BMSBattery Torque sensor

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ElectricLightOrchestra
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BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 03, 2016 7:38 am

I've noticed BMSBattery have a bottom bracket torque sensor, available at reasonable price with a controller and lcd display, or pretty cheap as part of a battery pack with built in controller, lcd, throttle, cables etc package. So, a few questions about this:

- Has anyone bought/used it? Is it any good? How easy is setup? What hub have you used?
- It suggests a hub with built in speed sensor is needed - would the Q128C they also sell be a good match?
- More generally, would the 500W Q128C and the torque sensor plus battery plus controller kit (i.e. here: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/69 ... ttery.html) be a good match? I'd go for the 36v motor with high torque option, this 36v 14.5Ah Panasonic battery, the 20A sine wave controller built into the battery case, and the lcd from the kit. I'd skip the throttle, no separate speed controller is needed, and I'd make a decision on whether to use cutout brake levers or not until testing, which would make for a fairly clean, stealthy setup other than the battery case. (I'm also going to email to see if the same 20A sine wave controller will fit in their bottle case, as that only seems to come with a 250W S06p square wave controller at the moment).
- Finally, what cells do BMS use for their lower capacity batteries, as it looks like Panasonic only for the highest capacity and cost of each battery setup but its not stated what the specs of the other cells are...

Thanks!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by motomech » Apr 03, 2016 8:24 am

ElectricLightOrchestra wrote:I've noticed BMSBattery have a bottom bracket torque sensor, available at reasonable price with a controller and lcd display, or pretty cheap as part of a battery pack with built in controller, lcd, throttle, cables etc package. So, a few questions about this:

- Has anyone bought/used it? Is it any good? How easy is setup? What hub have you used?
- It suggests a hub with built in speed sensor is needed - would the Q128C they also sell be a good match?
- More generally, would the 500W Q128C and the torque sensor plus battery plus controller kit (i.e. here: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/69 ... ttery.html) be a good match? I'd go for the 36v motor with high torque option, this 36v 14.5Ah Panasonic battery, the 20A sine wave controller built into the battery case, and the lcd from the kit. I'd skip the throttle, no separate speed controller is needed, and I'd make a decision on whether to use cutout brake levers or not until testing, which would make for a fairly clean, stealthy setup other than the battery case. (I'm also going to email to see if the same 20A sine wave controller will fit in their bottle case, as that only seems to come with a 250W S06p square wave controller at the moment).
- Finally, what cells do BMS use for their lower capacity batteries, as it looks like Panasonic only for the highest capacity and cost of each battery setup but its not stated what the specs of the other cells are...

Thanks!
Has anyone bought/used it? Is it any good? How easy is setup?
It's so new that I don't think anyone here or at Pedelecs UK has used it. You would be on your own.
More generally, would the 500W Q128C and the torque sensor plus battery plus controller kit (i.e. here: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/69 ... ttery.html) be a good match? I
Yeah, I think it would.
I'd go for the 36v motor with high torque option,
If by "high torque option", you mean the 201 motor, that would be kind of slow. 201 in 26" whl. on 36 V = 17 to 18 Mph
I would use 328 of 48V version, which is the same as 260 @ 36 V. A mid-speed range which generally is the best compromise for most riders.
Unlike the Q100, the Q128 could handle enough power to use 328 in a big wheel, but it would take more than 20 Amps to make it efficient. Top speed would be around 28 MPH. Not advised for serious hills.
I'd make a decision on whether to use cutout brake levers or not until testing...
On that powerful a system, you would need an Ebrake cut for safety.
(I'm also going to email to see if the same 20A sine wave controller will fit in their bottle case, as that only seems to come with a 250W S06p square wave controller at the moment).
The 20 Amp intergrated controller only became available when the new "shark" case came out. My guess is it only fits that case.
Finally, what cells do BMS use for their lower capacity batteries, as it looks like Panasonic only for the highest capacity and cost of each battery setup but its not stated what the specs of the other cells are...
Chinese cells.
A friend has one of the genaric Li-Ion sharkies. It get used daily for 6 months, still going strong.
No doubt, the Panasonic battery would be worth the extra money though.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by flangefrog » Apr 03, 2016 10:32 am

Nice find, I've been looking at getting a TDCM torque sensor but might try one of these first. I did some sleuthing and found the sensor is made by enoeco: http://www.enoeco.com/product-item/ts-bb68/ They also have a 72mm BB version and a wireless pedal torque sensor.

