MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by John in CR » Aug 04 2015 11:17pm

Samd wrote:Sure. For a given length of wire.

I tend to go with Barent's point earlier though.
Cut them short.
As short as possible and as large as practical.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by macribs » Aug 05 2015 5:37am

John in CR wrote:
As short as possible and as large as practical.

1+ *thumbs up*

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 05 2015 11:23pm

Stielz wrote:A question for you guys who have sprayed a rust protection enamel on the internals of you motor,

Would this product be suitable for that purpose?
https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catal ... eat-ultra/

And a snapshot from the datasheet
The attachment Capture.PNG is no longer available
Thinking the the black color would give improved heat dissipation from higher IR radiation
Well yes it resist temp but no spec on the voltage insulation.. The main use of these emal for motor winding protection are Voltage isolation, holfing all strands tight together ( bonding effect) and as well prevent rust and magnet from unbonding.

Curiously i just finished painting my two motor for the 2WD project in the last hour. I also added DP420 strong epoxy to hold the magnet to the rotor ring and seal from water intrusion under the magnet flat surface and the concave curved surface of the rotor.

I have treated All my hub motor that way and ALL still work really well today even with 10kW+ and over 150lb-ft torque on the magnets and no rust inside and all are vented and i dont fear any rain!

Next steps: paint the magnets, upgrade phase wires size , install the custom FWD 20mm axel on the front motor!

Doc
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by macribs » Aug 05 2015 11:39pm

So is the red coat sort of a primer, I was under the impression that you now do flat black paint due to heat removal?

For the magnets, did you just give the magnets a light coat with epoxy and then build up layers in the mid section to assure concave form?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Aug 06 2015 7:51am

macribs wrote:So is the red coat sort of a primer, I was under the impression that you now do flat black paint due to heat removal?
Only the insides of the Hub covers get painted Flat Black. This is where you want the IR heat to go, not to the stator itself, which is what is generating the heat in the first place.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 06 2015 9:27am

Well the black mat paint is good to emitt and receive IR radiation so painting the cover inside, outside and as well as the stator would be the best. but in my case i will use these motor for 1/8 and 1/4 mile race mainly.. So thermal dissipation on 10 or 15 sec run wold not be ameliorated alot.. It more a matter for long ride!.. for my drag race setup i will coll the motor with air blower thru the holes between races.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 11 2015 11:14pm

I am in process to replace the poor 14 or 16 gauge phase wires on my 3T now and i also discovered that BOTH are 20 strands and not 21 as advertised! :evil: :roll:

Is there anybody that REALLY have 21 strands on the 3T or is it wrong information?

btw I have measured the strand size and it is 24 AWG so 20 of them are equivalent to one gauge 11.

Fortunatly these motor are cheap! but next time i will pay 100$ more and avoid bad surprize and get the Cro or equivalent ( 205 50H)!

When i talk about bad surprise i mean, loose strands ( not properly tightened), 2 brokend strands ( one of the phase was higher ohm and 2 strands was broken), getting and paying for 3T 21 strands and get both with 20 strands :roll: poor choice of phase wire ( 14 or 16 AWG) but the winding equiv is 11AWG.

But as the ebike simulator say, they seem to outperform the 5403 in term of efficiency and power output... i just hope these will hold all that power great like my 5403 does easy!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Samd » Aug 11 2015 11:33pm

Yep, I thought it was well known that they had some issue with the earlier 20 strands. Most should be 21 now.

What voltage and amps are you running at 10kw? I'm guessing you must be getting less than about 65% efficiency below about 50 kph? I wouldve thought a Cro was a better choice anyway for 10kw - you must be making an awful lot of waste heat due to a mismatch between physical motor size and a 10kw input? This would force you into some rather big batteries?
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 12 2015 12:08am

Samd wrote:Yep, I thought it was well known that they had some issue with the earlier 20 strands. Most should be 21 now.

What voltage and amps are you running at 10kw? I'm guessing you must be getting less than about 65% efficiency below about 50 kph? I wouldve thought a Cro was a better choice anyway for 10kw - you must be making an awful lot of waste heat due to a mismatch between physical motor size and a 10kw input? This would force you into some rather big batteries?
Well not really. I'm pushing 16kW into the 5403 and it seem to take that really well without any overheat. If the MXUS is more efficient and give higher power output according to the ebike simulator, the motor should not be really in trouble for the purpose i will use these for: Drag racing... burst power short time lightweight motor.

