Spoke tension 12g spokes

Hi all , i have a 1500 watt rear hub motor on a 26 inch wheel , after a month of sorting out loose and broken spokes , re tightening with the guitar pluck method to guess their tension i have invested in a park tool tension meter . My question is what should a 12g spoke on a 26 inch whel be tensioned too , thanks ..... Rik

I dunno a specific number but general consensus is that few, if any, bicycle rims can handle tension needed for 12ga spokes. Some guys use thread locking compound and run 'em on the loose end of the scale. Personally, I go for 13/14ga butted spokes and just tension to where it "feels/sounds" right.

Ykick said:

I dunno a specific number but general consensus is that few, if any, bicycle rims can handle tension needed for 12ga spokes. Some guys use thread locking compound and run 'em on the loose end of the scale. Personally, I go for 13/14ga butted spokes and just tension to where it "feels/sounds" right.

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Thanks for your answer , and yes i have read what your saying about 12 gr spokes on a 26 inch wheel . But ive got to work with what ive got , if anyones got any idea ide be gratefull to know . Have been intouch with Dillenger Australia the supplier , but there customer service is not the best shall we say ! .......... Thanks again .

My question is what should a 12g spoke on a 26 inch wheel be tensioned too

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You'll have to guess. Tight enough so the wheel is solid but not extra tight.
I once had the exact same problem as you.
After tightening using my own intuition, I used a teeny dab of JB Weld to secure each spoke from unscrewing and have not had a problem since.

invested in a park tool tension meter

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This can be used for checking/confirming that the tension is even throughout the spokes on each side.

Thanks again , i have been tightening them to my own intuition , but they have still become loose and broken , will use the grip stick stuff as ive read others have used that method with success ........ Yep had a park tool tension meter deliverd this morning , just need some tension guid lines to work from ..... The intuative method doesnt seem to be working for me but thanks !

Instead of full-on epoxy or thread locking compound, try dipping spokes into Linseed Oil as you lace. It provides lube as you tighten/true the spokes and then it dries and sets up into a decent soft glue/gunk which helps prevent loosening while also protecting threads from corrosion.

You can't get them too tight with most spoke wrenches. If the rim nipple holes are drilled at an angle towards matching spoke hole in hub, it makes it a lot easier to get the proper tension. In 20K miles using 12g spokes I've never had one pull through the rim. And once tightened, I've never had one come loose.

wesnewell said:

You can't get them too tight with most spoke wrenches.

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This is hogwash.

Bicycle rims' maximum tension specs are between 90 kgf and 140 kgf according to all the data I've seen. A lubricated brass nipple on a 14ga spoke is easy to turn up to 200 kgf with a normal Park spoke key before it rounds off. With a steel nipple on a 12ga spoke and a touch of grease on the threads, I bet I could get 400 kgf at least. And that's with a bicycle spoke key, not a motorcycle style spoke wrench.

Most rims with a published max tension spec have a limit of 100 kgf. If you use ≤100 kgf tension with 12ga spokes, they'll unscrew unless you glue the nipples on.

We accept that you like to do many things unsafely and/or contrary to specifications with your bike. Please don't advise others to do so.

if this is a double walled rim, you can get them as tight as you can reasonably turn a normal bike spoke wrench. if you're using a motorcycle one.. uhh, be careful. they have more leverage.
if its a single wall rim, you can warp it or even pull the spokes out trying to get enough tension.

The problem is that to get proper tension on 12ga spokes, you're going to be tighter than the rim may be able to take. so its as tight as you dare, watching the rim.

once you have them all set, try a tab of blue locktite on the ends through the rim. Although I am intrigued by this linseed oil idea posted above. if that works as described, it sounds even better.

A good stiff double walled rim won't buckle like a single walled rim when the spoke tension is too high. Instead, it will crack at the spoke holes at a later time.

