Should I upgrade my Rayos 600w DD w/ 1000w hub motor?

Hello all!

I have a Rayos 8 speed 600 watt direct drive bike and it works well on light paths but it's a little rough on trails with roots and rocks, should I upgrade it somehow, perhaps by putting a hub motor on the front to give it more speed? Or just look into getting a new one and put my 1000 watt conversion kit on another bike?

What do you all think? I'm new to this so if it seems like an insanely bad idea please tell me

Thank you very much for your time!

I don’t understand the question? If it’s

a little rough on trails

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why would you want more speed?

I would try bigger/fatter tires to soften ride a bit?

Or, maybe you mean that more speed could get you away from trails and out on the streets? I’m not getting the picture here.

Speaking of which, a picture of the current bike would be very helpful to better help you.

I'm looking at the hub motor for the speed for getting to the trails, and the direct drive motor for the torque on the trails, and I was wondering as well if there were any tweaks or upgrades i can do for my bike to make the rocks and roots more bearable, I dont know if thats a bad question

I put the fattest tire the frame could support on the back, but didn't on the front. So it's probably a good idea to follow suit on the front while I'm at it.

Oh yeah, the Rayos - I get it now. One of those hanging off the rear frame direct drives. Got one of those motor drives myself somewhere here but I’m not using it so that might be a clue?

If that were mine I’d definitely go rear DD hub, 1000W or so. Build a new rear wheel (13/14ga butted spokes) or rebuild using that rim which is probably fairly decent?

I’d try to fit 26” 2.4” CST Cyclops tires on it and look into upgrading shock and forks but that would probably get expensive?

Clean, lube and adjust brakes. All in all you could do a lot worse for a donor frame, IMO.

EDIT - I re-read and realize you wanna put that DD upfront? Okay, that might work okay since I believe that's a steel suspension fork. But, you're gonna wind up with a ridiculously heavy eBike with both power systems. I'd dump that idea and do what I mentioned except it looks like you already have a front DD motor, right? Rock and a hard place, ugh...

Haha it appears Rayos has created a sour name for itself.

So the frame is good though? I would be happy to upgrade as long as the frame will last me

Yeah. I bought the conversion kit because I wanted to get into electric bikes and didn't want to pay 1000's of dollars just to ride one, and didn't buy a battery for it, then came across the rayos on craigslist for 300, and then bought a 24v 25ah Lithium Manganese battery for about 560, and now I'm looking to get more power and faster speeds!

I dunno about “sour name” but it’s just an outdated way of doing it (motor drive). ‘Never really took off or made as much sense as BLDC hub motors.

But yes, good heavy frame, wide rims, good enough brake calipers. Fork sucks and so do those pogo spring shocks but maybe can upgrade later? At least it has springs to absorb some road punishment but do keep speeds reasonable for road conditions.

Stuff that battery housing with modern chemistry and voltage. As I said, you could do a lot worse for a donor eBike frame.

Maybe I'm nostalgic for it because it was one of the bikes that lured me into this hobby so long ago.
But that is in such good shape it belongs in a ebike museum or on the garage wall.
I'd leave it as is, let it be a friend bike and build your kit on something else.

Ahh I see, that's a good to hear! (name isn't sour)

Hell yeah! So I'll replace the front fork, and the shocks, are there good ones that are reasonably priced but solid construction and can take hard trails you would suggest?

What do you think about the lithium manganese?

Thank you Brentis, that is kind.

Where do you think a good place to start for me would be since I already have a front hub motor?

I have a 26" 21-speed GMC Yukon, as well as a 26" 24-speed Specialized Hardrock for mountain bikes but I don't know if they would be good to use..

What do you think?

The Hardrock is a hardtail btw

Bob Loblaw said:

Thank you Brentis, that is kind.

Where do you think a good place to start for me would be since I already have a front hub motor?

I have a 26" 21-speed GMC Yukon, as well as a 26" 24-speed Specialized Hardrock for mountain bikes but I don't know if they would be good to use..

What do you think?

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You may not like what I think.
I don't like front DD hubs, especially on a suspension fork.
I assume both your MTB's have front suspension forks.
I'd sell it and buy a rear kit, but if you stick with it make sure to use two torque arms.
The hardrock is a good quality bike, I'd build on it.

Put the Rayos up for sale and someone that wishes to "preserve it" can put money where their mouth is.

I wouldn't hesitate to convert it and probably do it before a "nice" quality pedal bike. But, everybody's different.

Ykick said:

Put the Rayos up for sale and someone that wishes to "preserve it" can put money where their mouth is.

I wouldn't hesitate to convert it and probably do it before a "nice" quality pedal bike. But, everybody's different.