The below 50kmh last less than 2 sec so i dont really care about efficiency in that region. But after about 80kmh high power last very long... well couple second...

i'm using 22s and 143A phase ( about 12.5kW)

By using the MXUS i'm saving about 20 pounds total for both wheels. And replacing the 1.8kWh NMC cells by the 366Wh pack i will also be saving about 25 pounds so total 45 pounds lighter on the drag bike witch represent 17% less total weight. The lightweight of the MXUS and the power capability are the only reason for the actual choice.. otherwise i would have used the Cro. Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Samd » Aug 12 2015 12:12am

Doctorbass wrote:
Samd wrote:Yep, I thought it was well known that they had some issue with the earlier 20 strands. Most should be 21 now.

What voltage and amps are you running at 10kw? I'm guessing you must be getting less than about 65% efficiency below about 50 kph? I wouldve thought a Cro was a better choice anyway for 10kw - you must be making an awful lot of waste heat due to a mismatch between physical motor size and a 10kw input? This would force you into some rather big batteries?
Well not really. I'm pushing 16kW into the 5403 and it seem to take that really well without any overheat. If the MXUS is more efficient and give higher power output according to the ebike simulator, the motor should not be really in trouble for the purpose i will use these for: Drag racing... burst power short time lightweight motor.

The below 50kmh last less than 2 sec so i dont really care about efficiency in that region. But after about 80kmh high power last very long... well couple second...

i'm using 22s and 143A phase ( about 12.5kW)

By using the MXUS i'm saving about 20 pounds total for both wheels. And replacing the 1.8kWh NMC cells by the 366Wh pack i will also be saving about 25 pounds so total 45 pounds lighter on the drag bike witch represent 17% less total weight. The lightweight of the MXUS and the power capability are the only reason for the actual choice.. otherwise i would have used the Cro. Doc
I'm confused Doc, you mean 143 phase amps, therefore about say 60 battery amps?
Into each wheel or total?
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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teslanv   100 MW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Aug 12 2015 12:41am

Doctorbass wrote:I am in process to replace the poor 14 or 16 gauge phase wires on my 3T now and i also discovered that BOTH are 20 strands and not 21 as advertised! :evil: :roll:

Is there anybody that REALLY have 21 strands on the 3T or is it wrong information?

btw I have measured the strand size and it is 24 AWG so 20 of them are equivalent to one gauge 11.

Fortunatly these motor are cheap! but next time i will pay 100$ more and avoid bad surprize and get the Cro or equivalent ( 205 50H)!

When i talk about bad surprise i mean, loose strands ( not properly tightened), 2 brokend strands ( one of the phase was higher ohm and 2 strands was broken), getting and paying for 3T 21 strands and get both with 20 strands :roll: poor choice of phase wire ( 14 or 16 AWG) but the winding equiv is 11AWG.

But as the ebike simulator say, they seem to outperform the 5403 in term of efficiency and power output... i just hope these will hold all that power great like my 5403 does easy!

Doc
Doc,

Do you anticipate any problems running these motors in the 3Kw to 6Kw range that they are rated for?
DD Hubs, Batteries, Controllers & Custom Ebikes.
http://westcoastelectrics.com
West Coast Electric Cycles
Bellevue, WA
USA

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by John in CR » Aug 12 2015 6:40am

Doctorbass wrote: i'm using 22s and 143A phase ( about 12.5kW)
That's not how you compute power. For peak power input for a short run you multiply peak battery current times the minimum voltage, both reported by the CA. Phase current limit tells you the torque limit (Kt X phase current, which is the same as (9.549/Kv in rpm/V X phase current). Power output = torque X rpm , so you would need to know phase current across the rpm spectrum to determine the peak.