They also sell sell controllers/motors, I wonder if they make them or just rebrand them?

https://plus.google.com/+EnoecoLtd

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 03, 2016 12:29 pm

Thanks for the super fast and informative reply!

I hadn't realised it was so new, and as it will be my first ebike, maybe I need to let someone else go first! Any guinea pigs?

I'm actually wondering if I should go for a smaller, lighter and less powerful motor anyway, as I'm more interested in the pedal plus torque assist side of things - this will mostly be used by my wife to help her up a few short but steepish hills and add a few mph to her cruising speed, rather than as a WOT speed machine! I didn't realise the Q100 was much smaller/lighter as some of the pics make it look the same size as the Q128, but maybe one of those (as they also have the built in speed sensor) would be better.

Maybe with the smaller less powerful motor I wouldn't need the cutout brakes. I also wondered if the torque sensor meant it cut as soon as you stopped pedalling, to feel more like a normal bike, but I guess if no-one has tried it yet we won't know. Is that what happens with i.e. the Bosch/bionix torque setups?

Will have to see if the money for the Panasonic batts is worth it, thanks for letting me know that they are 'OK' then!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by WoodlandHills » Apr 03, 2016 12:33 pm

I am intrigued by the wireless pedal torque sensors. I wonder how they tell if you are standing on the pedals and not pedaling? They could be a way to get a true torque sensing PAS on a Bafang.....

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 03, 2016 12:38 pm

Good spot on the sensors too! The pedal sensors do look intriguing too and if they do what they say should work with bafang etc too. It's not clear what they wirelessly transmit to though i.e. what the receiver is! Could it be the display?

They actually seem to offer full kits that might be exactly what I am looking for, and presumably all fit and work together well. It's not clear what the motor is, I presume someone elses! The prices seem pretty good too, i.e. $350 for the full kit with the lowest capacity battery. Hmmmm...!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by flangefrog » Apr 03, 2016 12:53 pm

WoodlandHills wrote:I am intrigued by the wireless pedal torque sensors. I wonder how they tell if you are standing on the pedals and not pedaling? They could be a way to get a true torque sensing PAS on a Bafang.....
Maybe they detect if the pedal axle is turning? Or they might just be made to work in conjunction with a standard PAS.

I found another sensor by Sempu which looks like it might be good (for me, not for using with a mid drive): http://www.sempu.net/goods/4.htm I think this is the one sold by BTN (Back to Nature)

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by motomech » Apr 03, 2016 2:47 pm

The video is interesting. I think i know how it works.
Perhaps there is some sort of spring inside the bracket shell that creates a resistance that has to be overcome before the cam arm will move back and forth.
The normal magnet disc provides cadance and the moving arm provides some sort of torque threshold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvtZZICw ... e=youtu.be

Their test stand looks HD enough to test tank parts.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 03, 2016 3:26 pm

Nice vid! So possibly has the similar issue the XOFO hubs do, of 'knocking' when you hit the limits of the cam arm/spring movement. The BB notch for the wire is a little neater/easier than the BB shell hole you need for the other (strain gauge) BB torque sensors. If they can do the pedal wirelessly, I'd have thought a wireless strain gauge BB would be the way forwards...

Enoeco shopping cart checkout doesn't seem to work, they are on alibaba but minimum order size of 10 and the kits are a little different (controller not built into battery case etc). I'll email them, the live chat doesn't seem to be live!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 06, 2016 7:02 am

Still waiting for an email reply from Enoeco...

On alibaba at least it looks like you can configure the Enoeco kits with whatever motor, battery, controller, display etc you want from the ones they offer. So here's my question-/wish-list, any thoughts?

Can anyone tell what motors they are using - their own or someone elses?

I'm trying to figure if you can get one of their low power (250W/350W) geared motors with either a cassette body or a freewheel and room for an 8 speed freewheel on a 135mm spaced frame. They claim there is a cassette version on alibaba but I can't find any pics of it! Also mention a wide range of windings - 180:370 RPM. I guess somewhere around the 260 mark seems to be what people go for for an all-round small motor?

