Limiting power down to legal levels

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Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:53 am

Hi All,

I have a BBSHD MTB and it is obviously illegal for road use. The limit here in Australia is a ridiculous 250w pedelec or 200w with a throttle and 25km/h.

I was wondering what methods people are using to limit the power of their ebikes down to the legal limit of their country. I assume (maybe incorrectly) that you are allowed to have a larger motor/controller as long as you limit the power.

I know Dillinger have the Switcheroonie which may be a fine option but it is 150AUD which seems steep to me. (Maybe less steep than a fine or losing my bike :oops: ) I think it has the ability to display the power to the cops if you get pulled over?

Ideally it would be great to be able to cruise to my off road trails at legal power limits then ramp up the power when I get there.

Cheers
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby d8veh » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:25 am

Limiting the power won't make it legal. The motor must be "rated" at 250w or less. Therefore it's illegal to use that 1000w rated motor. There's no power restriction on a motor rated at 250w.

The best you can do is limit the speed to 25km/h and hope nobody looks under the motor. Also, you can't have a full-range throttle.
Last edited by d8veh on Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:07 am

Interesting. So the Dillinger switcheroonie is no good then for making it legal then?
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby wturber » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:35 pm

barbs00 wrote:Interesting. So the Dillinger switcheroonie is no good then for making it legal then?


If you are trying to fake your way through, then perhaps find a label from a legit 250 watt motor or dummy one up. And, of course, don't go zipping around at 75kph...
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby smashed » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:30 pm

Hi,
I am currently in the process of choosing a bike / DIY kit in OZ and have similar concerns.

However, I did note that Dillinger claim to make the BBSHD legal via the switcheroonie. I therefore feel fairly comfortable that I could purchase a BBSHD and at least talk my way out of trouble. (A rider may have a different issue if you are stopped because they were riding like an idiot).

http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/el ... llion.html

Vermillion is a dual use electric bike that can be street legal when you ride on the road and can be transformed into an overpowered monster when going off-road. The Vermillion comes kitted out with high-end components rarely seen on electric bikes. Components such as fully adjustable DNM competition level suspension front and rear, Tektro Dorado 180mm hydraulic brakes and quality Maxxis tires. Along with these high-end bike related components, the Vermillion is packed full of all the absolute best in e-bike performance including the latest rear hub from Bafang (rated up to 1,500W peak power) 30A peak sinusoidal controller and high capacity, long range 530Wh Lithium-ion frame battery. To access the dual usage of the Vermillion, customers will require the Switcheroonie (sold separately) which is required to legally reduce the power of the controller to 250W.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby d8veh » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:19 am

You have two choices in Australia. You can have 200w maximum output power or a bike that complies with EN15194. That Dillenger bike doesn't comply with either, so it would be illegal to use it on the road in Australia. EN15194 limits the motor on its rating to 250w max. Dillenger themselves say in that advert that the motor is rated at 1500w. That's six times what's allowed.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:39 am

Yeah, I don't know how long vendors will get away with selling such powerful bikes and telling ppl they can be limited to 250w for on road use. It looks like this is illegal and they are taking a big risk making this claim. Personally I would just say for off-road use on private property on my advertising and let ppl do what they want with their bikes.

When I got my BBSHD I was surprised how large it was. I wonder if a cop would believe a 250w stick smacked on the side of it? Obviously if you are going 60km/h and not even pedalling you are in trouble!
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby SaladFish » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:45 pm

I have looked into this.

The compliance is tested by putting the ebike on a special <1000w dyno. If the power as measured at the rear wheel is above 200w (or 250w for that category) then it fails to comply.

The fine is Unregistered $659, uninsured $659 and never had a licence (motorcycle license) $796. Total: $2,114 If you go to court they can give you much more expensive fines.

So the goal is to limit the power at the rear wheel to under 200 watts. Testing costs $81 at S&R PRO PERFORMANCE BIKES AND DYNO TUNING in Penrith (I called them for a quote).

How can you configure a controller to limit a motor to <200 watts as measured at the rear wheel?
Last edited by SaladFish on Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby fechter » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:57 pm

SaladFish wrote:
How can you configure a controller to limit a motor to <200 watts as measured at the rear wheel?


That should be pretty easy by programming the current limit to a lower value. Some pretty simple math should tell you what you need depending on your pack voltage. If you program for 200W input to the controller, it will be less at the rear wheel.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby flat tire » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:58 pm

A way, WAY better solution nobody mentioned is to keep eyes peeled, and slow down and pedal when you see cops. If you can't see cops early enough to slow down before they bust you then you shouldn't be riding an ebike on the street. Problem solved.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby SaladFish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:58 am

fechter wrote:
SaladFish wrote:
How can you configure a controller to limit a motor to <200 watts as measured at the rear wheel?


