Xiongda Wheel Build

Ozzzz

100 W
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
183
Hi Bikers!,

I've got around to trying my first wheel build. The Xiongda Hub motor into a 27.5" / 40mm rim. Sapim 2.3 - 2.0 mm spokes.

spoke xiongda.png

This is the spoke calculator (Grin) supplied by Bonnie (Xiongda). Iv'e started (cautiously) but I'm finding that trying to get all the elbows inboard seems to put a helluva stress on the spokes at the first cross/ near the flange. The stock wheel is also 2 cross but alternating one in/one out. I tried this even though the spokes arent cut for it just to see, but the flange seems to bow out (thicker on the outside) especially on the drive side so as to make the spoke elbow not wide enough...

So 2x cross, all elbows in, is that usually done? Iv'e been searching for others pics and can't find. Anyone with Xiongda Hub done 2x lacing? Any tips much appreciated.
 
I did mine in a 26" wheel with a conventional 2-cross pattern. There's quite a kink where the spokes cross each other, but it's lasted 4000 miles without any problems. I didn't use a big offset. Instead, I used spacers on the axle to get the rim central. My previous build was similar, except that I built the full offset and didn't use spacers. That was OK for 1000 miles until I sold that bike.

I'm not sure that the diagram means that you install all the spokes inboard of the flanges. That doesn't make sense. I alternated mine, but if anything they should be outboard on the gears side and inboard on the brake side to help with the offset.
 
Thanks d8veh,

From what I can see from the ebikesca/grin site 'in' does mean all elbows inside but that doesn't seem ideal to me either.
Iv'e got three to do so i'm going to play around a bit with the first, see where the offset looks like compared to the bend needed in the spokes.
 
As per the calculator (2 cross overs, all elbows inside the flange) :

XD WHEEL BUILD1.JPG IMG_0183.JPG

The only way I could see to do it (this way) was to put all the second set of (18) push spokes in at the same time before putting any through the rim holes..
I would prefer to get the drive side spoke heads inside as theres a lot of correction needed to get alignment, they are all done up to the end of the threads on the spokes but a long way needed to pull the rim over towards the centre.. tbh though I'm not sure how you get the spoke heads inside on this hub without countersinking the inside flange holes as all the outside flange holes are countersunk :?
 
If you can put the spoke heads inside the flange, it'd take up the slack and widen teh base of the triangulation, theoretically making a stiffer wheel in side loads, if that matters.

The most likely reason for them not countersinking the inside hole sides is it's not as easy to do as the outside ones. But it is possible, either by hand with the appropriate tool (or the wrong one used in a different way than it's supposed to be ;) ), or with a drill (press is easier).
 
When you offset the rim, there's a big difference in the spoke tension between the two sides. That difference goes up exponentially with the amount of offset, so you need to keep the offset as small as you can. That means that you need the nipples on the inside of the flange on the gears side and on the outside on the brake side. That will have the same effect as reducing the offset by about 6mm. There's no problem with nipples on the inside. I've done 5000 miles with alternate inside/outside spokes.
 
Ok, thanks. Makes sense. Widening the flange base, adding strength and taking up the 6mm (which is the offset Xiongda list) in the lacing rather than tensioning that far makes sense.

I think i'd prefer to alternate the spokes 1 in 1 out. I should ask ask perhaps the good folks at Xiongda left the default settings in the Grin calculator (both elbows inside the flange)

Something doesn't look right with them all on one side, one set of spokes sits flush on the flange but the outer set laced over the top and immediately needing to cross over the adjacent spoke means that that half of the spokes (on one side) don't sit on the flange (with a tight bend needed almost straight away. I'm guessing alternating them would make a tight crossover on the second (outer) crossover point.

The only concern alternating one in one out is that the offset wont be taken up :?

I might lace up the second motor (assuming the spokes are long enough for this minor change) and compare. Tedious needing to pull them all out again but learning, and its oddly satisfying looking at the laced wheel :) . For all the videos and instructions online there's some gaps, ta.
 
Received an image from Xiongda:



The spoke calc. should have read 1 in 1 out
Wont help in reducing the offset but a better design and wider base.
And my skills increase each time :)
 
That's how i did mine. I just thought that I'd mention that I use 14g spokes for all my motor-wheels now. They seem to give less problems, they keep their tension better and they're a bit lighter, which always helps.
 
Thanks for your tips d8veh, I think I have read all your stuff amongst the many posts here and elsewhere i've read and re-read on these motors. I appreciate all your efforts they have cleared up the puzzle for this newb.

I did find a build report from a UK forum where the guy seemed to thing that either 12g or the use of washers was needed given the 3mm flange holes.
I don't really see how using washers is necessary as the heads are tapered (so just sit a bit deeper in the holes). The thinner spokes seem to sit flat across the flange (tight to turn them when they go in).

In it's latest iteration I now have the spokes alternating and laced against each other on the second cross. I'm using 2/2.3mm butted spokes but I think they'll be ok.. not that I wasn't deflated reading the post saying the 12g were necessary (Bonnie also says not to use anything but 12g).
 
2/2.3mm butted spokes would be perfect IMHO. I think the idea of using 12g spokes is misplaced. For some reason, 13g spokes often break, so they think you should use stronger ones, but they're not engineers. I use 14g on all my motor wheels now and wouldn't use anything else even for much higher power motors. I think that the elasticity of the spokes is a very important characteristic.
 
