How to prevent punctures once and for all!

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How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:54 am

Today I had (again) a flat-tire after (probably) riding on broken glass which was probably a bottle-beer that has been "placed" there "carefully" by some low-life form.
I use Schwalbe super-moto X tire (27.5inch x 2.8inch) which is supposed to have a good armor. Apparently not.
I am not asking this time for an alternative tire. I kinda of starting to give up this fragile combination of pneumatic air support + skinny bicycle tire. (compared with motorcycle/auto tires)
I also have anti-puncture liquid inside the tube which apparently only works on commercials.... (where they tear the tire with a big screwdriver and the hole is sealed....)

I am wondering if there is an option to perhaps fill the entire tube volume with some sort of substance that would replace the air as the suspension, will be solid so it won't escape via any small hole, and I assume that it would be heavy. I don't mind even a 2kg weight increase per tire. I am just sick of walking home with a heavy E-bike, because of the nature of bicycle tires to be weight-weenies and so not armored at all.

I also know of those rubber/silicon strips which you place between the tube and the tire, but I know those dry up quickly and then puncture the tubes by themselves...

I am also open for a suggestion for a motorcycle tire (with a road profile), that can be fit on 27.5inch rim, and if not - I don't mind going to a different rim diameter and building the wheel from scratch.

And last - I have a set of Schwalbe marathon plus tour tires - Although they are skinny, but they are reputable for being truly flatless. Is it valid also in the case of glass?
Their only drawback is that they are narrow. Too narrow for fast E-bike urban riding that includes lots of pot-holes.
Last edited by thunderstorm80 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby fechter » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:22 am

Other than solid tires (which I would NOT recommend for anything), there will always be a chance for a flat. I have some very heavy moped tires on my bike and still managed to get a flat with a very large nail. Other than the nail, they seem to be impervious to all kinds of other things that would normally flat a tire, like thorns.

Not sure if there is a MC tire that would fit that rim size, but that would be my suggestion.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby atarijedi » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:46 pm

There are bicycle tire manufacturers that make tubeless ready rims. I think Dt Swiss has some.

It won't prevent flats, but it's easier to patch a tubeless.

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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby motomech » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:18 pm

I use the skinny flat resistant tires(Forte Gothams) on my 20 mph assist bike and haven't had a flat since I started using them. But it's my understanding they need to have the pressure kept high to work. Even w/the tires @ 50 psi, the extra material in the thick thread makes them feel squirmy. At 30 psi, they are downright spooky, but I tolerate them, after all, this bike only does 20 mph.
My other bike that goes 27 mph and has wider rims installed to fit 2.5" tires(CST's, Holly Rollers) has been a struggle. These tires are thin, especially the H.R's, which are really thin between the tread blocks. I tried everything, including liners and Slime tubes and they didn't work at all. So I finally figured if I couldn't prevent flats, I would make the repair as easy as possible. So I made my own "ghetto" tubeless tires;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71203&p=1076342&hilit=+ghetto+tubeless#p1076342

http://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/g ... ks.240026/

And now I carry a mini-plug kit made for bicycles;

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017B ... UTF8&psc=1

And a CO2 inflator and an attitude of "bring on the flats".

Can't say how it works because in a case of "reverse Murphy's Law", I haven't had a flat in the year since I made the change.

Do have to replenish the Stan's sealant every 6 months or so, as it tends to evaporate out.
Last edited by motomech on Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby DRMousseau » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:41 am

As a kid in the early 60's, I would get so jealous of those guy's on skinny high-pressured tires,.... not only did they go faster, but they had far fewer flats than my 24" balloon-tired "tank"! And they were jus thin-skinned, barely there tires with like 90psi in 'em!!!! Of course they were ALWAYS pumping them up to keep that pressure up high,.... otherwise they too, were subject to flats. Took me YEARS to realize that relationship.

thunderstorm80 wrote:Today I had (again) a flat-tire after (probably) riding on broken glass which was probably a bottle-beer that has been "placed" there "carefully" by some low-life form.
I use Schwalbe super-moto X tire (27.5inch x 2.8inch) which is supposed to have a good armor. Apparently not.
I am not asking this time for an alternative tire. I kinda of starting to give up this fragile combination of pneumatic air support + skinny bicycle tire. (compared with motorcycle/auto tires)
I also have anti-puncture liquid inside the tube which apparently only works on commercials.... (where they tear the tire with a big screwdriver and the hole is sealed....).