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I'd love to "preserve it" and put my money where my mouth is, but I'm in another country. With a shit dollar, high taxes and custom fees. Plus the shipping of lithium batteries has gotten expensive and complicated. With his $500+ battery I'd be looking at well over a $1000 US dollars landed.
Still my desire is strong and opinion remains. Leave this as a friend bike and build your kit on something else.
24 volts on that DD hub is not going to gain him any speed unless it has a very high kv.

I appreciate everyone's opinion that is contributing

Ok so, so far it's the general consensus that it's preferable to go with the rear wheel hub and it would be in my best interest to sell the other one. That sounds good to me if it will give me favorable results!

As much as I would like to preserve it and put it to that end, I don't have any buyers who would make it worth my while sadly

Wouldn't it be a little tough to put a rear hub onto a hardtail bike or is it not really a big deal?

Until I get a buyer I will begin to plan to upgrade the fork and shocks. Do you all know of any particular fork or shock models that you would suggest?

Ykick said:

I’d try to fit 26” 2.4” CST Cyclops tires on it and look into upgrading shock and forks but that would probably get expensive?

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Oh also, I checked out the tires you suggested and I'm very curious and interested in why you choose a smooth tire rather than one that has the deep spiked treads along with a puncture proof liner?

There is no such thing as “puncture proof”. That only exists in “marketing engineering” copy. I’m of the opinion liners create more problems than they solve. On my rear hub motor wheel I use thick downhill tubes and a few ounces of Slime. Front wheel, regular duty tube and generally no Slime. There's plenty of threads/discussions about preventing flats. Yeah, right! When you hit the right debris at the right angle, it's gonna puncture. All the marketing hype in the world isn't gonna stop it. Only reason I use Slime is to help identify a leak and hopefully slow it down enough to get somewhere for repair.

And I dunno what you mean about “deep spiked treads”? Do you mean knobbies? Knobbies are a waste on the street and I thought that’s what riding style you were going for? I do ride those Cyclops on hard packed dirt, gravel, sand. Plenty of traction for most any dry surface. Wet, muddy? You’ll need knobbies and a good water hose to clean up afterwards.

I wouldn’t get too worked up about better forks/shocks yet. Sort the conversion 1st and just be on the lookout for better suspension components? I wouldn’t recommend new stuff unless you just got money to burn.

I found a good Marzzochi fork on PinkBike. I’ve never bought loose shocks. All the Fox Float shocks I’ve got came on various bikes - salvage is the only reasonable way to get such parts.

You can definitely put a rear hub in a hardtail. It just won’t have as much cushion as suspension bike.

Sleep on it, think it over. You’ve got many options here. I just believe replacing the entire power system on the Rayos would make it a much better eBike than it ever hoped to be using that goofy original drive setup.

Hmm, how to put this gently....

The bike IS an interesting museum piece, and still quite usable for street riding.

But for off road, uhh, the term is bike shaped object. Yes, it has suspension, but not very good suspension.

How much off road riding do you want to do? the ante for a semi good off road e bike is about $2500, or at least $2000. But on the bottom end of the scale, there are some bikes at Walmart that will at least perform better than your Rayos frame. The genesis or mongoose models that cost about $150 ish.

Look for the shock mount that attaches to a rocker on seat post, this is called 4 bar suspension, and makes the rear suspension surprisingly good for a 20 buck shock. the front fork can be used awhile, then upgraded later if the headset is 1 1/8 instead of 1".

Better, find a decent full suspension bike used, that once sold for $1000-2000. Pay no more than $500 of course, it may need new shocks.

Once the bike upgrade is sorted out, a real good choice would be a 500w rated planetary geared motor, for the rear wheel. Something like the Mac, bafang 8 fun, or E-bikekit. On 48v, a 1000w rear motor.

Even nicer perhaps for off road, a mid drive kit like the Bafang BBs02. You'll have close to $1500 into a really nice motor and battery.

I agree with dogman on this one...Thats a 24V SLA pack, and not only is it a low-amp battery, it is short range and will likely be dead soon. So...The battery will need to be updated in the near future for anyone who wants to use it. There has to be a way to get that controller to work on 36V of lithium. I'm pretty sure the motor and controller are brushed (not positive). I think the motor is a little larger than the eZip Trailz, but in the same Currie motor family.

https://www.electricbike.com/2014-ezip-trailz-lithium/

These motors can't take higher amps, but you can boost the volts about one step up without risking damage to the brushes. A new 36V controller that is from Currie (so the connectors are plug-and-play) is about $40, a 36V bottle battery from Luna is about $340, and charger at $80. If you GAVE me that bike for free with a dead SLA pack, I'd pay the $460 to make it a 36V street commuter. But...if you were selling it for $100 with a dead SLA pack...I'm afraid the numbers just don't make it worth it for me.