That should be pretty easy by programming the current limit to a lower value. Some pretty simple math should tell you what you need depending on your pack voltage. If you program for 200W input to the controller, it will be less at the rear wheel.


I reckon the only way to make the most of the 200 watt limit would be to have the wheel on the dynometer and adjusting the controller at the testing facility. It's power at the wheel that matters. Then you'd have papers proving the power output while maximizing the power within the law. Its up to the police to verify those results on the dyno but at least you'd have peace of mind should it come to that. No point risking thousands in fines or living in fear.

Are there any good tutorials for limiting a 250w or 500w controller down to <200w (something a layman could understand)?
Last edited by SaladFish on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby Dumsterdave » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:35 am

i doubt if they would go through all the trouble to have you head down to a dyno testing centre.... They may set a future date that you must go to a dyno, but if thats the case then you would probably have plenty of time to limit your motor. I would think that just slapping a 250W sticker on it would work in almost all cases
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby flat tire » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:00 pm

Wow I can't imagine what it's like to be someone who doesn't understand that you can PRETEND your bike is legal, and ride to stay under the radar, and never have trouble. Also who wants a bike that has 250W or whatever anyway? Maybe with a hidden motor you can cheat in a human power race or something, that's about it :D
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby SaladFish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:51 pm

Dumsterdave wrote:i doubt if they would go through all the trouble to have you head down to a dyno testing centre.... They may set a future date that you must go to a dyno, but if thats the case then you would probably have plenty of time to limit your motor. I would think that just slapping a 250W sticker on it would work in almost all cases


I asked the police and they said they confiscate the ebike and have it tested by an engineer, I contacted an engineer that performed the testing for the local legislation authority. So you wouldn't be able to tamper with the evidence.

flat tire wrote:Wow I can't imagine what it's like to be someone who doesn't understand that you can PRETEND your bike is legal, and ride to stay under the radar, and never have trouble. Also who wants a bike that has 250W or whatever anyway? Maybe with a hidden motor you can cheat in a human power race or something, that's about it :D


Welcome to nanny state Australia. Breaking the law is all fun and games until the cops catch you.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby flat tire » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:49 pm

SaladFish wrote:Welcome to nanny state Australia. Breaking the law is all fun and games until the cops catch you.


We have one of those too. The best approach is to take matters into your own hands :shock:. I find it a little hard to believe that bicycle enforcement in your country is SO strict that an ebiker who passes a cop pedaling at the legal speed would get stopped or even noticed. I pass cops all the time. If I blew by one at 40MPH without pedaling I would expect to get stopped. 20 MPH and pedaling? Ha, please. Even in NYC where they're huge against ebikes it's not that bad.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:25 pm

I agree you are probably unlikely to get stopped if you are riding sensibly but the fines are huge and you may lose your bike.

The other problem is if some pedestrian texting on their phone steps in front of you and you crash into them - you are at fault as your bike is illegal. I don't know what the penalty for this is but I bet it is not pretty!

After this thread the Dillinger Switcheroonie is not looking to bad.
Has anyone got one of these - can we switch the power level quickly?

Thanks for investigating all this with the cops and the engineer, that is very helpful.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby e-beach » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:05 pm

Coppers are coppers and one can never know how they react. Yesterday afternoon I was in the left hand turn lane making a legal left when a motorist across from me stopped and allowed me to turn even though he had the right-of-way. I safely turned in front of him and as I was completing my turn I looked over and saw a copper staring at me with a strained look on his face from the stopped traffic to my left. He didn't come after me but he could have as I didn't wait for the on-coming traffic to pass before making my turn.

As for the opening question "I was wondering what methods people are using to limit the power of their e-bikes down to the legal limit of their country." get yourself a potentiometer and put it inline with the return voltage on your throttle. It is kind of like a 3p switch only it is more adjustable. Find the output that keeps you legal, and crank it up for off-road. If you are slick-enough, you might be able to have an override push-button switch that can be hidden enough so if you get pulled over, you can push it before the "confiscation" starts and claim compliance later. The override button will jump the potentiometer (or inline resistor if you want a 1 position setting) on the return wire (usually white wire) from the throttle.

I just bought a new thumb throttle and it has a red button to stop the throttle, consequently stopping the motor. Use that button to jump the inline resistor or potentiometer and you might just have a quick way to get in and out of compliance.