Usually, the manufacturer specified tension limit is 100 kgf. If a wheel isn't reliable at 100 kgf max spoke tension, then something about it is wrong: rim is too light or not stiff enough, spokes too thick, too much lateral offset, or an inappropriate number of spokes.

I have a Dillenger 350 watt front hub and tensioned between 25-26 on a Park TM-1 tensiometer. The scale that comes with it doesn't list for a 12 or 13 gauge spoke. Also have a 1000watt hub and tensioned that to 28-30 on that gauge with no ill effects. I went with a higher tension because of the weight of the motor.

More importantly is even tension; to get even tones produced when plucking adjacent spokes on each side of the hub. Sometimes due to dishing or centering the hub, the pitch will differ slightly on each side of the hub. With experience you will know when the tension is right because the spokes have a ringing tone (lots of sustain) when plucking them. Guitarists can "get" this easily.

Tamaranchorider said:

I have a Dillenger 350 watt front hub and tensioned between 25-26 on a Park TM-1 tensiometer. The scale that comes with it doesn't list for a 12 or 13 gauge spoke. Also have a 1000watt hub and tensioned that to 28-30 on that gauge with no ill effects.

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The TM-1 Park tension conversion card is in terms of spoke diameter, not gauge.
A tension meter that couldn't be used with popular 12-13 ga would be sort of worthless...

• 10 Gauge = 3.05mm Diameter
  11 Gauge = 2.9mm Diameter
  12 Gauge = 2.6mm Diameter
  13 Gauge = 2.3mm Diameter
  14 Gauge = 2.0mm Diameter
  15 Gauge = 1.8mm Diameter

Thanks very much everyone , thats realy helpfull info ! .... Rik

Tamaranchorider said:

I have a Dillenger 350 watt front hub and tensioned between 25-26 on a Park TM-1 tensiometer. The scale that comes with it doesn't list for a 12 or 13 gauge spoke. Also have a 1000watt hub and tensioned that to 28-30 on that gauge with no ill effects. I went with a higher tension because of the weight of the motor.

More importantly is even tension; to get even tones produced when plucking adjacent spokes on each side of the hub. Sometimes due to dishing or centering the hub, the pitch will differ slightly on each side of the hub. With experience you will know when the tension is right because the spokes have a ringing tone (lots of sustain) when plucking them. Guitarists can "get" this easily.

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Very helpfull thanks !

teklektik said:

Tamaranchorider said:

I have a Dillenger 350 watt front hub and tensioned between 25-26 on a Park TM-1 tensiometer. The scale that comes with it doesn't list for a 12 or 13 gauge spoke. Also have a 1000watt hub and tensioned that to 28-30 on that gauge with no ill effects.

Click to expand...

The TM-1 Park tension conversion card is in terms of spoke diameter, not gauge.
A tension meter that couldn't be used with popular 12-13 ga would be sort of worthless...

• 10 Gauge = 3.05mm Diameter
  11 Gauge = 2.9mm Diameter
  12 Gauge = 2.6mm Diameter
  13 Gauge = 2.3mm Diameter
  14 Gauge = 2.0mm Diameter
  15 Gauge = 1.8mm Diameter

Click to expand...

teklektik said:

Tamaranchorider said:

I have a Dillenger 350 watt front hub and tensioned between 25-26 on a Park TM-1 tensiometer. The scale that comes with it doesn't list for a 12 or 13 gauge spoke. Also have a 1000watt hub and tensioned that to 28-30 on that gauge with no ill effects.

Click to expand...

The TM-1 Park tension conversion card is in terms of spoke diameter, not gauge.
A tension meter that couldn't be used with popular 12-13 ga would be sort of worthless...

• 10 Gauge = 3.05mm Diameter
  11 Gauge = 2.9mm Diameter
  12 Gauge = 2.6mm Diameter
  13 Gauge = 2.3mm Diameter
  14 Gauge = 2.0mm Diameter
  15 Gauge = 1.8mm Diameter

Click to expand...

Very helpfull thanks !

