High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

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BerkshireEbiker
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High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by BerkshireEbiker » Dec 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Hello
I'm currently building a new ebike with a drop out of 150mm. I'm looking for a hub motor with around 8000 watts continuous power (not peak)....
Any recommendations?
Thank you in advance

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by dogman dan » Dec 10, 2017 8:04 am

I'd be looking at scooter motors, so you can use a high speed scooter tire.

You need to find the motor, then build the frame to fit IMO.

I'm sure my comment sucks, since I can only guess at what type of vehicle this is. Street or dirt? At 8000w, I sure would steer away from bike rims and tires.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by Alan B » Dec 10, 2017 8:31 am

8kw is about double the continuous power of the larger ebike hubmotors like Cromotor, etc. Definitely in the Motorcycle class. Peak power might be triple that, so 24kW peak.

Enertrac.com has 10kw rating continuous hubmotors, so start there. Perhaps a very large scooter motor.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by SlowCo » Dec 10, 2017 9:23 am

The combination of 150mm dropout and 8kW continuous will prove difficult, if not impossible, to find.
A QS273 V3 motor has 8kW continuous but is around 190mm wide between axle flats. Maybe ask QS to turn down the disk brake side and have the axle shortened? Otherwise, if you can, do that yourself or have a local machinist do it for you.
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/8000w-s ... otorcycle/

Although at that point I wouldn't bother with a spoked rim anymore and just get the 17" cast hub motor wheel:
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/17inch- ... otorcycle/

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by BerkshireEbiker » Dec 10, 2017 6:33 pm

dogman dan wrote:
Dec 10, 2017 8:04 am
I'd be looking at scooter motors, so you can use a high speed scooter tire.

You need to find the motor, then build the frame to fit IMO.

I'm sure my comment sucks, since I can only guess at what type of vehicle this is. Street or dirt? At 8000w, I sure would steer away from bike rims and tires.
That makes perfect sense, find the motor then match a frame the will fit that motor. Thank you

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by BerkshireEbiker » Dec 10, 2017 6:36 pm

Alan B wrote:
Dec 10, 2017 8:31 am
8kw is about double the continuous power of the larger ebike hubmotors like Cromotor, etc. Definitely in the Motorcycle class. Peak power might be triple that, so 24kW peak.

Enertrac.com has 10kw rating continuous hubmotors, so start there. Perhaps a very large scooter motor.
Thank you AlanB I will check out Enertrac.com

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by BerkshireEbiker » Dec 10, 2017 6:39 pm

SlowCo wrote:
Dec 10, 2017 9:23 am
The combination of 150mm dropout and 8kW continuous will prove difficult, if not impossible, to find.
A QS273 V3 motor has 8kW continuous but is around 190mm wide between axle flats. Maybe ask QS to turn down the disk brake side and have the axle shortened? Otherwise, if you can, do that yourself or have a local machinist do it for you.
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/8000w-s ... otorcycle/

Although at that point I wouldn't bother with a spoked rim anymore and just get the 17" cast hub motor wheel:
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/17inch- ... otorcycle/
That's exactly what I'm finding impossible to find. All 8Kw continuous motor's have a wider drop out than 150.....hmmmm what to do??

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by speedmd » Dec 10, 2017 8:21 pm

At this power level, you will need to add some sturdy torque arms and most likely like to have some additional wheelbase also. It may be a good opportunity to think this through with the motor you would most want in mind.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by SlowCo » Dec 11, 2017 4:49 am

Basically it isn't ebike territory anymore when you want 8kW continuous...
These are electric motorcycle hub motors so you should use a motorcycle frame and swing arm. Or if you have the Enduro type ebike frame with steel swing arm you can weld different end plates to it to get the 190mm dropout width that you need.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by dogman dan » Dec 11, 2017 7:48 am

What to do is make your motorcycle, out of motorcycle parts. Or like we said, scooter stuff.

Not saying the whole thing, take a look at John in CR's ride for a starting point. You'll be welding of course, to make the scooter or motorcycle swing arm attach to a modified, or custom made bike frame.

Or just get realistic, and figure on 5000w. Plenty for near highway speeds and motorcycle like acceleration. This would make you carry a stupidly large battery anyway, if you wanted highway speeds for more than 10 miles or so.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by Mobilicity » Dec 14, 2017 7:58 pm

BerkshireEbiker wrote:
Dec 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Hello
I'm currently building a new ebike with a drop out of 150mm. I'm looking for a hub motor with around 8000 watts continuous power (not peak)....
Any recommendations?
Thank you in advance
A rookie here so hopefully this information may be of use to you; I received this week an order of two QS 8oooW 273 50H V3 hub motors w/ two QSKLS96501-8080H controllers. The controllers are fairly sized (a least a foot long or so) w/ serious heatsinks, and the hubs are quite noticeably larger in diameter and wider than typical e-bicycle hubs with some thick wiring cable. The hubs could possibly be used on a wide strong bicycle rim customized with 12g or 10g spokes on a custom built reinforced bicycle frame w/ reinforced dropouts, or to be used on moped and/or motorcycle rims if you can find motorcycle rims that are not made of steel but aluminium [see these big hubs on a couple of Russian's e-bicycles/e-peds that have custom made strong frames that sure don't look like typical bicycle frames but more like moped type strength framing or light dirt bike type framing www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_G6T2JSFNQ ] . Like Dogman Dan, SlowCo, speedmd, and alan b were telling you, when you are going to run powerful motors more than 5oooW, it's more probable to break 150mm dropouts on bicycle frames unless they are reinforced correctly to handle more power or it's a custom frame. Dogman Dan has a good idea about finding the motors then building the frame to fit since that's what i am already looking to get custom done on my project. And SlowCo's suggestion is a good idea also. I have set of X5404 CrystalLyte motors and they are not as big of course as the QS273's so if you go with 8oooW motors it does make sense like speedmd suggested for sturdy torque arms, maybe doubling them up if you have room and skill to do so w/o causing problems with fitting on disk brakes, also custom frame modifications for reinforcing the sway arms then what is usually available on most bicycles unless you can get a really well made thick titanium tubed bicycle frame using torque arms on that or custom build and/or fabricate your e-bicycle frame with thicker frame tubing etc or reinforce it or using parts from a moped frame etc or something like SlowCo suggested. The "BigBoy" linked below is good example custom frame with strength.

