What could be wrong with my bike?

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.
Post Reply
patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 05, 2018 1:20 am

After 12000 trouble free miles I seem to have my first bike gremlin :(

This morning everything seemed normal, but on one pull off dead stop the bike seemed to start much rougher. This is unusual for me on a flat road, it might happen much more slightly on a steep hill. At speed it seemed smooth again, but my max amperage dropped from +-50A to +- 45A, with a corresponding drop in power. The rough starts seemed to stay with me.

I'm running a cromotor and 18fet lyen, any ideas on what to start checking or should I dismantle the bike and get my controller to Lyen to give it a once over.

Here's the full specs on my bike: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=45514

Thanks
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 24197
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 05, 2018 1:46 am

Rough motor operation usually means a hall or phase connection problem, anywhere between the controller and the motor. Can be wires broken inside the insulation, contacts backed out or bent, etc.

Sometimes it's an electronics problem; bad hall sensor, blown FETs, etc.

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 05, 2018 1:49 am

Ah okay, so likely not the controller then. I'm not an electrical guru by a long shot, is there anyway to test the hall sensors?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 24197
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 05, 2018 1:59 am

Sure, there's good methods for testing those and other things over at http://ebikes.ca in the Learn / Troubleshooting tab.

But first, as I said, check all your connections and wires--they are MUCH more likely to be the problem.

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 05, 2018 5:46 am

Another piece of info if it helps, on my ride to work I used about 20% more AH than normal. Visual inspection of the cables seemed okay at a glance, will look in more detail when I'm home.
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34426
Joined: May 17, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by dogman dan » Jan 05, 2018 8:41 am

Might look first at the battery to controller contacts. You might be having part of your problem there.

Then look for obvious stuff, clear problems with the plugs to the motor, then bother with checking halls.

It might just be the controller after all. A motor/controller/ throttle tester is what you need to make looking at all that easy.

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 05, 2018 9:35 am

patrickza wrote:
Jan 05, 2018 5:46 am
Another piece of info if it helps, on my ride to work I used about 20% more AH than normal. Visual inspection of the cables seemed okay at a glance, will look in more detail when I'm home.
False alarm on the battery usage, just got home with normal AH used.

The pulloffs from standstill are very very rough, I'm now thinking it's hall sensor related. At speed things feel normal apart from the 5 or so amps max current that's missing.

I might have a tester in storage somewhere, will go try find it.
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 24197
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 05, 2018 1:44 pm

A visual inspection of cables won't likely show you much, unless it's a backed out or corroded contact or obvious disconnection or break or wire damage. Most of the time, this is exactly what happens.

For the rest, you'd have to continuity test the wires and connections, preferably with the connnectors still plugged into each other so you're testing the actual connection being made there, to know that they're ok. For the latter, you'd have to get to teh wires inside the cable sheath, and poke your probes into the conductors inside the wire insulation, one meter lead at the motor end, and one meter lead at the controller end.

User avatar
skeetab5780
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1882
Joined: Jun 15, 2009 10:58 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by skeetab5780 » Jan 05, 2018 1:49 pm

Sounds like a bad hall possibly, it will start rough in some positions but not all, and sometimes act funny when it cannot sense the stator position during use.

User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 11962
Joined: Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by fechter » Jan 05, 2018 2:59 pm

I agree it sounds like one of the hall signals is missing.
I would unplug the hall sensor cable between the motor and controller and inspect carefully. Sometimes just unplugging and reconnecting a connector will fix a problem.

It is possible the actual hall sensor went bad, but this is rare unless grossly overheated.
It is also possible the controller is bad, but also unlikely.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 06, 2018 6:26 am

Okay so I checked the hall cables by unplugging them one at a time. Unplugging any of the 3 colours maks the bike barely go, so I think all the halls are fine. I also had the bike upside down and the wheel was able to move extremely slowly. Next I unplugged all the phase wires. They all had some dirt in them which I cleaned out with a Q tip and some alcohol. No change there.

Pulling off slowly seems smooth, if I try pull off fast it makes huge vibrations and noise.

What could I check next?

I need to change the rear tyre anyway, so I'll remove the covers to see if there's anything obvious, anything in particular I should look for when I do that?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

jonnybump
1 W
1 W
Posts: 50
Joined: Jan 31, 2015 8:48 am

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by jonnybump » Jan 06, 2018 6:42 am

I'm having this problem at the moment too. I had the same issue a while back too - back then it was a water ingress issue and the hall wires were shorting against each other.

This time though it's intermittent and was not easily identified - and as someone said in a previous post is down to a wire that has broken down within its insulation. If I bend the hall wire at just the right point, the problem goes away. I'll be fitting a new hall wire later today.

What I found was that if I lifted the back wheel and used the throttle, initially the wheel would rotate backwards for a fraction of a second. If I was sitting on the bike, causing a far greater load, the bike would almost kangaroo, kind of like if I was trying to pull away from a standstill in 5th gear in a diesel car!

Jon

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 06, 2018 9:59 am

Here's a video showing everything is perfect without load:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9vvhofSaog

Edit: and here's a video from ypedal where his motor behaves similarly to mine. Ypedal are you here? Any idea what went wrong there?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 24197
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 06, 2018 1:15 pm

What does a wire continuity test show? (including a test from the wire to the contact tip)

User avatar
alec
10 W
10 W
Posts: 83
Joined: Dec 01, 2017 5:57 pm
Location: Yosemite, Calif.

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by alec » Jan 06, 2018 10:29 pm

I have a Greyborg and Cromotor V3 just like you and am going through an identical issue.

I’m fairly certain, up to 95% sure, it’s the hall sensors inside your Cromotor or the wiring leading up to them. There’s certainly an off chance that it’s an internal issue inside your Lyen controller or something different altogether but that would be a bet not in your favor.

You likely have a secondary set hall cables coming from your Cromotor. Have you tried switching over to them and seeing if the issue resolves itself? The colors will be different, a combination of purple, gray, orange, black, etc. If you post a photo here I can help you determine which one is which.

You can test your hall sensors. However, you can’t just stick 5V and ground on the red and black cables from your power supply and poke around with the multimeter on the signal wires. You’ll need a pull-up resistor to get proper readings. So the best way is to intercept the multimeter leads within the JST connector into your controller. I’ve had success taking bits of un-melted rosin core solder and jamming them deep into the JST pins and then hooking alligator clips onto it.

Good luck!
❝ With great power comes an even greater PG&E bill.
12kW+ Greyborg, Cromotor V3, SSC96150
sabvoton.wire.bike [unofficial user's guide]
wire.bike [personal projects]

User avatar
alec
10 W
10 W
Posts: 83
Joined: Dec 01, 2017 5:57 pm
Location: Yosemite, Calif.

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by alec » Jan 06, 2018 10:30 pm

PS - The correct replacement sensors for the Cromotor are Honeywell SS441A-S. You can use the SS441A’s but you’ll have longer “legs” off the sensors to deal with. Make sure they’re unipolar and not bipolar. I made this mistake and am having to replace them for the second time right now.
❝ With great power comes an even greater PG&E bill.
12kW+ Greyborg, Cromotor V3, SSC96150
sabvoton.wire.bike [unofficial user's guide]
wire.bike [personal projects]

patrickza
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Re: What could be wrong with my bike?

Post by patrickza » Jan 07, 2018 12:49 am

My cromotor is one of the originals, version 1. I'm going to try this to test the hall sensors soon: http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HallSens ... gFinal.pdf

Let me know if your cable swap solves the issue.

I see the link to ypedal didn't get posted earlier, my bike sounds very similar to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xBrJ_aXWRCk
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

Post Reply