[Quote/]
The TM-1 Park tension conversion card is in terms of spoke diameter, not gauge.
A tension meter that couldn't be used with popular 12-13 ga would be sort of worthless...

• 10 Gauge = 3.05mm Diameter
  11 Gauge = 2.9mm Diameter
  12 Gauge = 2.6mm Diameter
  13 Gauge = 2.3mm Diameter
  14 Gauge = 2.0mm Diameter
  15 Gauge = 1.8mm Diameter

[/quote]

Wow, thanks teklektik I've been looking for that. I guess I can go up a bit more in tension. Haven't broken any spokes yet (knock on wood)...

A tension meter that couldn't be used with popular 12-13 ga would be sort of worthless...

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It would be far more accurate to say that 12ga spokes are worthless, for bicycle components anyway. Popularity means nothing if it's irretrievably poor engineering to begin with.

Both the Park gauge at work and my own DT gauge have tables for 2.3mm/13ga spokes.

So why do bicycle rim manufacturers make rims for 12g spokes? Why do they sell wheel sets with 12g spokes? Why does every hub motor manufacturer drill there hub motors for 12g or larger spokes? I guess they're all just stupid. Couldn't have anything to do with the amount of stress hub motors place on spokes. There's logic, and then there's you.

Bicycle parts with 12ga spokes exist for two reasons:

1) It allows spokes to be made out of garbage, which is cheaper, and

2) there are plenty of ill-informed people who think, "duh, bigger spoke better" and will even pay extra for fat spokes made out of garbage.

We should know by now that the Chinese are in business not to do engineering, but to provide the things that people ask for without regard to quality.

Offensive post deleted.

wesnewell said:

So why do bicycle rim manufacturers make rims for 12g spokes? Why do they sell wheel sets with 12g spokes? Why does every hub motor manufacturer drill there hub motors for 12g or larger spokes? I guess they're all just stupid. Couldn't have anything to do with the amount of stress hub motors place on spokes. There's logic, and then there's you.

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Chalo works with building bikewheels, and he diagnosed liveforphysics problem with breaking wheels under high power.
I am very confident in believing what he says on this topic. And so far, it has been completely accurate. It also makes perfect sense. What doesnt make sense is 12g spokes in bicycle rims.

Sure a 12g spoke wheel will be stronger, and more reliable, IF you have a rim to match and spokes of comparable quality to good bikespokes.
Otherwise you will most likely end up with the spokes coming loose, or breaking the rim.

I was very happy when I got 12g spokes in my leafbike wheel last year. (I thought thicker=stronger=better) now after 4000kms I had to make a major overhaul and retight everything cause it had come loose. So now with more insight, I wish I did spoke it myself with thinner spokes at approperiate tension.

I've had some disagreements with Chalo in the past, but with respect to practical bicycle and wheel knowledge, he knows what he's talking about.

Some here may have anecdotal evidence that their 12 ga spokes work well for them, and that's good for them. But just because something done, and happens to work, doesn't mean it is ideal. Duct taping packs to your frame works for some, but again, it's not ideal.

Here's my shot at anecdote: My very first ebike wheel was made by e-bikekit.com and it was built with 12Ga spokes. Firstly, it sucked. It constantly popped spokes with only a 350W tiny geared hub. The second wheel was a replacement from e-bikekit.com for the first crap wheel. It was also built with 12 Ga spokes. This one worked much better, but still suffered from broken spokes and only fleeting true. And that was the work of a professional wheel builder with 'years of experience'. I'm betting that the use of 12 Ga spokes was not the wheel builder's choice but rather the company owner's.

Every wheel that I have built since, has had 14 Ga OR 14/15 Ga stainless spokes. I've broken less spokes in the last 3 years with 14 Ga spokes than compared to the first 3 months with 12 Ga spokes. And the bike that I have now goes literally twice as fast and can output 10X peak power of that first motor. I should also add that my first bike was a commuter than never left the ground and my current bike is a Full suspension bike that I regularly take off curbs and other drops. The hubs are also substantially heavier, requiring more strength to maintain. 12 Ga spokes will never touch my bike unless I'm working with a moped rim that can handle the tensions required. I would also make sure to buy Sapim Stainless to keep the high quality steel aspects.

