MAC 10T + Phaserunner

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Triketech   1 kW

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MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Nov 06 2016 11:24am

There is a subject on the Phaserunner but it seems to have reached "saturation".

Looking for insight on connecting a Phaserunner to a MAC10T. If you've done it, please speak up.

Currently driven via a 12 FET Infinity, max current 30A. Over about 10A the audible levels begin to climb. Have a hunch the audible noise may reduce a bit with the Phaserunner.

Would be nice to run sensorless, but not required. I will connect try both ways, but will likely leave the senors connected avoids the passive startup.

About 2400Hz max commutation speed.

Equipped with Thun and CA3.

I have the ASI appliance BacDOOR, and have read the manual. Once I finish the new brackets and cables I'll be giving it a trial.

At one time I measured the resistance and inductance of the MAC 10T, but can't find my notes. If you know them (cell man you watching?).

Thanks in advance.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by teklektik » Nov 06 2016 1:58pm

I have same config = Mac10T, 14s NMC, CA3, Thun.
I only have a preliminary config in the PR to get it going - CA is barely set up - Thun not connected.

So - not to much to set really:
  • Set CA ThrO->MinOut = 1V to start so the low setting of controller input won't make the bike take off on power up - or use a stand.
  • Set up your CA V3 for PassThru.
  • Set up throttle on the PRU Advanced tab.
  • Set up the indicated PRU parameters below.
  • Autotune!
Here's my present settings. No need to screw around with trying to minimize regen settings (since they shouldn't be in play with the MAC anyway) - the PR is a little fussy about them so in my final attempts, I just left them alone (Well - I didn't originally - which caused problems...) For BMC, Mac, eZee motors the big magic is in the BW settings in the lower left. Those actually came from Robbie @Grin (Thanks!). I had come up with alternate working values but his are more conservative and work nicely.

This should get a workable baseline tune PDQ.
Mac10T_initialTune_PRU.png
(click to enlarge)
Generally a good idea to stay away configuring things with with Bacdoor - shouldn't be necessary. Don't mix PR Utility and Bacdoor XML files. They only appear to be 'sort of' compatible. The PRU parameter addresses are not guaranteed to be the same as those in Bacdoor. The PRU also has a flock of 'derived' parameters so when you change things like system voltage, all sorts of things will change proportionately. This is good because it sets up regen, etc. just fine, but it can tweak things around if you adjust voltage, etc after autotuning.

I did use the 'Edit Parameters' option to boost the 'Rated Motor Power' from 2000W to 3000W during my initial tuning attempts, but this should not really be necessary for a civilly powered Mac...

Anyhow - as I said, this is a preliminary tune and things can be tweaked and tidied up, but it works pretty well.
No promises, but this should get you rolling...
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Triketech   1 kW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Nov 06 2016 11:43pm

Sweeet. Or should I say SUITE?

I wasn't aware of the new app.

How is Autotune initiated?

And thanks a ton!

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Nov 14 2016 11:35am

Having bought the Phaserunner a while back I wasn't aware that a new interface was developed. Very good.

This controller seems a LOT like the TI DRV8312 with the F28069M Piccolo.

What processor is used?

Triketech   1 kW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Nov 16 2016 11:11pm

Strange intermittent issue with the Phaserunner.

Powered up fine, ran through Autotune fine (Sensor start sensorless run). Saved settings.

Disconnected and rode about 2000 feet. Throttle OK, CA/Thun OK, seemed a little weak only pulling 1200 watts but haven't tweaked the CA yet.

Came back to look a few things over and key-on - throttle twisted, no amps to motor.

Re-connecting to PR Suite gives a Fault 7 - POST static gating test. LED is blinking 5, 6.

Reset fault. Re-run Autotune. In Step 1 Motor Winding Static test it returns with Motor Not Detected.

Motor connectors read about 60mΩ on the PR side wires.

Wires haven't been stressed and through the epoxy look fine.

Re-running autotune several times does occasionally work, about 1 in 5 cold start attempts. As long as I don't shut it off its fine. But there will come a day I need to charge the battery and.....

It does run a little more quietly. Torque mode gives much more stable response with the Thun.

A bit perplexed, and disappointed.

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Storapa   100 W

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Storapa » Nov 28 2016 9:23am

Hi Gents,

I'm running a Mac 8T, Thun BB and the CA V3 with an Infineon controller. My intention is to swap to a Phaserunner shortly, hence the interest in this thread.

Teklektic, are you using a 12V DC-DC converter as you are running at 14s?

My current pack is 12s as I thought that this was the limit when using the Thun / CA V3.
Daily machine. - Giant Toughroad, Mac 8T, Thun torque sensor, Phase Runner, CA V3
Scratch built machine - Crystalyte HS 3540, 12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon controller, CA V3, 74v - 20Ah Lipo battery pack. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=75457

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by teklektik » Nov 28 2016 11:34am

The Thun is not presently wired - just installed. (Too many other things filling my time...)

