are passive two terminal devices - you have three. It appears to be a powered active device - perhaps an LM35. That is a somewhat popular part because you can read the temp with a simple voltmeter. Try hooking a DMM on volts across the white output and Gnd and see if the voltage x10 looks like the ambient temperature in degrees C (e.g. 2.75V = 27.5 degC). If it does, that's likely the part. If not, you'll need to got the vendor to identify the part.

If it's an LM35, you can follow the directions in the CA3 Unofficial Guide to hook it up. You can try it without removing the 5K resistor from the CA PCB and see how it looks. My MAC came with an LM35, and I just snipped the leads, left the old part epoxied in place, and glued down a proper 10K thermistor. Personally, I found it to be a much easier mod than getting the LM35 to work (but then, I had thermistors on the shelf, so...). You never filled in your location in your profile so I don't know where you live, but shipping from Grin can be ungood. You can usually order 10K NTC parts with the proper beta (important) on eBay for cheap if that's a consideration. The smaller or glass parts usually have the fastest response - although that's not really a big concern when glued to the windings (but if you have a choice...)
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by tommy1212 » Jan 10, 2018 11:01 pm

Thanks for the explanation. It does seem to have 3 leads. I'll test them as you said and check with em3ev. I don't mind paying for a sensor that's durable and easy to set up. My biggest concern is not trying to squeeze more wires thru the axle. Could a 10k ntc share the halls ground if I have no aux devices? What is used to glue one in place. I'm in NY btw. appreciate the help
teklektik wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 9:58 pm
Thermistors are passive two terminal devices - you have three. It appears to be a powered active device - perhaps an LM35. That is a somewhat popular part because you can read the temp with a simple voltmeter. Try hooking a DMM on volts across the white output and Gnd and see if the voltage x10 looks like the ambient temperature in degrees C (e.g. 2.75V = 27.5 degC). If it does, that's likely the part. If not, you'll need to got the vendor to identify the part.

If it's an LM35, you can follow the directions in the CA3 Unofficial Guide to hook it up. You can try it without removing the 5K resistor from the CA PCB and see how it looks. My MAC came with an LM35, and I just snipped the leads, left the old part epoxied in place, and glued down a proper 10K thermistor. Personally, I found it to be a much easier mod than getting the LM35 to work (but then, I had thermistors on the shelf, so...). You never filled in your location in your profile so I don't know where you live, but shipping from Grin can be ungood. You can usually order 10K NTC parts with the proper beta (important) on eBay for cheap if that's a consideration. The smaller or glass parts usually have the fastest response - although that's not really a big concern when glued to the windings (but if you have a choice...)

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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by teklektik » Jan 11, 2018 4:30 pm

tommy1212 wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 11:01 pm
My biggest concern is not trying to squeeze more wires thru the axle. Could a 10k ntc share the halls ground if I have no aux devices? What is used to glue one in place.
Changing3LeadSensorForNtcThermistor.jpg
Changing3LeadSensorForNtcThermistor.jpg (240.02 KiB) Viewed 114 times

Just checked - 10K Thermistors with suitable beta (3800-4000) are readily available on eBay or from Amazon. Get 'JB Weld' at Home Depot, etc.
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Re: Mxus Temp Sensor + Cycle Analyst

Post by tommy1212 » Jan 11, 2018 8:54 pm

Awesome that makes it very clear. I ordered some uxcel 10k thermosistor from Amazon. I'll post a pic after it's finished. Thanks for the help!
teklektik wrote:
Jan 11, 2018 4:30 pm
tommy1212 wrote:
Jan 10, 2018 11:01 pm
My biggest concern is not trying to squeeze more wires thru the axle. Could a 10k ntc share the halls ground if I have no aux devices? What is used to glue one in place.

Changing3LeadSensorForNtcThermistor.jpg


Just checked - 10K Thermistors with suitable beta (3800-4000) are readily available on eBay or from Amazon. Get 'JB Weld' at Home Depot, etc.

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