Hopefully these links may be of some use to you with what you asked, in case you are interested;

www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors
www.electricbike.com/qulbix-raptor/
www.myronsmopeds.com/category/wheel/tires/
www.laebike.com/collections/moped-wheel ... -hub-motor
www.dimecitycycles.com/motorcycle-parts ... -rims.html
www.scooterparts4less.com
www.motorbicycling.com/threads/moped-ti ... ims.49183/
https://www.niagaracycle.com

And if you want some rigid bicycle rims if you end up going with 5oooW e-hubs, these guys in Germany [Classic-Cycle] have some good choices for rims and carry other related things and some guys have used their rims on 75ooW applications as shown below.

https://www.classic-cycle.de/en/wheel-and-tire/ - They offer 26mm, 67mm rims and 80mm, 82mm, 100mm, 102mm, 132mm wide type fat boy bicycle rims, and some are double-walled not all with also offering as required fat boy tires and other parts etc. Here's one example from the online bicycle store "Classic Cycle" w/ their gallery link below with their 100mm wide double-walled bicycle rims looking like an old cafe racer w/ a little blurb about what they offered [has no pedals for pedalling, so can it still be called a velocipede / e-bi-ke / bi-cycle? doesn't seem so, maybe e-vehicles like the big boy can simply be called an e-cycle (electro-cycle) or bi-ev (my word for 2 wheeled electric vehicle that is non-pedal power) since it uses few bicycle parts];

https://www.classic-cycle.de/en/all/165 ... 19#gallery
http://www.bigboy.bike/ -- up to 75oow power / up to 1ookm distance (additional up to 200km) / with 5okm/h cruising speed (road legal) / up to 140km/h possible speed (off road) / weight is 52-56kg (115 lbs)


As for me, i need to find a guy in Toronto who knows how to lace moped/motor rims to e-hubs. If one can't be found to lace these for me locally it will be very frustrating and might have to sell them locally since shipping would be expensive, these are brand new still in the styrofoam which include the powerful controllers with the necessary connectors etc. I've also included a pic of one of the 8oooW 273's i received.

Hopefully some of this was helpful in some way or another.

** Side note, the term velocipede is technically linguistically accurate instead of 'bicycle'.. but of course, there are a strong portion of modern english speaking folks on ES and in the world who don't really care about technical accuracy on such things. **
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QS273-50H-V3.JPG

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by amberwolf » Dec 15, 2017 3:56 am

Mobilicity wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 7:58 pm
As for me, i need to find a guy in Toronto who knows how to lace moped/motor rims to e-hubs.
It's not difficult to learn lacing; the hardest part to actually do is truing and if you don't need to use rim brakes then lateral (axial) truing is less important (making it easier as radial truing is what you'd concentrate on).

There's a lot of threads and posts about lacing / building wheels, picking out spokes, rims, etc., if you look around the forums. (also pages on other sites) That would give you a good start on what to do, and of course you can always post questions in one of the threads about it.

Plus, if you built the wheel, you'd also know how to fix it if something went wrong on the road later, rather than having to take the whole thing to the shop that built it. ;)

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by Mobilicity » Jan 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Greetings Amberwolf.. just noticed this response you left.

Ok not difficult to do lacing w/ the hardest part being the truing. Thanks. I was wondering since you stated if you don't use rim brakes, what kind of brakes could you use then?

Much appreciated for your advice on looking on the threads on ES about lacing and building etc and looking elsewhere asking questions here also.

You are quite right obviously that if i built it myself, i'd know how to fix it instead of needing to take it to a shop, but the thing is, i got much on my plate already and to find time to learn how to lace wheels, i mean if i had more time sure, but i was hoping this step of the project i could delegate it to the professionals. Much appreciated nonetheless for your help on this, thanks again.

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Re: High wattage hub motor for 150mm drop out required

Post by amberwolf » Jan 13, 2018 2:20 am

If you're using moped/mc rims, you're almost certainly not using rim brakes, as those rims are not made for that (no machined braking surface, generally). You *could* still use rim brakes on them, but you'd have to at least get teh paint off the rim surface, and probably the rim won't align with wherever the brake arms are on your frame/fork (because most moped/mc rims aren't the same diameter as bicycle rims, even if the wheel with tire is close to the same diameter).


Most people using motors that big on those rims would be using disc brakes. Which kind will depend on what mounts the mtoors have on them, and what mounts the frame has on it, etc.

Some poeple might use roller brakes (whcih are a kind of drum brake) if the hub has the fitting for it or if you can get an adapter from whatever the hub does have to the kind of roller brake you get.

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