I do have a 12V converter and will use it for the Thun as well if necessary, however, I plan to simply measure the Thun + other CA accessory current before making the decision. Justin indicates that the Thun draw may be somewhat less than as stated in the Thun doc (20ma) making the table in the Guide too conservative (we meant to revisit that table before the formal 3.0 firmware release but didn't quite get to it - for the 3.1 release for sure). Measurement is the best strategy since actual values for throttle, 3-position switch, etc can vary by model or implementation.
  • FWIW: I'm using this converter (available from EM3EV or Lyen) to power LED tail/brake lights so have lots of capacity left over for the Thun. It's very tiny and easy to squirrel away inconspicuously.
Also, the equation and tables in the Guide are based on a power limit of 1500mW for the CA regulators, but this is an estimate that Grin decided was 'safe' for dumping the heat from the CA case in adverse temperatures. If you are on the edge with your current inventory, you can push the limit a bit if you're not riding in the Mojave... just be aware that the higher the voltage, the higher the heat penalty per ma of extra current.
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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Nov 29 2016 12:22am

Grin shipped a replacement along with some free being. Nice.

May take a few weeks before I get time.

FWIW the Mojave was in the 50's as we drove through. Just rained, rather green.

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Storapa   100 W

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Storapa » Nov 29 2016 5:19am

Hi Teklektik,

Thanks for the reply.

Living in the UK we have a fairly low ambient temperature. We also benefit from water cooling on a regular basis. I need to measure the current draw from the Thun. I'm not running a throttle, 3 speed switch or any accessories. I will buy a small converter to be on the safe side thought and it would be good to run my lights from it at some point.
Daily machine. - Giant Toughroad, Mac 8T, Thun torque sensor, Phase Runner, CA V3
Scratch built machine - Crystalyte HS 3540, 12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon controller, CA V3, 74v - 20Ah Lipo battery pack. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=75457

Triketech   1 kW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Dec 11 2016 11:01am

Update1.

Robbie @ Grin shipped a new Phaserunner and threw in plenty of free bling. Customer service doesn't get any better than that.

Ordered a new MAC 10T Cassette. Hong Kong to my doorstep in 56 hours. Paul must have told Moon to add a MAC Sensor Board, as one was inside. Also added some DC-DC converters.

16 hours so far re-mounting & re-wiring stuff. On a long wheelbase tadpole cables are either too long or too short, and these old eyes aren't fond of crimping JST connectors. I need to break down & buy a magnifier.

Should wrap up (literally, the next step is grooming cables) today.

Update 2

Powered up perfectly. Used the basic settings from above except for dropping current to 30/80A respectively.

Short ride went very good. Needs a little tuning.

On low speeds up hills there is a whine up to about 5MPH. Its set to Hall Start but I may tweak the feedback and torque ramping to see what the effects are.

Rotor decel has a few whimpers as well so I'll maybe play with that a bit.

Most of all get some time on it and understand what's going on.

Will get some pictures etc. later.

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Dec 18 2016 3:30pm

Just finished adding a DC-DC converter for lights.

Noting little characteristics on startup and during run that I should be refine tuning for. Nothing right away I need more pedal time.

For example, off the line it stumbles under full throttle. It's set to Hall start and reported 37° retard during Autotune. I can see where some of the parameters may be able to tune that a little better. Need to better understand ramp settings and behaviors too.

Amazed by the near silence at "human power" levels. Torque driven method is very proportional but has a little lag. CA needs an update as well, maybe cut sampling back. Nice thing is its all tunable.

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 20 2016 11:05pm

I think that a MAC set up with a 10-50T 11 speed would be a very interesting combination.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/21/fi ... -to-10-50/

What gearing range do you currently have? I'm thinking of using a similar setup for my project and I need to assure that I can get the gearing range I'm looking for(need at least 370% range).

The lag may be a blessing in disguise. Were the inrush of torque too sudden, I would be worried that the internal gears/clutch could become damaged.
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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Dec 21 2016 12:53am

3x10
22/32/44 Chain ring
36-11 Cassette
Trigger shifter, I shift a lot.
Torque PAS is even better with the Phaserunner

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Dec 26 2016 12:05pm

The Toecutter wrote:
The lag may be a blessing in disguise. Were the inrush of torque too sudden, I would be worried that the internal gears/clutch could become damaged.
I had a MAC 12T with 12 FET Infineon before the 10T. At 30A peak it would turn the tire a complete revolution on the epoxy garage floor with a snap of the throttle. You could also hear the initial rotor slips which in a geared motor gives the illusion of gears skipping. A nice sound in the way that keeps one from repeating that often.

FWIW, the first 500 miles was at 40A max. Got a chance to explore the thermal limits while keeping all the smoke in its place. This motor is very stout. The earlier problem took out the halls, since repaired.

At 1000 miles, the gears and clutch look very good, although there is an epicyclic gear harmonic, as though the ring gear has lost concentricity. Not surprising considering the high lateral loads I put on the hub drifting my trike......