Having a cheap suspension is better than no suspension when you hit a pothole, but once you've ridden a higher quality off-road bicycle, you realize why so many people spend a high price to get one, and upgrading the shocks on this Rayos isn't going to suddenly change it into a thoroughbred.

Figure out the type of riding you like to do, then figure out which frame is the reasonably affordable option for that riding (I wish I could recommend something, but off-road isn't my game), then research the kit that will fit what you like.

Bob Loblaw said:

Hello all!

I have a Rayos 8 speed 600 watt direct drive bike and it works well on light paths but it's a little rough on trails with roots and rocks, should I upgrade it somehow, perhaps by putting a hub motor on the front to give it more speed? Or just look into getting a new one and put my 1000 watt conversion kit on another bike?

What do you all think? I'm new to this so if it seems like an insanely bad idea please tell me

Thank you very much for your time!

Click to expand...

Bob Loblaw said:

I'm looking at the hub motor for the speed for getting to the trails, and the direct drive motor for the torque on the trails, and I was wondering as well if there were any tweaks or upgrades i can do for my bike to make the rocks and roots more bearable, I dont know if thats a bad question

Click to expand...

Bob Loblaw said:

Yeah. I bought the conversion kit because I wanted to get into electric bikes and didn't want to pay 1000's of dollars just to ride one, and didn't buy a battery for it, then came across the rayos on craigslist for 300, and then bought a 24v 25ah Lithium Manganese battery for about 560, and now I'm looking to get more power and faster speeds!

Click to expand...

It seems that some of the facts are being lost to opinion.

1. You got a sweet old ebike. The Rayos 8 It is not your typical Currie brush motor based kit. It runs a BMC BLDC motor. 600w @ 24v. *for $300
2. You bought a new 24v 25ah Lithium battery. *for $560
3. You bought a front DD 1000w kit. That rating was likely at 48v. Do you have a link to the source? *for $?

Some reality, that hub motor is unlikely to add anything towards speed at 24v and your battery likely won't be able to supply the current necessary for dual systems. It would be useful if you had a link to the battery source.
The best route for you to have gotten more speed would be to have bought a 36v battery. I seem to recall guys "hotrodding" their BMC's to 36v back in the day. The stock controller should be able to handle it.

So what do you do? It's a tough one.
Trying to recoup your money spent on the battery and hub is going to be tough.
We would have to investigate your controller a lil before spending the money, but buying a 36v battery for the stock system would give you approx what 33% more speed.
It should be easy enough to find a 36v battery to fit that case and youll still look stock, but flying in comparison.
Guess a lot of what you do depends on your budget.
Still haven't considered suspension. More $ there. Id investigate a new front fork, hopefully it's 1 1/8th, but leave the dual pogo rear.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

All the best.

Ykick said:

There is no such thing as “puncture proof”. That only exists in “marketing engineering” copy. I’m of the opinion liners create more problems than they solve. On my rear hub motor wheel I use thick downhill tubes and a few ounces of Slime. Front wheel, regular duty tube and generally no Slime. There's plenty of threads/discussions about preventing flats. Yeah, right! When you hit the right debris at the right angle, it's gonna puncture. All the marketing hype in the world isn't gonna stop it. Only reason I use Slime is to help identify a leak and hopefully slow it down enough to get somewhere for repair.

And I dunno what you mean about “deep spiked treads”? Do you mean knobbies? Knobbies are a waste on the street and I thought that’s what riding style you were going for? I do ride those Cyclops on hard packed dirt, gravel, sand. Plenty of traction for most any dry surface. Wet, muddy? You’ll need knobbies and a good water hose to clean up afterwards.

I wouldn’t get too worked up about better forks/shocks yet. Sort the conversion 1st and just be on the lookout for better suspension components? I wouldn’t recommend new stuff unless you just got money to burn.

I found a good Marzzochi fork on PinkBike. I’ve never bought loose shocks. All the Fox Float shocks I’ve got came on various bikes - salvage is the only reasonable way to get such parts.

You can definitely put a rear hub in a hardtail. It just won’t have as much cushion as suspension bike.

Sleep on it, think it over. You’ve got many options here. I just believe replacing the entire power system on the Rayos would make it a much better eBike than it ever hoped to be using that goofy original drive setup.

Click to expand...

Ahh I see, I went with the Mr. tuffy liners on the front and back but did just regular tubes... For the slime you use, do you inject it before or after the puncture?