Skinny or not, "armored" or otherwise,... that tire pressure has seemed most important to me. Even that gooey stuff is useless without proper tire pressure. But everyone seems to want a "softer" ride, with minimal pressure,.... except them guys on those thin-skinned, barely there tires! Their "softer" ride was found in other factors,... frames, seats, and forks and stuff.

thunderstorm80 wrote:I am wondering if there is an option to perhaps fill the entire tube volume with some sort of substance that would replace the air as the suspension, will be solid so it won't escape via any small hole, and I assume that it would be heavy. I don't mind even a 2kg weight increase per tire. I am just sick of walking home with a heavy E-bike, because of the nature of bicycle tires to be weight-weenies and so not armored at all.

Oh ya,.... "semi-pneumatic" tires were on the little trikes I had before that 24" balloon-tired tank. Never had flats with them! lol!

thunderstorm80 wrote:I also know of those rubber/silicon strips which you place between the tube and the tire, but I know those dry up quickly and then puncture the tubes by themselves....

Especially if that tire pressure is less than what the tire was designed for! (hint, hint)


thunderstorm80 wrote:I am also open for a suggestion for a motorcycle tire (with a road profile), that can be fit on 27.5inch rim, and if not - I don't mind going to a different rim diameter and building the wheel from scratch.

There's other posts of those using motorcycle rims to accommodate motorcycle tires. I'm in the midst of a crazy "radical" build right now,... a wild "street only" design, reminiscent of the motorcycle "chopper" style. Would you believe that 16" motorcycle tires would fit a 20" bicycle rim?!?! With an outside tire dia. of 26" or so, it's close enough for my needs,... a radical style AND able to carry me plus an adult passenger. Because of the complex and special fit of the hub-motor into the extremely wide "dropouts", I DON'T EVER wanna to mess with a rear flat. I'll be using a tubeless mounted 160/70x16 4ply,... probably a bit more than what your lookin' for. With adequate inflation pressure, I expect little trouble,... and cheap tubeless plug repairs IF ever necessary.

thunderstorm80 wrote:And last - I have a set of Schwalbe marathon plus tour tires - Although they are skinny, but they are reputable for being truly flatless. Is it valid also in the case of glass?
Their only drawback is that they are narrow. Too narrow for fast E-bike urban riding that includes lots of pot-holes.

Oh how I shudder when I see glass and junk too late to avoid. I currently have a "Big Apple" on my 40mph 29er,..... Kevlar and all, ya know. No goo in the Schwalb tube. And I top the pressure off a pound or two every week or so. A thousand miles of trashy road shoulders,... no real problems yet! Did hear a sudden "ticking" once. Stopped to find a HUGE construction staple stuck right thru the shoulder of the tread,... catchin' on the fender and ticking. No idea what they use such a giant 3" staple for, but I slipped it out without tearing the tread,... jus two kinda big minor holes that I watch whenever I check tire pressures. Did I mention the importance of proper tire pressure??? Think that staple would have punched right in had I'd any less than the max pressure I ALWAYS maintain.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby dogman dan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:02 am

There are foam "tubes" that are solid, going into the tire like a tube. The ride sucks, and they are heavy as hell. Never the less, I get tempted to put one in the rear, motor wheel. Nails get tipped up by the front tire, then zap the rear tire every time. Often as not, a rip that ruins both tire and tube, that slime cant handle to get you home.

I have wondered about splitting one of those solid tube substitutes in half, so the bottom half inch of tire is solid foam, then a tube fills the top by the rim. The idea is less punctures from the little stuff, short thorns, short staples, etc. Then when its just gone flat because you hit a 6" lag screw, at least some limp home on it ability.
Last edited by dogman dan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:17 pm

DRMousseau wrote:As a kid in the early 60's, I would get so jealous of those guy's on skinny high-pressured tires,.... not only did they go faster, but they had far fewer flats than my 24" balloon-tired "tank"! And they were jus thin-skinned, barely there tires with like 90psi in 'em!!!! Of course they were ALWAYS pumping them up to keep that pressure up high,.... otherwise they too, were subject to flats. Took me YEARS to realize that relationship.

thunderstorm80 wrote:Today I had (again) a flat-tire after (probably) riding on broken glass which was probably a bottle-beer that has been "placed" there "carefully" by some low-life form.
I use Schwalbe super-moto X tire (27.5inch x 2.8inch) which is supposed to have a good armor. Apparently not.
I am not asking this time for an alternative tire. I kinda of starting to give up this fragile combination of pneumatic air support + skinny bicycle tire. (compared with motorcycle/auto tires)
I also have anti-puncture liquid inside the tube which apparently only works on commercials.... (where they tear the tire with a big screwdriver and the hole is sealed....).