Not sure what the controller they offer for the built in to the battery box model, possibly only a 6 Mosfet 15A version, but will push for a 9 Mosfet 22A one if possible for more power/later upgrades. Looks like sine wave is available as well as square, does that make any difference if you are using a torque sensor instead of throttle/PAS speed sensor?

Batteries also look promising if they are as advertised as they offer Samsung 2200 mah and 2600 mah plus Panasonic 2900 mph options. The claimed 1200 recharge cycles seems to be the only exaggeration!

Their consoles also look different to the standard ones that come with most kits.

Anyway, lets hope they come through. Still no-one else keen to bite the bullet and test a kit from BMS or Enoeco?

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by flangefrog » Apr 06, 2016 7:47 am

I tried to send a message to Enoeco via Alibaba but it wasn't sending. I just contacted them on their live chat and was replied very promptly by Stefanie who has promised to send me a quote tomorrow for a torque sensor, 6 fet square and 6 fet sine controller.

I've also received this document from Sempu Motor regarding their torque sensor which in my opinion looks nicer (aesthetically) than Enoeco's one.
Attachments
SEMPU+2016+Torque+Sensor+Technical+Profie.pdf
(713.49 KiB) Downloaded 98 times

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 07, 2016 12:53 am

Good to know about Enoeco - I just emailed them directly from their website; I tried the live chat on there but that also didn't work...

I agree the Sempu Motor BBs look a lot nicer, I guess they are proper strain gauges like the more expensive ones from other manufacturers - so possibly it's also more expensive! Their conversion kit looked a bit less 'slick' than the Enoeco one (I couldn't tell if the controller was built into the battery case which I would be keen on, etc). Maybe I'll contact them too...

Let me know how much the sensors etc are from them, are you thinking it will be less then from BMSbattery if bought direct?

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 07, 2016 2:14 am

OK, had a great chat with Chiang at Enoeco. Am now waiting for a quote for a full T1 kit with the BB sensor - 250W or 350W motors available, and Samsung or Panasonic 36v batteries from 8.8Ah to 11.6Ah.

They also have a wireless display unit coming out next month that will presumably work with the wireless pedal torque sensors, which is very interesting - I wonder if it could be hooked up with high end wireless torque sensors like Stages, powertap etc...

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by motomech » Apr 07, 2016 2:45 am

That's great. Looking forward to a full report.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by flangefrog » Apr 07, 2016 4:05 am

My quote from Enoeco:

Bottom Bracket Torque Sensor TS-BB68: US$60
6MOSFET Sine Wave Controller CT-L250T: US$34
6MOSFET Square Wave Controller CT-X250T: US$19
(*All with waterproof connector)

Express Fee: US$30.0 (to New Zealand)

Total: US$113.0

I think the total left out the shipping by mistake.

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 07, 2016 4:35 am

Interesting, as the prices from BMSbattery for the same components seem cheaper! BMS shipping is maybe more though - isn't the Express fee to New Zealand the shipping? (Edit - just noticed it is in the list but not in the total! Maybe you should pull the trigger quick at the 'without shipping' total!)

i.e. BMS sine wave 6 mosfet controller is $24
BMS square wave 6 mosfet controller is $15-$18

(though these probably aren't the precise torque sensing controllers needed, just the closest I could find).

The kit with BB torque sensor, sine wave controller, and LCD ($30 separately) is $106 on BMS, which going by Enoeco prices means $60 BB, $34 controller, so it would be like getting the LCD for just $12...

The price of i.e. the BB sensor is in the middle of the range of their Alibaba prices too which are based on 10-50-100 units.

I'm interested in what motor/display you're planning to connect these to? I'm still trying to figure out whose motor the Enoeco units are if not their own (I get the impression they make sensors and LCD displays themselves, assemble the batteries, but ship in the motors and possibly controllers, I could be wrong though!)

Hope my full kit price comes through soon!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 07, 2016 1:06 pm

Hmm, $369-$384 seems good value for the kit (including Samsung/Panasonic battery) but the postage quote was $250, eeek! It's Fedex express so would be quick and presumably secure, but pretty steep price wise.