Haha yeah I meant knobbies! My terminology is limited due to my inexperience I'm extremely thankful and excited to know there is a community of super knowledgeable and helpful people who love to do what I love to do!! Because I definitely want to do more off road riding than riding on the street! (street riding is more fun at speeds faster than 20 mph but I'm generally unfamiliar with it..) I was only able to go at speeds of about 30 with my front hub hooked up to 4 SLAs and it dipped in voltage after less than 5 mins.. very disappointing. So maybe I would like street riding better, I won't know until I try it out I suppose! I just really like the idea of going through the woods effortlessly and being able to do it in a way more exciting manner than just jogging or hiking.

What should I look for in suspension components to know their quality? Because I'm working off a pretty limited budget at the moment. I pretty much stick with craigslist as I haven't found many other avenues more advantageous.. What other methods of salvage do you find of value?

Now in regard to putting a rear hub on a hardtail, I'm not so concerned about the comfort of the ride at the moment, I'm more concerned with the hub rattling itself off the frame or it just becoming a maintenance nightmare you know what i mean? Am I just making something out of nothing or is that a real concern?

Mistake*

Mistake*

Brentis said:

Bob Loblaw said:

Hello all!

I have a Rayos 8 speed 600 watt direct drive bike and it works well on light paths but it's a little rough on trails with roots and rocks, should I upgrade it somehow, perhaps by putting a hub motor on the front to give it more speed? Or just look into getting a new one and put my 1000 watt conversion kit on another bike?

What do you all think? I'm new to this so if it seems like an insanely bad idea please tell me

Thank you very much for your time!

Click to expand...

Bob Loblaw said:

I'm looking at the hub motor for the speed for getting to the trails, and the direct drive motor for the torque on the trails, and I was wondering as well if there were any tweaks or upgrades i can do for my bike to make the rocks and roots more bearable, I dont know if thats a bad question

Click to expand...

Bob Loblaw said:

Yeah. I bought the conversion kit because I wanted to get into electric bikes and didn't want to pay 1000's of dollars just to ride one, and didn't buy a battery for it, then came across the rayos on craigslist for 300, and then bought a 24v 25ah Lithium Manganese battery for about 560, and now I'm looking to get more power and faster speeds!

Click to expand...

It seems that some of the facts are being lost to opinion.

1. You got a sweet old ebike. The Rayos 8 It is not your typical Currie brush motor based kit. It runs a BMC BLDC motor. 600w @ 24v. *for $300
2. You bought a new 24v 25ah Lithium battery. *for $560
3. You bought a front DD 1000w kit. That rating was likely at 48v. Do you have a link to the source? *for $?

Some reality, that hub motor is unlikely to add anything towards speed at 24v and your battery likely won't be able to supply the current necessary for dual systems. It would be useful if you had a link to the battery source.
The best route for you to have gotten more speed would be to have bought a 36v battery. I seem to recall guys "hotrodding" their BMC's to 36v back in the day. The stock controller should be able to handle it.

So what do you do? It's a tough one.
Trying to recoup your money spent on the battery and hub is going to be tough.
We would have to investigate your controller a lil before spending the money, but buying a 36v battery for the stock system would give you approx what 33% more speed.
It should be easy enough to find a 36v battery to fit that case and youll still look stock, but flying in comparison.
Guess a lot of what you do depends on your budget.
Still haven't considered suspension. More $ there. Id investigate a new front fork, hopefully it's 1 1/8th, but leave the dual pogo rear.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

All the best.

Click to expand...

I paid about $300 in total for the one I bought, but I'm pretty sure this is the same thing, mine came without a battery as I was hoping to get a 20ah LiFePO4 battery but never ended up doing so unfortunately for financial reasons. Yeah it's 48v, I hooked up four SLAs and powered it... for a short period of time that is...

http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Motorize-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion/dp/8805001546/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462300320&sr=8-2&keywords=48v+front+hub+electric+bike+conversion+kit

I bought the bike without a battery box so it was just the bike with the wiring minus a power source, so I contacted a Rayos/Lashout dealer for a battery box, they were the ones who put the battery into the box and sealed it for me. I can take the battery off the bike and take pictures all around of it if it would be beneficial but there aren't any markings really other than the big 24v on the side. I'm having difficulty finding information regarding my battery's specific source and specifications, so I will keep searching and post my findings accordingly.

What would be a good way for me to find out more about the controller? I believe that it's built in somewhere which may pose a potential problem.

Also How can I check if it's a 1 1/8th?

It's tough because I would like to upgrade it, and open up the battery and put in another 12v to speed it up for sure!! Unfortunately I don't have the workspace and proper tools to complete the job adequately. I have SOME tools but not the kind that would give me the results I'm really looking for. Would a hobby shop be a good place to stop by to consult for battery and wiring concerns?

I have a very limited budget for the next 2 months, but after that it shouldn't be much of an issue to start saving up for the quality components.