Skinny or not, "armored" or otherwise,... that tire pressure has seemed most important to me. Even that gooey stuff is useless without proper tire pressure. But everyone seems to want a "softer" ride, with minimal pressure,.... except them guys on those thin-skinned, barely there tires! Their "softer" ride was found in other factors,... frames, seats, and forks and stuff.

thunderstorm80 wrote:I am wondering if there is an option to perhaps fill the entire tube volume with some sort of substance that would replace the air as the suspension, will be solid so it won't escape via any small hole, and I assume that it would be heavy. I don't mind even a 2kg weight increase per tire. I am just sick of walking home with a heavy E-bike, because of the nature of bicycle tires to be weight-weenies and so not armored at all.

Oh ya,.... "semi-pneumatic" tires were on the little trikes I had before that 24" balloon-tired tank. Never had flats with them! lol!

thunderstorm80 wrote:I also know of those rubber/silicon strips which you place between the tube and the tire, but I know those dry up quickly and then puncture the tubes by themselves....

Especially if that tire pressure is less than what the tire was designed for! (hint, hint)


thunderstorm80 wrote:I am also open for a suggestion for a motorcycle tire (with a road profile), that can be fit on 27.5inch rim, and if not - I don't mind going to a different rim diameter and building the wheel from scratch.

There's other posts of those using motorcycle rims to accommodate motorcycle tires. I'm in the midst of a crazy "radical" build right now,... a wild "street only" design, reminiscent of the motorcycle "chopper" style. Would you believe that 16" motorcycle tires would fit a 20" bicycle rim?!?! With an outside tire dia. of 26" or so, it's close enough for my needs,... a radical style AND able to carry me plus an adult passenger. Because of the complex and special fit of the hub-motor into the extremely wide "dropouts", I DON'T EVER wanna to mess with a rear flat. I'll be using a tubeless mounted 160/70x16 4ply,... probably a bit more than what your lookin' for. With adequate inflation pressure, I expect little trouble,... and cheap tubeless plug repairs IF ever necessary.

thunderstorm80 wrote:And last - I have a set of Schwalbe marathon plus tour tires - Although they are skinny, but they are reputable for being truly flatless. Is it valid also in the case of glass?
Their only drawback is that they are narrow. Too narrow for fast E-bike urban riding that includes lots of pot-holes.

Oh how I shudder when I see glass and junk too late to avoid. I currently have a "Big Apple" on my 40mph 29er,..... Kevlar and all, ya know. No goo in the Schwalb tube. And I top the pressure off a pound or two every week or so. A thousand miles of trashy road shoulders,... no real problems yet! Did hear a sudden "ticking" once. Stopped to find a HUGE construction staple stuck right thru the shoulder of the tread,... catchin' on the fender and ticking. No idea what they use such a giant 3" staple for, but I slipped it out without tearing the tread,... jus two kinda big minor holes that I watch whenever I check tire pressures. Did I mention the importance of proper tire pressure??? Think that staple would have punched right in had I'd any less than the max pressure I ALWAYS maintain.


So you say - stick to the maximum pressure?
On my E-bikes I use the minimum allowed pressure because it provides cushion and best-protects against vibrations which eventually loosen screws/nuts/or worse... After all, rolling resistance is less of an issue compared with pedal powered only bikes. (I live in a city with ALOT of pot holes)
The probability of getting a puncture increases with bigger contact patch (bigger at lower pressure) but decreases on that contact patch with lower pressure as things like glass/nails/etc tend to penetrate less a lower pressured tire. So you think the combination of high pressure with smaller contact area is better?
Is it scientifically proved?

Regarding your big apples - You use a separate kevlar belt between your tire and the tube or is it part of the big apple tires? I have a set of big apple (28x2.35inch) and I wonder if they will be up for the task, or will the Hookworms (28x2.5inch) would provide a better protection as they are heavier and tougher.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:21 pm

atarijedi wrote:There are bicycle tire manufacturers that make tubeless ready rims. I think Dt Swiss has some.

It won't prevent flats, but it's easier to patch a tubeless.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Is it possible to use a "worm" patch for autos, to seal in realtime a leaking or completely deflated tube-less bicycle tire?
A friend recommended a pressurized spray that is intended for cars/motorcycles and both refills the tire but also contains a gel which temporary blocks the puncture and allows you to ride safely home. (No limp on low pressure - full working pressure). It works only for a few hours, and then the tube must be disposed.
Do you have an experience with that?

I am also wondering if there are tires as tough as the hookworms (should be heavy!) for the 27.5inch size?
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby Chalo » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:32 pm

27.5 is the "new hotness", recreational/fad tire size. You won't find many utility tires in that size. But it's the same rim diameter as 650B or ISO 584 (another novelty wheel size), and you probably will be able to get a narrower tire with good puncture protection if your rims are less than 40mm wide. If your rims are more than 40mm wide, you're pretty much stuck with fatty tires made for toy bikes.