Chalo said:

Bicycle parts with 12ga spokes exist for two reasons:

1) It allows spokes to be made out of garbage, which is cheaper, and

2) there are plenty of ill-informed people who think, "duh, bigger spoke better" and will even pay extra for fat spokes made out of garbage.

We should know by now that the Chinese are in business not to do engineering, but to provide the things that people ask for without regard to quality.

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1) The size of the spoke had nothing to do with the quality of materials used to make it. Garbage spokes com in all sizes.
2) A larger spoke made from the same material will be stronger. That's simple logic.

One should always use a spoke diameter that the hub motor spoke hole was designed for. For most DD hub motors that's 12g. If you want to use a rim drilled for 14G spokes, use 12/14g butted spokes. Or do like I do and drill the nipple hole at an angle so it' makes tensioning the spoke easier.

wesnewell said:

A larger spoke made from the same material will be stronger. That's simple logic.

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While that's true, the strength of a wire wheel is in its rim, not its spokes. Making the spoke thicker doesn't enhance wheel strength at all, but it introduces reliability issues.

One should always use a spoke diameter that the hub motor spoke hole was designed for.

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Because the rim is the critical ingredient for the strength of the wheel, it's best to use the spoke size for which the rim was designed. For bicycle rims, that's almost always 14ga. A few of them are drilled with larger holes, but those are the same extrusions that were manufactured with 14ga spokes in mind. It's always possible to use spoke washers to accommodate hubs that have been drilled with too-large holes

You can increase the effective capacity of a given rim by using thinner spokes, but you decrease its capacity by using thicker spokes. A tightly laced wheel seems rigid and unmoving, but to carry weight, it must be able to flex in proportion to the applied weight. Thin spokes can maintain tension and resist unscrewing as this happens; thick spokes can't.

Chalo said:

Because the rim is the critical ingredient for the strength of the wheel, it's best to use the spoke size for which the rim was designed. For bicycle rims, that's almost always 14ga. A few of them are drilled with larger holes, but those are the same extrusions that were manufactured with 14ga spokes in mind. It's always possible to use spoke washers to accommodate hubs that have been drilled with too-large holes

You can increase the effective capacity of a given rim by using thinner spokes, but you decrease its capacity by using thicker spokes. A tightly laced wheel seems rigid and unmoving, but to carry weight, it must be able to flex in proportion to the applied weight. Thin spokes can maintain tension and resist unscrewing as this happens; thick spokes can't.

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I disagree with everything you say. Ever heard of the knife affect. That's what happens when you use a small diameter SS spoke in a larger hole made of cast iron. Over time, the smaller spoke will elongate the softer metal of the hub just like a knife cuts through butter. A 2mm ss spoke in a 3mm cast iron hole is just not a good idea. just junk science.

As for the spoke stretching. That's just more junk science. You can tension the spoke, but you aren't going to stretch it no more than you would by applying 1000 lbs of pressure on a ss rod will a tensile strength of 100,000 lbs. if the spoke actually stretched, they would all come loose every so often, and you would have to keep tightening them until you ran out of thread and the spoke punched through the tube. Stretching spokes is just another myth propagated over time. The tire is the only thing in the wheel that should flex. That's what it is there for.

Let's get another thing straight. Hub motors put many times the stress on spokes than a regular pedal rider. And many cheap kits come with garbage spokes that are not tensioned properly, Because of this, they often break. If one takes the time to tension them properly, even the garbage ones will last a while. I put several thousand miles on one that I tensioned after installing it before it broke one spoke. Good quality spokes will never break in a regular hub. Cheap unproperly tensioned ones will soon break in a hub motor.