I just finished building a wheel. I didn't know what size spokes I'd need so I told Bonnie my rim size and she added spokes to my order. Can't go wrong with $5 for 40 spokes/nipples. They are the thickest spokes I've ever used, I had to drill out the existing holes in my rim to accommodate the fat nipples but otherwise the spoke length supplied was perfect.

Does anyone else wonder if they have an army of Bonnie's at Xiongda. I emailed back and forth with her a pile of times. It seems everyone raves about her product support and rightfully so. I've got to assume we're only a small fraction of her sales so when would she sleep?

Bonnie, if you're reading this, you rock.
 
Thicker spokes are not usually the answer to a better wheel build, unless you're using moped or motorcycle rims that are built for those.

Thinner spokes (13g or smaller) make a better bicycle-rim based wheel, because they can be properly tensioned without overstressing the rim (which can cause cracks around the nipple holes, which then allow the spokes to loosen, which can either cause the spokes to then break from flexing, or if you then retighten the spokes, increases the rim cracking, which begins the cycle again).

For my MXUS 3k wheel on SB Cruiser, I simply drilled new smaller holes between the existing too-large holes on the spoke flanges of the MXUS hubmotor, so I could use 13-14 butted spokes.

That size spokes have worked fine for my very heavy cargo trike even with the small 20" radially-laced wheels--even though I reused the spokes and rim from a previous different motor on the same left wheel of the trike. (the same size are also used on the X5304 wheel on the right side, and even though i recently broke the axle of the motor hitting a pothole, neither the rim nor the spokes are damaged).
 
I always use elbows outside the flange on hub motor builds. It's the only way to get the effective flange width comparable to a real bike hub. If the flanges are narrowly spaced, like less than 50mm, I also lace the spokes to the opposite side of the rim-- if the rim holes aren't tilted.

14ga spokes are good, but 14-15ga double butted spokes are better. Thicker is worse, from a reliability standpoint. Use spoke washers if necessary to prevent heads pulling through the flange.
 
Ive been riding mine for a few days. I like it! It's a bit lame after a more powerful motor but gets the job done, you think it's too much for this mtr but I did a long (2klm) steep hill the morn and it just keeps cranking, with a no-sweat bit of pedal help.. nothing getting more than warm so far. I'll add the build in a topic maybe.

For the wheel build, i needed to reorder the spokes, it wasn't Bonnies calc, just felt better adding a few mm (to fill the nipple thread) and using nipple washers. Maybe for a radial lacing or one cross but the lighter Sapims worked well for 2 crosses, alternating in/out. 24/21 on the Park tensionmeter with one drive side nut removed (27.5" single speed).
 
BCBeaver said:
I just finished building a wheel. I didn't know what size spokes I'd need so I told Bonnie my rim size and she added spokes to my order. Can't go wrong with $5 for 40 spokes/nipples. They are the thickest spokes I've ever used, I had to drill out the existing holes in my rim to accommodate the fat nipples but otherwise the spoke length supplied was perfect.

Does anyone else wonder if they have an army of Bonnie's at Xiongda. I emailed back and forth with her a pile of times. It seems everyone raves about her product support and rightfully so. I've got to assume we're only a small fraction of her sales so when would she sleep?

Bonnie, if you're reading this, you rock.
Bonnie's name is Bonnie Xiong, except Bonnie is an assumed English name. I would therefore assume that Xiongda is a family buisness, and she is the Owner's daughter or wife. I met her in Shanghai at the bike show a couple of years ago, where it was refreshing to find someone on a stand that actually knew about their product.
 
She's done a great job with customer service. It's great that Xiongda help to at least try to answer all questions. She says herself that they aren't (biking) 'experts', but at least the contribution, it gives an opinion and starting point.


Has anyone tried this motor setup single speed? (or have any opinion).

At 32/18t I'm finding (even steep) hills pretty easy but speed seems to be maxed out at around 20klm/h which is too slow to take advantage of pedal assist at higher speeds. I'm new to gearing calculators. The easy fix seems to be to just try a smaller freewheel, 16T? but as far as i can tell this only gives something like 2mph / 3.2klm/h increase at the top end (if i'm calculating right)

It would really be ideal, though, to hit that 25klm/h fairly precisely, to make full use of the assist, without loosing too much on the hills.. :?

I know leg strength and weight etc come into play but i'm hoping for a combo anyone can manage, other than me (with dodgy knees but strong legs).
 
Ozzzz said:
Received an image from Xiongda:

buiding+rim.jpg

The spoke calc. should have read 1 in 1 out
Wont help in reducing the offset but a better design and wider base.
And my skills increase each time :)
Just finished lacing Xiongda motor for my son's trike.
The 1 cross on the photos is not marked correctly.
Cross 1 is closer to the motor's edge.
By the way, it was pleasure dealing with Bonnie.
 
Thanks for the advice. Iv'e now built three into 27.5" rims. I ended up using a park tool tensionmeter and for the last just tensioned the drive side, off side then the two again and was done. Typically over-thunk on my part.

ps. Yes, Bonnie is a pleasure to deal with.
 
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