You mentioned before that you were using batteries tested to be 100C, are those Turnigy Nanotech's or did you find something better? If it's something better can you tell us more info? Also, for the drag race be careful not to use too small a pack, since even if sag low voltage can drop significantly due to SOC near the end. eg If you're pulling 30kw from a 366wh pack it will be depleted by 34% in 15 seconds, which will be the equivalent of 7-8V of extra sag near the end of a 1/4 mile, when you need the highest voltage possible . Are you just running a 1/8th mile instead?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 12 2015 9:43am

teslanv wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:I am in process to replace the poor 14 or 16 gauge phase wires on my 3T now and i also discovered that BOTH are 20 strands and not 21 as advertised! :evil: :roll:

Is there anybody that REALLY have 21 strands on the 3T or is it wrong information?

btw I have measured the strand size and it is 24 AWG so 20 of them are equivalent to one gauge 11.

Fortunatly these motor are cheap! but next time i will pay 100$ more and avoid bad surprize and get the Cro or equivalent ( 205 50H)!

When i talk about bad surprise i mean, loose strands ( not properly tightened), 2 brokend strands ( one of the phase was higher ohm and 2 strands was broken), getting and paying for 3T 21 strands and get both with 20 strands :roll: poor choice of phase wire ( 14 or 16 AWG) but the winding equiv is 11AWG.

But as the ebike simulator say, they seem to outperform the 5403 in term of efficiency and power output... i just hope these will hold all that power great like my 5403 does easy!

Doc
Doc,

Do you anticipate any problems running these motors in the 3Kw to 6Kw range that they are rated for?
Probably not as these appear to be more efficient than the actual 5403 i use with 12-16kW burst. These MXUS are only for the drag racing 2WD ebike so short burst of max 16-17sec. their thermal mass should be able to handle that. I 'm only disapointed aout these little détails that could be ameliorated at low cost in the production of these motor. The QC of the Crystalyte seem to be better from my experience and i was hoping that these would be better than the Crystalyte.
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 12 2015 10:05am

John in CR wrote:That's not how you compute power. For peak power input for a short run you multiply peak battery current times the minimum voltage, both reported by the CA.
That’s what I did John, Min voltage x max batt current ( 87V x 143A = 12.5kW) but i'm not using the C-A as the reported batt current are not very accurate at burst power. The Adaptto controller have his own display that calculate everything really well. :wink:
John in CR wrote: Phase current limit tells you the torque limit (Kt X phase current, which is the same as (9.549/Kv in rpm/V X phase current). Power output = torque X rpm , so you would need to know phase current across the rpm spectrum to determine the peak.
Yeah I think that due to the flux weakening that the Adaptto does, the phase current remain high on a large rpm range. Once the bemf of the motor reach battery voltage the timing advance compensate and fake a “higher kv” due to the new timimg witch continu pushing current to the motor for faster speed. The Adaptto also have ind timing and PWR timing tuning. I love that controller!
John in CR wrote: You mentioned before that you were using batteries tested to be 100C, are those Turnigy Nanotech's or did you find something better?
Those are better! These are Lonestars cells supplied by John Metric an epic man from the NEDRA (National Electric Drag Racing Association) in the US. He built a Miata that does 8.9 sec on the ¼ mile using these cells. These cells was used by the military and are not unclassified and available. I wrote about these in my other thread about the NYX
John in CR wrote: If it's something better can you tell us more info?
YES ! as well !
John in CR wrote: Also, for the drag race be careful not to use too small a pack, since even if sag low voltage can drop significantly due to SOC near the end. eg If you're pulling 30kw from a 366wh pack it will be depleted by 34% in 15 seconds, which will be the equivalent of 7-8V of extra sag near the end of a 1/4 mile, when you need the highest voltage possible . Are you just running a 1/8th mile instead?


That’s an excellent point John and I ‘m aware of all that. I will have to test first at low power to see if the theory meet reality. But for sure I want to get max power with minimal ebike weight and battery weight so I have to find the optimum. I did that back in 2009 for my speed record when I was using the A123 26650. I calculated the best number of cells vs output power vs weight. I want to go for the 1/8 mile more but will try also the ¼ mile. The ¼ mile would require very high speed witch I’m not sure I could reach easy without destroying something.


Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 12 2015 3:57pm

OK i finally got my custom FRONT suspension motor axel finished!

The Stark & Bros machining shop here dis awsome work! ( Will definitively include them in my next projects!)

So i got my 20mm dia Stainless Steel axel with keyway slot, hole for the axel C-clip groove and all press fit and slide fit diameter just perfect! I also asked for a larger diameter adapter like the White Brothers fork specificely have on the right side. I also installed larger I.D. ( 20mm) bearing on the side cover.