Schwalbe lists a 40-584 Marathon Plus in their catalog.

Oh, and forget solid tubes and tires. If it were that easy, it would be common.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby motomech » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:24 pm

Amen to that. I tried a solid tube and it was awful.
I would think cutting it in half(a chore in itself)and adding a tube, would result in something half as awful.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, 2.4 Holly Rollers run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-48A
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby markz » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:24 am

I love the way Chalo states his mind.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby ions82 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:44 am

On a number of my bikes, I've used a system where I take a smaller tire, cut the bead off, and put it inside the outer tire (so it acts as a liner.) The cut tire needs to fit snug inside the outer tire. It certainly doesn't make the ride any more supple, but it's about as close to "flatproof" as one can get without resorting to solid stuff.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby dogman dan » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:36 am

I tried that for awhile, but for off road where I ride still not enough. Chalo calls that the system. Works great on goat heads, and was used before you could get a thick tube. The ideal tire to use is an old street slick, or a road bike tire.

Re the solid tire, half as awful might be enough. But only one quarter as awful, still three quarters awful might be the result. Mostly I had thought maybe for street riding it would allow a limp home mode on a fully flat tire. Once I see that inch long gash in the tire, I've limped home on the flat for miles, but its a big risk to the rim. You have to ride very slow, and keep that tire squirm down to where you can ride with the rubber under the rim. ( or do 50 mph, letting centripetal force inflate the tire)
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:02 am

Chalo wrote:27.5 is the "new hotness", recreational/fad tire size. You won't find many utility tires in that size. But it's the same rim diameter as 650B or ISO 584 (another novelty wheel size), and you probably will be able to get a narrower tire with good puncture protection if your rims are less than 40mm wide. If your rims are more than 40mm wide, you're pretty much stuck with fatty tires made for toy bikes.

Schwalbe lists a 40-584 Marathon Plus in their catalog.

Oh, and forget solid tubes and tires. If it were that easy, it would be common.


The bike has 29mm front and 25mm rear wide rims. (ISO 584 or 27.5inch)
I measured, and the rearstay is so spacious that I can fit there a 700c wheel with 29x2.5inch hookworm, while using a 40-584 is way too narrow and brings other dangers. (I remind we have lots of pot holes and the E-bike can reach speeds of 60kph)
As you told me once, the hookworms are almost as tough as the marathon plus's, right? Of course the plus's are the perfect flatless, but they are narrow. Way too narrow and dangerous for fast pot-hole city riding... I actually already have a set of Big apples (29x2.35) which I could use, but I think it's better to buy the hookworms since they should protect way better against flats...
Now to another dilema - The suspension fork of that bike accepts the current 27.5inch 2.8inch tires with just a little room to spare, but won't accept more than 29 x 2.1 tires so I will need to switch to a 29inch fork so I can fit the 29x2.5 hookworms. Or, I can keep the fork and and mount a narrower Marathon plus tire. The widest plus they make is the MTB version at 29 x 2.1inch, but I heard it tends to skid on wet roads as it was designed for offroads mostly. Is it true?
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby markz » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:12 pm

What about plastic thats the width of what you need, and ever so slightly curve to match the tube.
Then maybe a layer of some durable fabric, thinking Kevlar fabric like used in stab proof vests.
https://www.amazon.com/Black-Denier-Coa ... lar+Fabric
https://www.amazon.com/12-FT-KEVLAR-FAB ... lar+Fabric
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby amberwolf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:47 am

That's already what's in some of the various puncture-proof/resistant tires.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby ginekolog » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:06 am

A year ago i started using slime tubes. Not problems since, before i had pucntures every 6 months.
Once i even got hole 2mm big. Slume tube deflated to 0,5 bar but bike was still ridable 8)

https://www.slime.com/us/products/bike/tubes/
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby DRMousseau » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:02 am

amberwolf wrote:That's already what's in some of the various puncture-proof/resistant tires.

These work great "IF",... these materials are designed and engineered into the construction of the tire. As an "optional" insert/liner between tube and tire, they present advantages WITH disadvantages. Again, they seem best with max tire pressures to prevent movement/flexing and tube chafing/failure, and of course suitable for tubed tires only.

ions82 wrote:On a number of my bikes, I've used a system where I take a smaller tire, cut the bead off, and put it inside the outer tire (so it acts as a liner.) The cut tire needs to fit snug inside the outer tire. It certainly doesn't make the ride any more supple, but it's about as close to "flatproof" as one can get without resorting to solid stuff.

