Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

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Philaphlous
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Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Jun 23, 2017 12:29 pm

As the title says guys. I have the generic 48v 1000w leaf hub motor and a 12fet controller. This will be my first time riding the bike this weekend and I wanted to learn about regenerative braking... I noticed when I hand spun the motor with nothing else hooked up the two phase wires touching each other started arcing...so I know the spinning force of the motor produces potential energy to be harvested and put back into the battery...now for my lack of knowledge... I have a normal throttle control with no such lcd screen or anything like that. I'm using a power meter to measure my power output and voltage/amps... With that said, will this "standard" setup have regenerative braking? If so, will I see it right away from my power meter? And, is there any way I can make the charging "light" or "heavy" such as the regen braking on a Tesla...

Thanks guys!

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by fechter » Jun 23, 2017 12:51 pm

It will be a function of your controller. It may be already enabled. You need to at least have brake switches connected. With some models, you need to use a programming cable and software to enable or change the settings.

What model of controller is it?
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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by 999zip999 » Jun 23, 2017 1:15 pm

You must have torque arms or the motor will spin in your drop out and tear your wire to shredz. It will give 6% regen only. And more attention to your axle nuts is needed. Remember it more for braking then adding anything back to your battery. Best to activate through the cut off on your ebrake handles.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by HomeScape » Jun 23, 2017 5:13 pm

Regenerative braking is diffrent for each controller.

I've got 2 cables comming out, when i connect them and brake, it uses regenerative braking. When i disconnect, it only cuts the power.

These wires have to be installed by your seller, or else you'd have to add them yourself. This however can be quite shady.


Don't quote me on this but i believe that the chip on your controller has 1 pin, that if connected to ground, enables regnerative braking.


Goodluck!

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Jun 23, 2017 9:14 pm

Not sure the brand of the controller. It came with one of the 1000w eBay kits. I've seen the same controller around here on es. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if it works or not...manually spinning the wheel might not be enough to test it but pedaling with no power would!

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 06, 2018 9:01 am

I know this is an old thread but Im still stuck on this...I still haven't been able to find great info on enabling regen.... I have a few thoughts. There's 2 white wires that come out of the controller when connected reverse the motor slowly and reverse even more when I apply throttle. In addition. I need to check the cutoff on my brakes and see if I have any voltage across any of the lines coming out of the controller. Maybe I can add the reverse white wire to the brake cutoff and it'll act as reversing with no power applied and will give me regen????? Lol. I have no clue but what I do know is I'll have to connect some wires to the charge port of the battery for it to work... I haven't found a relatively cheap controller that can do 1000w w/regen without an lcd display on eBay yet...

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Chalo » Feb 06, 2018 12:15 pm

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 9:01 am
There's 2 white wires that come out of the controller when connected reverse the motor slowly and reverse even more when I apply throttle.
Those wires are most likely "self learning mode" for configuring the Hall sensors and for commanding a reversal of default direction. It's best not to mess with them if your controller and motor are behaving correctly.

If your controller isn't configured for regenerative braking, you'll need another controller to get that feature.
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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm

How about a pic of the controller and wires ? Is there another set of single wires that can connect to each other ? Not all controllers are set up with wires for Regen even though you may be able to solder wires onto the pads inside the controller to add regen


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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 07, 2018 2:19 pm

So I've finally found some blog posts of different controllers and how to enable regen. Looking at my pics of my controller it looks like I need to jump the bk with ground to enable regen. Ebs is supposed to control the strength but haven't found how to get that to work? Looking at the pics of the underside of my controller it has a BL and BH so I'm assuming under the thermal pads there's a BK somewhere. So I'll take a look at that when I get a chance to take a part my controller... However this poses a new question...how does the regen get back into the battery? I'm assuming the bms on my bike won't allow reverse flow of electricity or will it? Are there separate regen wires I need to solder on?

So the issue is apparently a bms will not allow reverse current? Not sure if that is the case or not...and if it is...can I wire the same wires that go into the controller from the battery to the charge port on the bms? I've seen some people talk about wiring the brake cutoff to the regen also...not sure what they mean? Instead of shorting the BK to GND you wire the BK to the brake cutoff?

I feel like I'm actually close...I just need to get at the controller now...my bike is on the balcony of my appt so it's not the easiest thing to get at and I think the phase wires are soldered directly to the motor...whops...

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 08, 2018 6:00 am

Ok! Finally got the bike in from the balcony and took the controller off! Woohoo!

well not exactly...no BK but I did find a EBS?

Here's what I've got:
Image
Image
Image

Let me know what you guys think... is this controller worth keeping? I can easily pull 1300W on it and it doesn't even get warm with my cooling mods to it... I like it but just wish I had regen...

Full size flickr pics: https://flic.kr/s/aHskvTRjoQ

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by dogman dan » Feb 08, 2018 7:29 am

Since I'm such an idiot with electronics ( ag degree, not ee) I would just go buy a cheap ass new controller on ebay, one that does have the regen wires attached.