Oh btw just in case you ask, I will use the clamping force of the fork dropout as well as a big dowel pin to transfer all torque from the axel to the fork base.

Here is couple pics compare to the original axel:
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CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Samd » Aug 12 2015 6:03pm

That axle idea is rad - well done!

I still am thinking of some O shaped washers to do the same for a lower power install. Fit the fork legs first then feed them up into the crowns.

A few posts back I think you said phase current = 143 A, not battery current. This is what threw me.
Throwing this in the simulator for a 3T motor shows a pretty nice flat efficiency curve between 70kph and 100kph. After that it does drop off fast though!
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by macribs » Aug 12 2015 6:43pm

Samd wrote:That axle idea is rad - well done!

I still am thinking of some O shaped washers to do the same for a lower power install. Fit the fork legs first then feed them up into the crowns.

A few posts back I think you said phase current = 143 A, not battery current. This is what threw me.
Throwing this in the simulator for a 3T motor shows a pretty nice flat efficiency curve between 70kph and 100kph. After that it does drop off fast though!
How did you do the 2wd black cruiser? Torque arms up front?

Also samd check your pm's about the controller ;)

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Rix » Aug 12 2015 7:05pm

Oh btw just in case you ask, I will use the clamping force of the fork dropout as well as a big dowel pin to transfer all torque from the axel to the fork base.
If it was someone else, I would have asked. But because you are Doc Bass, AKA The King of Sting, Duke of Cool, Rockford of Annihilation, I knew you had it covered :mrgreen:

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 12 2015 8:51pm

Samd wrote:That axle idea is rad - well done!

I still am thinking of some O shaped washers to do the same for a lower power install. Fit the fork legs first then feed them up into the crowns.

A few posts back I think you said phase current = 143 A, not battery current. This is what threw me.
Throwing this in the simulator for a 3T motor shows a pretty nice flat efficiency curve between 70kph and 100kph. After that it does drop off fast though!
Yes 143A batt current and probably up to 160A if i drop the voltage to 20s

The adaptto timing advance feature continu pushing the motor beyond the normal max speed and can acheive up to 30% faster when properly tuned.

It is all a matter of availlable thrust at every speed you want to cover vs the thrust required to get to that speed. If it take 120lb thrust at 130km/h for an ebike and that i only have 60 available, atbthat speed then with two motor i would, get enough.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by ecologymagnet » Aug 15 2015 8:05am

I doubt if convert my mxus 3000 from 18S 80A to 30S 80A. (Nanotech 8000 25/50C)

My controller is a 24 Fets 4115 Greentime

Pros and cons?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by madin88 » Aug 19 2015 4:16am

thats a nice axle. looking forward to see your 2WD NYX running :twisted:
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by louis raaijmakers » Aug 19 2015 10:12am

Hi es,
I have the Mxus 3000 v1.
And unfortunaly i burned the windings with 110 phase and being stupid... :?
but is it possible to get a new v2 stator? a 4 turn to be accurate.
I have e-mailed mxus but still haven't got a reply.

Greetings Louis

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louis raaijmakers   100 W

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by louis raaijmakers » Aug 19 2015 10:14am

louis raaijmakers wrote:Hi es,
I have the Mxus 3000 v1.
And unfortunaly i burned the windings with 110 phase and being stupid... :?
but is it possible to get a new v2 (or a v1) stator? a 4 turn to be accurate. otherwise i will have it re-wind.
I have e-mailed mxus but still haven't got a reply.

Greetings Louis

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Aug 22 2015 8:01pm

I wonder if the 110 phase current did it in, or the ratio.

I am programming my controller, I want to be ready to rock-n-roll once my battery holders come in. Even though its just under 10Ah, not much but it will do.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
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Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Aug 24 2015 2:02am

I am trying to find TeslaNV's work on max phase amps for each wind of motor and how long they would last in the 3T, 4T, 5T, 6T.
I've spent about an hour now, advanced searching, and going through pages and pages and cant find nothing.
I know for a fact its somewhere, I cant remember key words, I've tried "phase amps" "21x4T phase" and others all under author "teslanv" with keywords, and just teslanv, then subjects like "Ebike Technical".

I know it was something like 6T was 80A, 3T was 150A or more, 3T was like 200A.

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