I remember when the "reverse" of this was popular for "ice" tires,... an old worn tire had the bead carefully and "strategically" severed, panhead sheet metal screws were inserted from the inside. The "ice boot" was then fitted OVER the tire assembly that was then inflated tightly inside the boot. Pure hell when they came apart, but "ice-racers" were always a daring bunch anyway! lol

thunderstorm80 wrote:
atarijedi wrote:Is it possible to use a "worm" patch for autos, to seal in realtime a leaking or completely deflated tube-less bicycle tire?

YES! Though not suggested or recommended! Tubeless bicycle tires light carcass constructions will suffer even more irreparable damage from such a repair, but it may get ya get home for a replacement. And those automotive "fix-a-flat" inflators w/sealants,.... haha, like emergency roadside auto repairs, eh maybe. I HAVE had success with the stuff in tubed tires,.... what a mess though.

thunderstorm80 wrote:So you say - stick to the maximum pressure?
On my E-bikes I use the minimum allowed pressure because it provides cushion and best-protects against vibrations which eventually loosen screws/nuts/or worse... After all, rolling resistance is less of an issue compared with pedal powered only bikes. (I live in a city with ALOT of pot holes)
The probability of getting a puncture increases with bigger contact patch (bigger at lower pressure) but decreases on that contact patch with lower pressure as things like glass/nails/etc tend to penetrate less a lower pressured tire. So you think the combination of high pressure with smaller contact area is better?
Is it scientifically proved?.

Let's say proven by design engineers. These are the guys (AND gals!) I've talked to most when I needed to know more of the tires I've used previously. Although I've not yet met an engineer of specific bicycle tires, the topic has come up among others. A stogy bunch, but If you truly wanna know, their mouth never stops runnin' with all their excitement, lol! Still, like bicycles, bike tires jus aren't thought of very highly by most American engineers, yet the worldwide market is HUGE! Tire technology has seen some awesome advances, and the "balloon" tires of my childhood suffering were much different than todays "high-tech" look-alike. And MORE are being specifically designed for "the new" e-bike market! Most all bicycle tires are now radial ply rather than the popular bias ply of the past. Carcass fabrics are fine synthetic, instead of coarse cotton or racy silks, and while wire beads are still popular over nylon, the newer Kevlar/aramids/carbons have been pretty dominant in the industry as of late, and didn't even EXIST for a good portion of my life.

And yes,... I tend to stick to the higher max pressure ratings on ALL my tires, auto, truck, motorcycle, industrial, bicycles, carts, EVERYTHING! Because they last longer, less wear, and have greater damage resistance, and ya, less rolling resistance that usually means greater energy mileage and efficiency. This is what MOST tires (regardless of use), are generally designed for. High pressures, WITHOUT an accompanying load weight, do tend to "bounce" or rebound more, and can affect handling and traction as an important matter of safety, and of course "comfort",.... although "comfort" isn't an important design consideration of tires. Comfort is that of vehicle purpose in chassis and suspension, including bike frames. While lower pressures ARE more comfortable in relation to weight load, they will also rebound less and provide a bigger and more constant contact with "road surface" that may improve handling relative to weight load. They will also flex more, that means "break down" and won't last long, not to mention internal movement of the tube which leads to a somewhat shortened life. That flex also generates damaging heat that contributes to "break down",.. though not much of an issue with low speed bikes and such. And tube movement can generate TONS of heat in many applications, and is why most all high-speed uses are tubeless. But that flex can ALSO improve "grip" on various surfaces, even though "grip" is a considered design factor of compound selection and tread/footprint design. That flex also stretches carcass fabrics INWARD over hazard objects that can cause an increase risk of punctures rather than deflecting away thru designed pressure (likely why I found a construction staple in-&-out thru the tread and not the "belts", as I noted previously).

Nothing really wrong with running lower PSI. The stated pressure ranges are well within specific design factors of a broad safety margin. I've jus preferred the longer life and fewer problems of higher pressure, including punctures, bruising, and other failures.


thunderstorm80 wrote:Regarding your big apples - You use a separate kevlar belt between your tire and the tube or is it part of the big apple tires? I have a set of big apple (28x2.35inch) and I wonder if they will be up for the task, or will the Hookworms (28x2.5inch) would provide a better protection as they are heavier and tougher.

BTW,.... my Big Apples DO NOT have a Kevlar/carbon carcass as I had thought, and inaccurately mentioned previously. My apologies. Seems they are jus of quality nylon. And personally,... I think the Hookworms ARE a good quality tire. Heavier? Tougher? Well, there's trade-off in everything. I've never tried 'em yet, but I'd consider them.