Is that usual for a full kit including built wheel? I tried adding up a full kit at BMSBattery but couldn't add a wheel to the basket for some reason, so can't figure how much their shipping charges are.

I asked if Enoeco could look at cheaper shipping, let's see...

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by motomech » Apr 08, 2016 8:48 am

That's in the goods/shipping ratio that I have been charged over the years. That would be some items from Elifebike, but mostly BMS battery.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1237928

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 08, 2016 2:03 pm

Yeah, BMS battery want $340 shipping for more or less the same kit, so even more... (This is all to Helsinki, Finland, which tends to be more expensive than the US or UK anyway).

I've asked about slower/cheaper options with Enoeco, but will ask about multiple orders too as the postage per unit goes down a lot quite quickly (as well as the price per unit) so it may be worth ordering a few kits, or e.g. spare batteries, and selling some items on.

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by greg_p » Apr 09, 2016 4:49 am

And with bms, they often ask for post payment ... it arrived me twice, the eason why I will not order them anymore...

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 11, 2016 2:18 am

Flange frog - what was the setup you were planning with the sensor/controller? Did you get a quote from Sempu for the BB?

I like the Enoeco kit generally better than the Sempu kit (integrated sine controller in battery case, multiple battery options with branded cells, 135mm hub instead of 145mm, much nicer looking display etc) but the actual torque sensor isn's so good. You have to cut the BB shell a little, and I'm having issues getting the spindle length specifications, they are currently saying 138mm spindle length for a 68mm BB shell which is very long and puts the chainlink way out (68mm shell starts usually at 107mm axle upwards). I'm getting photos with measurements soon, as their diagrams look quite wrong (the side with the sensor plastic ring plus protruding axle is shorter than the protruding axle on the drive side etc). Sempu offer a range of square taper BB spindle lengths from 107mm up...

Maybe I'll order a single BB from Sempu plus kit from Enoeco, and see if I can figure a way to get the Sempu BB to talk to the rest of the Enoeco kit. The ease of a single kit guaranteed to work together is a big plus though.

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by ElectricLightOrchestra » Apr 23, 2016 3:21 pm

OK the left side of the EnoEco BB is quite wide (I guess obvious in retrospect, but looks to add about 25mm or so to the left axle length, the right side looks like a fairly normal chainline). The Sempu BB is much better in that respect being available in standard BB lengths. Anyone got any thoughts on how well the Sempu BB would talk to the EnoEco controller and display, would it be plug and play?!

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by crossbreak » Jul 02, 2016 6:38 pm

Interesting topic, said that this didnt go on further? I saw these Torque sensing Bottom Brackets on Aliexpress recently. Seems like a good price, seems to be double sided measurement (really?? never saw that before) and even available with ISIS standard :shock: The store is: phoebe vehicle and parts http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 03270.html

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by d8veh » Jul 04, 2016 5:55 am

The OEM bikes with Bosch, Panasonic, Brose and similar motors have pretty sophisticated software in them that integrates crank torque, cadence and bike speed to get the right power characteristics. The Chinese torque sensors that I tried, just didn't cut it. Some were no more than a switch, others were simple power proportional to torque, which also is not ideal. I guess the Chinese will eventually figure out what's required.

Whether you have a rotational sensor or torque sensor, each system has advantages and disadvantages that tend to cancel each other out, so they end up equal, unless you have some personal preference. Like with the Bosch system, you need both simultaneously to get an advantage, otherwise it's just added complication, expense and weight, or, worse still, it might even make your bike worse to ride. especially in Europe where throttles are not allowed.

Has anybody tried an after-market torque sensing system that was actually significantly better than a modern PAS system?

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Re: BMSBattery Torque sensor

Post by Avitt » Jul 04, 2016 5:31 pm

d8veh wrote: Has anybody tried an after-market torque sensing system that was actually significantly better than a modern PAS system?
I've added a BeamTS torque sensor, which, when combined with a modern PAS system, has significantly improved my throttle-less experience: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=67086

However, given the option of just one or the other (torque sensor vs modern PAS system) I would definitely go with the PAS system.

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