I don't mind a start-up lag, its the while riding response I'll look to improve. Its not bad, I suspect its more evident due to the Torque Only mode. Most systems use a combo Torque & Speed in the driver algorithm. FOC is Torque Only.

Any way about it, this damn thing really spoiled me. FOC is absolutely the way to go. Trapezoidal and Sine wave drivers are now obsolete IMO.

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by The Toecutter » Jan 05 2017 8:54pm

What is the acceleration like with your setup? Any videos?

How smooth is the feedback while pedaling it? If you have to stop pedaling for some reason and slow down, and then start up again going all out with as much force as you can, is this system responsive enough to give immediate assisted acceleration? How is its behavior before/while/immediately after the rider changes gears? It would annoy me greatly if a gear change cost me some acceleration due to an unresponsive system.

I'm also curious with regard to the long-term reliability of that controller. It's a little pricey, but is still nothing compared to what I've spent on a Soliton 1 for a much heavier vehicle. I just want for my motor/clutch/gears/controller to at least last the life of the frame.

This is an interesting configuration and I may just have to copy it for my application. If it lasted 500 miles at 40A, I think tuning it down to 35A should suit it well. I won't be drifting it, as its application will primarily be cruising long distances at 30-35 mph at < 500W electrical input, but I do intend to frequently accelerate as hard as the system allows. I want to set whatever limit will allow me to repeatedly accelerate as hard as the motor will allow given said limitations without damaging anything. I'm looking to keep my motor/clutch/gear maintenance costs below $0.01/mile. 60V/35A should give car-like acceleration from 0-20 mph.
Custom electric velomobile, 1500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

Triketech   1 kW

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by Triketech » Jan 08 2017 11:20am

The original 12T system (which at the time I thought was a 10T) article is here. I posted a short video of an extreme hillclimb at the bottom of the article. That was also with the Infineon from Cellman.

I don't have enough time on the new 10T/Phaserunner for a comprehensive article.

Long term reliability, no empirical stats out there, well lets just call this low volume Pre-Production grade of manufacture. My first one failed out of the box, whether that was a dead unit that was never tested post assembly, or early software conflict, or infant mortality, doesn't matter. I was prepared knowing this was still more or less "prototype" at the time I ordered. Apparently so did Grin as they replaced the unit without even being asked to. Those guys are great!

Bottom line on reliability IMO, is I would expect a failure rate (from internal defects) of about 30% higher than the typical industry average, and a total SWAG of about 10,000 HR MTBF. Not bad.

The difference between 12T and 10T in terms of torque-from-zero gives about 20% more boost off the line to the 12T. But the Phaserunner is also slower off the launch than the Infineon was, while both are set to the same peak amps. There is room for improvement through tuning the Phaserunner, although I haven't done much there yet.

Which kind of brings me to a "segway"; I've been working on a seperate project developing a precision positioning cogless and sensorless BLDC, using a TI DRV83xx series. The similarity is uncanny. I keep asking Robbie which driver the Phaserunner uses....also why I haven't had much time for the trike lately....

Back to the Phaserunner. Mine is set to use Hall signals to start propulsion and switch to sensorless after tunable time and or speed variables are met. Quick sensorless review; as two phases are powered the relative position can be derived via measurements on the unpowered phase. TI pulled off some magic on those measurements that haven't yet been rivaled. The trouble is those measurements also come at the expense of processing and lower level code. Bottom line is the Phaserunner will be a little lazier off the line than the Infineon PWM "chopper". But not much. In any event if you're looking for off the line snap, that's best handled by a sensored trap wave driver, with hall offset tuned to the motor. Explosive launch.

It takes about 1/2 a second before the Phaserunner ramps on mine; that can be reduced via software, but I haven't played much with it yet. Past that it's right on par with the Infineon regarding ramp & response. I sort of prefer that delay with a geared motor.

I have not played with Field Weakening on the Phaserunner, but did on my other project. I found that beyond about 8% "weakening speed" the efficiency dropped like a rock. Not real practical for continuous operation, but great for certain overspeed needs.

Gear changes are not affected by motor power as it is a hubmotor. The Thun bottom bracket measures pedal power send that to the CA3, the CA3 controls the throttle to the Phaserunner. Very little delay in the way that's setup, so the pedals work perfectly as a throttle. Way, way, way, better than any of the hubmotors with internal torque sensors. That includes Bionx, Falco, and Go-Swiss. Also have a twist throttle.

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Re: MAC 10T + Phaserunner

Post by dean74 » Dec 29 2019 8:01pm

@ teklektic - did you need to experiment with the phase and hall wiring to get the autotune to run, or just connect colour to colour?

I've setup a phaserunner on my personal build, but that system was supplied by ebikes.ca so the plugs matched. wondering how i'd go trying to run autotune if the hall/phase wiring doesnt match.

appreciate any info!

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