What I really want, is a tire that doesn't "pick-up" water and throw into my face and up my back, UGH! :roll:
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby motomech » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 pm

thunderstorm80 wrote:
atarijedi wrote:
Is it possible to use a "worm" patch for autos, to seal in realtime a leaking or completely deflated tube-less bicycle tire?



Though not suggested or recommended! Tubeless bicycle tires light carcass constructions will suffer even more irreparable damage from such a repair, but it may get ya get home for a replacement. And those automotive "fix-a-flat" inflators w/sealants,..


That's why one uses a plug kit designed for bicycle tires like the one I linked above.
"Fix-A-Flat in cans does not work. But since the tubeless tire will already have sealant in it, after the hole is plugged, all that is needed is to air it up.

What I really want, is a tire that doesn't "pick-up" water and throw into my face and up my back, UGH! :roll:


Fenders?
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, 2.4 Holly Rollers run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-48A
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby rojitor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:44 pm

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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:36 pm

motomech wrote:That's why one uses a plug kit designed for bicycle tires like the one I linked above.
"Fix-A-Flat in cans does not work. But since the tubeless tire will already have sealant in it, after the hole is plugged, all that is needed is to air it up.


From my experience, no sealant can plug damage from glass shreds or other sharp metals on the road. If you use another kind of sealant, I would like to know about it :D
Can that plug-kit for bicycle tire repair the above damages? And can it work with tubes or only with tubeless ? (I don't mind if the tube should be disposed after such repair, only so I can get home)
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby thunderstorm80 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:44 pm

DRMousseau wrote:
thunderstorm80 wrote:So you say - stick to the maximum pressure?
On my E-bikes I use the minimum allowed pressure because it provides cushion and best-protects against vibrations which eventually loosen screws/nuts/or worse... After all, rolling resistance is less of an issue compared with pedal powered only bikes. (I live in a city with ALOT of pot holes)
The probability of getting a puncture increases with bigger contact patch (bigger at lower pressure) but decreases on that contact patch with lower pressure as things like glass/nails/etc tend to penetrate less a lower pressured tire. So you think the combination of high pressure with smaller contact area is better?
Is it scientifically proved?.

Let's say proven by design engineers. These are the guys (AND gals!) I've talked to most when I needed to know more of the tires I've used previously. Although I've not yet met an engineer of specific bicycle tires, the topic has come up among others. A stogy bunch, but If you truly wanna know, their mouth never stops runnin' with all their excitement, lol! Still, like bicycles, bike tires jus aren't thought of very highly by most American engineers, yet the worldwide market is HUGE! Tire technology has seen some awesome advances, and the "balloon" tires of my childhood suffering were much different than todays "high-tech" look-alike. And MORE are being specifically designed for "the new" e-bike market! Most all bicycle tires are now radial ply rather than the popular bias ply of the past. Carcass fabrics are fine synthetic, instead of coarse cotton or racy silks, and while wire beads are still popular over nylon, the newer Kevlar/aramids/carbons have been pretty dominant in the industry as of late, and didn't even EXIST for a good portion of my life.

And yes,... I tend to stick to the higher max pressure ratings on ALL my tires, auto, truck, motorcycle, industrial, bicycles, carts, EVERYTHING! Because they last longer, less wear, and have greater damage resistance, and ya, less rolling resistance that usually means greater energy mileage and efficiency. This is what MOST tires (regardless of use), are generally designed for. High pressures, WITHOUT an accompanying load weight, do tend to "bounce" or rebound more, and can affect handling and traction as an important matter of safety, and of course "comfort",.... although "comfort" isn't an important design consideration of tires. Comfort is that of vehicle purpose in chassis and suspension, including bike frames. While lower pressures ARE more comfortable in relation to weight load, they will also rebound less and provide a bigger and more constant contact with "road surface" that may improve handling relative to weight load. They will also flex more, that means "break down" and won't last long, not to mention internal movement of the tube which leads to a somewhat shortened life. That flex also generates damaging heat that contributes to "break down",.. though not much of an issue with low speed bikes and such. And tube movement can generate TONS of heat in many applications, and is why most all high-speed uses are tubeless. But that flex can ALSO improve "grip" on various surfaces, even though "grip" is a considered design factor of compound selection and tread/footprint design. That flex also stretches carcass fabrics INWARD over hazard objects that can cause an increase risk of punctures rather than deflecting away thru designed pressure (likely why I found a construction staple in-&-out thru the tread and not the "belts", as I noted previously).