:D
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:31 am

e-beach wrote:Coppers are coppers and one can never know how they react. Yesterday afternoon I was in the left hand turn lane making a legal left when a motorist across from me stopped and allowed me to turn even though he had the right-of-way. I safely turned in front of him and as I was completing my turn I looked over and saw a copper staring at me with a strained look on his face from the stopped traffic to my left. He didn't come after me but he could have as I didn't wait for the on-coming traffic to pass before making my turn.

As for the opening question "I was wondering what methods people are using to limit the power of their e-bikes down to the legal limit of their country." get yourself a potentiometer and put it inline with the return voltage on your throttle. It is kind of like a 3p switch only it is more adjustable. Find the output that keeps you legal, and crank it up for off-road. If you are slick-enough, you might be able to have an override push-button switch that can be hidden enough so if you get pulled over, you can push it before the "confiscation" starts and claim compliance later. The override button will jump the potentiometer (or inline resistor if you want a 1 position setting) on the return wire (usually white wire) from the throttle.

I just bought a new thumb throttle and it has a red button to stop the throttle, consequently stopping the motor. Use that button to jump the inline resistor or potentiometer and you might just have a quick way to get in and out of compliance.

:D


I like that idea. Especially since the Dillinger switcheroonie is 150AUD.

I have a 52v battery - could you provide a link of a suitable potentiometer?

Wait, how does that work for the PAS?

2nd edit.....
Been doing some reading...

So to limit to 200w for a 52v battery (lets say 50v) I would need only 4 amps.
Ohms law
R=V/I
R=50/4
R=12.5 ohms

So I need a potentiometer/resister that with up to 12.5ohms resistance.
Seem correct?
Sorry I am such a noob! :mrgreen:
Last edited by barbs00 on Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby KINNINVIEKID » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:03 pm

barbs00 wrote:
After this thread the Dillinger Switcheroonie is not looking to bad.
Has anyone got one of these - can we switch the power level quickly?
l.

I have a switcheroonie(got it free to test) and it takes a couple of minutes at most to change settings.
You have to unplug the LCD then plug the box in its place.
Turn it on and read the current setting then choose the setting you need and press a button.
A few seconds later unplug the box and reconnect the LCD and its done.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:15 pm

KINNINVIEKID wrote:
barbs00 wrote:
After this thread the Dillinger Switcheroonie is not looking to bad.
Has anyone got one of these - can we switch the power level quickly?
l.

I have a switcheroonie(got it free to test) and it takes a couple of minutes at most to change settings.
You have to unplug the LCD then plug the box in its place.
Turn it on and read the current setting then choose the setting you need and press a button.
A few seconds later unplug the box and reconnect the LCD and its done.


Thanks, So you can't just press a button or 2 and switch between power levels?
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby tommie » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:46 pm

This may interest you---- > https://eggbikes.com/eggrider/eggrider-v1b

Check out their videos and report back
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:24 am

tommie wrote:This may interest you---- > https://eggbikes.com/eggrider/eggrider-v1b

Check out their videos and report back


That does look quite good. I was always disappointed when I realised my C965 display did not show battery voltage or watts. This seems to do both.

It looks quick to change between road and off road modes - which is great if the fuzz pull you over!

I wonder if you get pulled over and you are in street legal mode if the system will remain in street legal mode if you take your phone off the bike. If it reverts to normal mode it will obviously fail the police engineers inspection. (I think the controller will stay in the last programmed mode but I am not 100% on that)

I will email the egg guys and report back.

It looks like you can't get it yet as it is still in Beta.

Cheers
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby tigcross » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:26 am

I know that cost is an issue, but considering the value of the fines and the cost of your bike, why not go with a Cycle analyst V3? there's a company I found that sells it as a mod for the Bafang mid drives. https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/index.php/en/cycle-analyst-v3/special-edition-ca3-bbs-set The V3 can give you all the info energy info on your bike you could ever need as well as has three programmable presets that are really easy to switch through. You can set it to flash up in the lowest power setting so if ever confiscated and tested it will always pass.
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby barbs00 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:35 am

To be honest I didn't know you could do that with a CA.

The price however.....my wife may kill me if I spend to much more on my bike :?
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Re: Limiting power down to legal levels

Postby e-beach » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:15 am

An inexpensive liner taper potentiometer spliced into the return wire (often the white wire) from your throttle will do the trick. No amp problems doing it that way. One side of the wire to an outside post, the other side to the middle post. Play with it until you find the setting that works for you.

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