Keep the old one to use as a spare, for some day when your other one croaks.

ON the bms, it depends. Many don't like more than about 5 amps of reverse current. Regen works great of course, on a naked pack.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 08, 2018 7:29 am
Since I'm such an idiot with electronics ( ag degree, not ee) I would just go buy a cheap ass new controller on ebay, one that does have the regen wires attached.

Keep the old one to use as a spare, for some day when your other one croaks.

ON the bms, it depends. Many don't like more than about 5 amps of reverse current. Regen works great of course, on a naked pack.
I'm trying not to go that route right now. I think I've got a decent controller. Just need to figure out the regen thing. And I forgot to mention...my bms does accept reverse current on the outlet side. I was able to hookup my charger to the battery out side of the s that connects to the controller.

Back from research:
So after reviewing some sites and blogs...it looks like I've narrowed down regen or (electronic braking) to low/high...this would be the BL or BH pins on the underside of the board. I've read another blog where the controller says SL or SH. I assume B stands for brake..duh and L or H stands for low or high...now what I don't know is if the ebs solder pads need to be connected to enable regen... I would think the ebs needs to be soldered together and then ground either the BL to GND or BH to GND... I think I'll be able to test it this weekend! If it does work I might consider adding a switch so I can toggle between high or low.

Let me know your guys thoughts!

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by amberwolf » Feb 09, 2018 3:08 am

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am
And I forgot to mention...my bms does accept reverse current on the outlet side. I was able to hookup my charger to the battery out side of the s that connects to the controller.
"accept", yes, but it can't control it. Meaning, if the regen current exceeds the limit of the cells' charge rate, the BMS cannot stop it from happening (so if you were going down a long hill with regen teh whole way at a rate higher than the cells are made for, you could damage the battery). Also, if the regen current causes a cell (or teh whole pack) to exceed fully-charged voltage, the BMS can't stop that either, and again, on a long regen braking session it oculd damage the pack.

Only if the BMS uses teh same port for charge and discharge can the BMS control regen and protect the pack from it if it has to. (some BMS have the option for C&D on same port or on separate ones; most of the ones I've worked with or read of on the forums do not have the option--they are either one type or the other.

Also, as dogman pointed out, the BMS may not be able to handle more than a few amps of regen (or charging) current thru the discharge connector (if it isn't designed to do charge thru that port too). If it can't handle it then the FETs get hotter and hotter, and can eventually fail (or can overheat the board itself and melt the solder, which can flow and short other things. :( )

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 09, 2018 6:32 am

I get the reverse current limit...that is an unknown about my pack. I'm less worried about overvolting since my battery only really charges up to 53.2~v which gives me plenty of room with regen...
Image

I connected the EBS solder pads....

I also ported the BL BH and GND leads...will test those out on Sunday AM....
Image

To comment on the FETS. I assume you mean fets on the BMS? I've included a thermal pad and additional thermal paste on the BMS fets so that it has the best cooling.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by fechter » Feb 09, 2018 8:57 am

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am

Back from research:
So after reviewing some sites and blogs...it looks like I've narrowed down regen or (electronic braking) to low/high...this would be the BL or BH pins on the underside of the board. I've read another blog where the controller says SL or SH. I assume B stands for brake..duh and L or H stands for low or high...now what I don't know is if the ebs solder pads need to be connected to enable regen... I would think the ebs needs to be soldered together and then ground either the BL to GND or BH to GND... I think I'll be able to test it this weekend! If it does work I might consider adding a switch so I can toggle between high or low.

Let me know your guys thoughts!
BH or Brake high is looking for pack voltage to enable the braking. It's intended for using with a brake light.
BL goes to ground to enable braking. This is the most commonly used.
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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 09, 2018 9:31 am

fechter wrote:
Feb 09, 2018 8:57 am
Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 08, 2018 8:14 am

Back from research:
So after reviewing some sites and blogs...it looks like I've narrowed down regen or (electronic braking) to low/high...this would be the BL or BH pins on the underside of the board. I've read another blog where the controller says SL or SH. I assume B stands for brake..duh and L or H stands for low or high...now what I don't know is if the ebs solder pads need to be connected to enable regen... I would think the ebs needs to be soldered together and then ground either the BL to GND or BH to GND... I think I'll be able to test it this weekend! If it does work I might consider adding a switch so I can toggle between high or low.

Let me know your guys thoughts!
BH or Brake high is looking for pack voltage to enable the braking. It's intended for using with a brake light.
BL goes to ground to enable braking. This is the most commonly used.
So what does that look like for wiring? I haven't checked the top of the board but it almost looks like BL is already going out to the brake cutoff line on the handlebar brakes....I'll confirm this weekend. I'm planning on testing it just the way it is after soldering the two ebs pads together to see if regen works without any other modifications...Hopefully it does. Then I won't have to worry about anything else.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by fechter » Feb 09, 2018 3:05 pm

Right, the BL would go to the brake lever switch, then back to ground.