Nothing really wrong with running lower PSI. The stated pressure ranges are well within specific design factors of a broad safety margin. I've jus preferred the longer life and fewer problems of higher pressure, including punctures, bruising, and other failures.



Wait... So according to the stick-to-the-max-pressure approach, I understand that having a fat-Ebike with Surly blackfloyd's (2 6 x 3 . 8 ) so I can run them at 15PSI or lower is a very, very bad idea on roads?
I have built that E-bike so I can carry luggage around town and when going long distances like traveling - The super wide tires are cushioning your entire bike mass including the panniers - something which cannot be achieved with a regular bike. (Full suspension bikes can only have seat-post rack as it's their only sprung-weight storage space)
Their absolute max pressure is 30PSI but I plan to use them at 15PSI on good roads, and 8-9PSI on roads which are badly maintained.
So I understand that with that huge contact area, especially at the lower pressures, I should carry lots of spare tubes, hole-plugs (worms), seal-in-a-can, etc?
I thought before starting this thread that the super low pressure on the fat-tire will make glass and other sharp objects less prone to interfering with the tire - just like if you roll a beach ball on shred-glass vs sitting on the ball (increased pressure) while doing so.
Last edited by thunderstorm80 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby motomech » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:54 pm

thunderstorm80 wrote:
motomech wrote:That's why one uses a plug kit designed for bicycle tires like the one I linked above.
"Fix-A-Flat in cans does not work. But since the tubeless tire will already have sealant in it, after the hole is plugged, all that is needed is to air it up.


From my experience, no sealant can plug damage from glass shreds or other sharp metals on the road. If you use another kind of sealant, I would like to know about it :D
Can that plug-kit for bicycle tire repair the above damages? And can it work with tubes or only with tubeless ? (I don't mind if the tube should be disposed after such repair, only so I can get home)

Of course sealant and/or running tubeless won't protect bicycle tires from damage from sharp road debris. But I deal almost exclusively w/ something most riders out West have experience with, Goat's Head thorns. I live in a bike friendly city and it does a pretty good job of keeping the bike lanes clean. But during the monsoon seasons, sand gets washed into the bike lanes and in that sand are the pesky little thorns. What makes them such a pain is their shape, they are kind of round w/ the pricklies coming off at all different angles. All the flats I have had, a half dozen or so in 8 years, have been Goat's Head thorns, except one, where a metal rod went thru the sidewall. Moped tires are thick enough to pretty much stay inflated w/ the thorns stuck in them, but I don't need moped whls and tires for any other reason and going with them is just moving by ebike further away from being a bicycle and I don't want that.
If road debris is a regular hazzard for you(where do you ride anyhow?), I would guess that motorcycle tires could deal w/ that. I was a MC mechanic for decades and it's rare for those tires to get cut damage(and w/ almost all glass sold these days being safety glass, glass cuts are even rarer). Almost always, flats on MC, moped and scooter tires are from nails, especially in areas of construction.
One of the reasons motorcycles went to tubeless is, in the case of a nail, it will deflate slower than a tube type and give the rider a chance to slow down and get off the road. This because a nail may go into a tire and stay there, but it usually rips the tube. I hope that the next flat I get will give me a little warning as well.
So for us Western riders who have to deal mostly w/ thorns, tubeless is a good way to go. After stopping w/ a low tire, there should be a trickle of sealant seeping out, which will quickly ID the hole. Then I will semi-inflate the tire, plug the hole, finish airing it up and be on my way in a minute. That's the plan anyway.
Not that going tubeless doesn't have some drawbacks. They are a bit of a pain to mount and when it's time to replace the tire, I'll have to use a new tube to split and make the rim airtight. Also, I have read where the serious MX bike guys have smacked the rear tire's sidewall into big rocks and such and knocked the tire off the bead, but I don't ride that hard off-road these days.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, 2.4 Holly Rollers run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-48A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 12S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 17A controller. 20 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84624&p=1237928#p1237928
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Re: How to prevent punctures once and for all!

Postby DRMousseau » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:16 am

thunderstorm80 wrote:Wait... So according to the stick-to-the-max-pressure approach, I understand that having a fat-Ebike with Surly blackfloyd's (2 6 x 3 . 8 ) so I can run them at 15PSI or lower is a very, very bad idea on roads?
I have built that E-bike so I can carry luggage around town and when going long distances like traveling - The super wide tires are cushioning your entire bike mass including the panniers - something which cannot be achieved with a regular bike. (Full suspension bikes can only have seat-post rack as it's their only sprung-weight storage space)
Their absolute max pressure is 30PSI but I plan to use them at 15PSI on good roads, and 8-9PSI on roads which are badly maintained.
So I understand that with that huge contact area, especially at the lower pressures, I should carry lots of spare tubes, hole-plugs (worms), seal-in-a-can, etc?
I thought before starting this thread that the super low pressure on the fat-tire will make glass and other sharp objects less prone to interfering with the tire - just like if you roll a beach ball on shred-glass vs sitting on the ball (increased pressure) while doing so.


Actually, the preconceived notion is that of two balloons being pressed on sharp objects,.... one being grossly underinflated, the other being inflated to max capacity. The underinflated one will likely survive much better IF, it can stretch and shape about the object without damage. And the same is true of bicycle tubes,... which is why these tubes are in protective tires!

THE PRIMARY PURPOSE of tires, is to provide an easily and economically repairable or replaceable bearing surface that is subject to wear and tear, while providing "shock" absorbing protection to the supporting wheel assembly and axle. Jus last night, I luckily repaired a damaged rim for the grandson's BMX,... the result of an underinflated tire that failed to fully resist the "shock" at a point of impact, that crushed the tire and tube, transferring the remaining energy into a point on the rim edge, and folding it over a bit. We were both surprised that it was reasonably repairable with serviceable satisfaction. While tire and tube were replaced, the possible cost of replacement to rim, wheel assembly, and/or the labor of re-lacing and such, instilled a sense of value in my grandson of the importance of proper tire inflation and closer regular inspection!

So is 15PSI or lower is a very, very bad idea on roads? No,.... unless other considerations of expected road surface, hazards, load, etc., suggest otherwise. Surly outright recommends the lowest listed inflation of manufactures suggested pressure range, with max rated pressure only to seat tires to the bead. That lowest keeps within the tire manufactures specs (liability protection),.. the minimum to maintain bead on SPEC RIMS at minimum expected loads, speeds, surfaces, etc., while providing maximum bicycle "product" protection(?) of major components (warranty protection). Will that pressure protect your rim against an unexpected pothole with a heavy load, or your axle and bearings against a high-speed curb smash??? Probably not, and nether will the warranty,... "typical" or "normal" use clause, ya know?! And tires are usually excepted with some exclusions too. But if your "normal", stay within Surly's guidelines, their warranty is protected!!! Now your low-pressured tires will be subject to a lot flexing and wear, internally and externally, and a shorter life,... but well within the tire manufactures warranty as well!!! And THAT'S what's most important to manufactures! But that doesn't protect YOUR investment and costs! And those Blackfloyd's aren't cheap tires!!! Nether are Surly rims!

Max psi of suggest tire pressure ranges is well within the limits of typical rim specs, unless brake surfaces are badly worn. It's also well within the limits of safety for expected maximum bike loads, temperature expectations, and speeds. "Fatter", bigger tires generally need less psi to meet those specs,... smaller, thin, "skinny" tires generally need a higher pressure range to maintain the safety needs expected.

Your choice of bigger "super wide" tires for cargo loads, is more a choice of "weight capacity". Bigger tires are capable of a greater weight load at a given inflation pressure than smaller tires at the same pressure and weight load, providing greater "shock" protection. So what's the lower limit??? eh? Should ya carry all that tube, tire and stuff for flats??? mmmm,.... should ya carry an extra rim or wheel assembly??? eh? I don't,... I jus keep my tires well inflated and stay hopeful, lol. No real problems yet.

My current road build under construction is designed with EXTREMELY heavy rear end load capability (hub motor, battery, adult rider AND adult passenger, plus extras? with mostly rear bias) ,... like max load in the near 400lb range on rear tire alone!!! I have many unique concerns here. No bicycle tire is truly capable of such loads and still provide the safety and protection needed as an e-bike. I also have unique considerations of rim choices, spokes (number, length, AND ga.), axle loads (length and dia), frame and dropouts, and jus SO much more! My choice of "super wide" tire has fallen into a 150/80x16" on a double-walled 20"x100 rim,... outside tire dia., is 26". Max rated pressure is 40psi@900lbs,.... I'll likely run about 20-30psi depending on MY load and what keeps the tire in a full profile for min rolling resistance. The heavy 5/16" tread alone (yup,.. run tubeless) should keep me pretty much "flatless"!!! LOL!!!

Regardless of the recommended pressure, most bicycle tires won't hold up to slashes and cuts very well, although some specialties DO have a special layer within, jus for such expected and often encountered incidents. Designed to limit the spread of cuts and tears and still maintain internal construction integrity.

And them dang "goat-heads", burs, thorns, spines and such,.... a heavy thick tread and tire surface is best! Anything else is jus "hopeful".
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