Most of these controllers also have settings in the software for the regen level. Hard to say if yours will work with software made for another model. I can see the connection points for the programmer on the board. It may be programmed already for some level of regen.

Here's a long topic on programming:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... lit=keywin
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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 09, 2018 4:04 pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 09, 2018 3:05 pm
Right, the BL would go to the brake lever switch, then back to ground.

Most of these controllers also have settings in the software for the regen level. Hard to say if yours will work with software made for another model. I can see the connection points for the programmer on the board. It may be programmed already for some level of regen.

Here's a long topic on programming:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... lit=keywin
Gotcha. How it was wired currently definitely doesn't have any regen and the brake cutoff is wired to BL. So I'm guessing by soldering the two EBS pads together that'll enable regen? So I'll test that...and if that doesn't work leave the EBS soldered together and connect the BL and GND? Assuming something doesn't work...I won't fry anything right? It just won't work?

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by dogman dan » Feb 10, 2018 8:46 am

Once you got it going, some good close up pics of where you soldered on the jumper wires will be a good resource for others to use.

Your title is ideal, for others searching.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 10, 2018 12:19 pm

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 10, 2018 8:46 am
Once you got it going, some good close up pics of where you soldered on the jumper wires will be a good resource for others to use.

Your title is ideal, for others searching.
Definitely! Since my controller is the generic controller with the $140 hub kit I would think some people definitely would want to mod it. It tops out around 31-32amps and it's rated for 26. It's very compact and 12 fet. I'm sure if I wanted to go all out I could improve the fets but my primary goal is getting regen to work.

Not sure if this is the best idea but I'm using 3 deans plugs for my 3 phase wires to hook up to my controller. That way I can easily connect or disconnect the motor.. Deans are pretty tight connectors so I'm not worried they will unplug.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 11, 2018 10:55 am

WOW...what a morning... did a TON of work to the bike. Totally rewired the bike and got it running. Regen DEFINITELY WORKS! The only mod needed is to solder the two EBS solder pads together. I haven't been able to fully test it but I can confirm with just the wheel spinning that regen does in-fact work. It only works near full speed and also only with 1 brake lever...which I kinda like.

I'm not sure on how much current is actually going back into the battery...that may be for another day...

Ideally Id like to have the regen brake be the back tire lever so that I can actually brake with the front and regen with the back...essentially using the motor as the brake instead of the brake brake...

Thanks for the help everyone! What an easy mod...just took a lot to get at!

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by dogman dan » Feb 12, 2018 7:30 am

Ahh, now I see the EBS pads you soldered on the pic. Better would be to solder on wires to a switch, or at least a jumper plug. For others reading, its connecting these two pads that enables regen, which then gets activated by the brake switch on an e bike brake handle. Click on the picture to see it bigger. Or save it to your computer, and then use the magnifier.
REGEN (EBS) pins on generic controller.  .jpg
When I was running regen, I liked it best activated by a separate push button on the bars. So I could get just regen anytime, or breaks without regen, or all of it.

Even with two torque arms, it still kept loosening my axle nuts, so next time I run regen, I will add the pinching torque arm.

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 13, 2018 8:31 am

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 12, 2018 7:30 am
Ahh, now I see the EBS pads you soldered on the pic. Better would be to solder on wires to a switch, or at least a jumper plug. For others reading, its connecting these two pads that enables regen, which then gets activated by the brake switch on an e bike brake handle. Click on the picture to see it bigger. Or save it to your computer, and then use the magnifier. REGEN (EBS) pins on generic controller. .jpg

When I was running regen, I liked it best activated by a separate push button on the bars. So I could get just regen anytime, or breaks without regen, or all of it.

Even with two torque arms, it still kept loosening my axle nuts, so next time I run regen, I will add the pinching torque arm.
You are correct on finding the solder pads. It's a bit difficult to zoom alot with a camera phone but I think the pictures are clear enough. Like I said above, my Flickr album is referenced and you can view the full sizes there. As for the manual switch....I like that it only works with 1 brake lever right now. Im thinking I'll use it for the rear lever so when I need to brake I can start with regen then if I need more aggressive braking I can use the front brake...Hopefully reducing brake wear...and I made the mistake of getting soft vbrake pads so they're wearing down pretty quick. Lol

I'm hoping to get the bike out in the next two weeks or so and give it a good ride. Once I get my new crank arm I'll actually be able to ride the bike without the pedal falling off...

I'm not too worried about the torque arms or rear nut. I've got a chro-molly frame with steel dropouts and they've been solid since I've had my bike thus far...

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Re: Enabling regenerative braking on eBay hub kit

Post by dogman dan » Feb 15, 2018 7:35 am

The photo was fine, good clear pic.

I, and the others here just needed it pointed out where you soldered. It could be different on other controllers of course. I just had a hard time spotting it at first.

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